Got a call from a previous client. It seems that a door we installed last fall started leaking today from all the rain we’re getting.
First off, I know that this problem largely stems from our hiring choices last year when we had some volume that we *thought* required hiring more workers. We’re smarter for it now and I think the company is better off.Regardless, I’ve identified three problems with this door.1. There is some water creeping by the head flashing and pooling on the head jamb.2. Water is coming in where an electrician installed an outlet about 12″ away from the side of the door and did not do anything to seal the hole he made in the concrete.3. The concrete sill is out of level by about 3/4″ in 6′. The door was set level and we tried to use silicone to fill the gap. Here is a pic:View ImageI have been wanting to try out Jamsill pans for a while and this door is the perfect candidate. We really should have been using them all along, but now we know.My question is how should we proceed? I think the door needs to be pulled, the sill pan installed, the head flashing remedied, and the door reinstalled with careful attention.Should we worry about the out of level concrete sill? Possibly use some non-shrinking grout to level it off?It appears that the manufacturer does not recommend installing any type of caulking or sealant under the pan. Should I pay attention to them?I need to get a precise measurement from the inside of the door to the edge of the sill to make sure the largest Jamsill pan (6-5/8″) will work. If it is greater that 6-5/8″ should we try cutting the Jamsill and splicing somehow or would it be better to bend up a piece of AL and set it on some tar paper on the concrete? I guess we could use gutter sealant or something similar to adhere the ears of the site-bent pan together?As you can tell, I have many questions. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Replies
Jon, I think you've identified the problem at the top of the door, but not completely the one at the bottom. The sill looks like it needs an extender to get it out over the edge of the concrete. A jamsill type flashing will keep water out of the house, but won't keep the bottom of your door sill and frame dry. It doesn't appear to me that your jambs are too large for the 6-5/8" flashing, but I don't think you're going to solve the problem without extending the sill on the door so that water can drip off the front edge without running back under the door. I think your door supplier may have an extender that may snap or slide into the existing sill.
Leaking door - the dreaded call back.... I hate it when that happens.
That's why, budget permitting, I'd like all exterior doors to be under a porch roof. Don't pinch me though - I don't want to be awakened from my dream... :-)
Having the exterior paving that close in height to the threshold doesn't help - with all the splash up, your talking boat building techniques... Did you say concrete 3/4" out of level? this is turning into a nightmare...
I've seen those jam seals at my BS - kind of pricey for a cheap piece of plastic that is little more than packing material... But, as long as we are in the do-over mode, I'd definitely go for it. If it doesn't fit, the best thing would be to make a pan out of copper. Yea - we BTers always have the most expensive solutions ;=) just so I can thing I added a little value, here is a pic :-)
Edit:
Woops.... wrong pic - see next post
Edited 9/2/2006 6:35 am ET by Matt
pic attached
Matt,That pan looks nice...I'm a nitwit when it comes to metal work.A heads up though, the door in Jon's pic has an Aluminum threshold......set that baby on copper and she'll corrode right before your eyes. Cu/Al is a bad combo:http://www.mtec.or.th/th/research/famd/corro%5Chowmetals.htm
Where does one get a sill extender?I know it sounds dumb, but I had a Pella exterior door installed (yes, by the idiots at Lowes). The storm door (Pella as well) is literally not able to "touch" anything at the bottom because it sticks out past the exterior door sill. I figured I could remedy this by putting a 2x4 pressure treated piece of wood under it (due to furring strips on the outside of the house when the vinyl siding was installed in 1972, that's about where the exterior siding comes out, so it would be "flush" then).But I figured I'd rather have a sill extender to sit on top of the 2x4, rather than just paint it or something.
Good pont. The one pictured was for a bronze threshold.
I appreciate the responses so far.
I think we may either have to use a Jamsill and cut a rabbet in the concrete so it will turn down on the front edge as it should or just fabricate an aluminum pan ourselves.
Should I worry about the un-level sill?
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I once was able to successfully remove (and subsequently reinstall) an aluminum sill by cutting through the screws holding it to the jambs. Used a thin hacksaw blade to slice right at the junction between wood and metal.
For filling gaps on a concrete slab under a sill I've found that thinset for floor tile works quite well.
I make my first 'pans' ten years ago out of EPDM bec i had it on hand, and i'm still doing it this way bec it appears to work and it's really cheap and easily made to any size on site. I also do this for windows.
I put EPDM in the corners first, then lay the center portion overlapping the corners and up the sides, with appropriate cuts for turning the corners, then glue it all together with lap cement. I recently changed out a door i did a few years ago for a different swing, and the EPDM was still well-stuck together. Sorry...wish i had a picture to show instead of trying to explain.
Speaking of pictures, I have to recommend everyone look at your profile pic!
LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I like the EPDM idea, but for this door we need something that can be exposed and look half decent since the concrete slab that acts as the sill extends past the door sill.The EPDM tip is definitely one I will file away for future use.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
If you build the threshhold to level with thinset, then make the EPDM pan (i also prefer it because i extend the side pieces up at least a foot), i'd think you'd be better off over a metal pan bec the EPDM, even if cut back flush with the front edge of the sill, would act like a gasket between two flat surfaces. Or use a couple beads of butyl caulking for extra insurance. I like butyl better than silicone in these places bec it seems both to stick and flex better. I could be hallucinating, of course... <G>
Jon, I can't add much except to say that I always have door pans made out of either galv or copper, and if the Jamsill pans are the plastic ones I'm thinking of then I wouldn't use one under a door. The metal pans are easy to deal with... they can be made to the exact size you need in each direction, and it is easy to flash down over the ears with Vycor. Someone here or on JLC posted a link to an online source that would custom-make them... might be handy if no sheet metal shop nearby.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>someone here or on JLC posted a link to an online source that would custom-make them... might be handy if no sheet metal shop nearby.I make 50-60 of them a year out of copper. They're not that expensive, but the shipping would cost.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
GRANTT LOGANN - THE LEXINGTONVILLE COPPERWRIGHT
http://grantlogan.net/
When you say "not expensive", what do you mean? If we could find a local guy similar to yourself that could be the ticket.Would it be feasible to site fabricate cu pans with out Tapco Pro 14 brake or is the metal too heavy for our tool?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
>>>>>>>>>Would it be feasible to site fabricate cu pans with out Tapco Pro 14 brake or is the metal too heavy for our tool?The brake will bend it. The problem is you have to buy a whole sheet/roll of copper and cut a small piece of it off and save the remainder, which may be too small for the next sill pan. I just sell what's used in each instance and since I buy copper in bulk, my price is the same as the by the sheet price you would get elsewhere.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
GRANTT LOGANN - THE LEXINGTONVILLE COPPERWRIGHT
http://grantlogan.net/
You could make those and ship them UPS no problem, right?
Yup - I also have some 12 oz cu that would cut the material cost about 25% and be adequate for sill pans. I've just started stocking 12 oz for this type fabrication.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
GRANTT LOGANN - THE LEXINGTONVILLE COPPERWRIGHT
http://grantlogan.net/
Please email me your phone number or fax number or both. I need to bypass the local guy and would rather order from you (he's a competent tradesman but incredibly hard to pin down, and never does anything without much reminder). I've been getting some fancy woodwork like stair parts and turnings made in Maine and shipped from there lately, by a guy from the JLC forum.
Click on the grantlogan.net link at the bottom of this message - it's all there on the "contacts" page. Hope I can help you out.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
GRANTT LOGANN - THE LEXINGTONVILLE COPPERWRIGHT
http://grantlogan.net/
David,Why would you not use a Jamsill pan? I thought you were a happy user of their pans based on your responses at JLC, but I'm probably getting mixed up.Like I said to Splint, the pan we use has to be okay for exposure (both UV & asthetics) since the concrete extends past the door sill. I do want to start using some type of sill pan in all of our exterior doors and I would think the Jamsill pans would be great since they're fabbed at 4-9/16" and can be easily joined on site. Do you think a metal pan would be better?Also, what do you think about the sill being sloped? I saw your post at JLC a while ago with a similar situation, how did that turn out?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I trimmed out quite a few windows in one house that had been installed over Jamsill pans. The plastic flanges are too thick for my taste, they cause buildup on the face of the sheathing that makes the exterior trim harder to seat. I generally use Flexwrap and Vycor to flash windows and those materials don't cause the same problem. Of course you can rabbet your trim as needed to fit the Jamsill, so it's not a deal breaker, but I have found the flashing tapes easy to do a good job with and they adapt to practically any normal window install.
For doors I like metal pans because that's what I'm used to. Jamsill stuff is not stocked here, so I'd have to order it, cut it, glue it together, etc. To get metal pans I just measure for them and send a fax to the tin man. In the case of your door with the concrete projecting out, I'd just build up level under the pan with mason's mix and then order the pan so that it covers out in front of the door as needed. Paint it black and you're good to go.
For sloping sills you can hold your rough sills down 1/2" and then use a piece of 1/2x6 cedar bevel siding to create the slope. It makes setting the windowsill on the interior slightly more time consuming but if you think there's a chance of bulk water getting thru then it's probably a good idea.