I am currently having some problems with my framer. One of the problems is his inability to read a level. I have an exterior wall that’s leaning out probably three quarters of an inch in nine feet. I didn’t catch it in time so now there’s ceiling joists and wall sheathing that will make fixing the problem hard.
That far out of plumb is not acceptable to me but I don’t know what to do about it. Do I make him correct the problem or do I let it go and find a better framer next time? I’d like to know what others think is an acceptable amount of lean in a wall. I trim houses and can’t stand sloppy framing. I know I’m not alone, sloppy framing makes everyone’s job harder.
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I'm no framer....
...but this happened on a Habitat house I was helping with once upon a time....
The wall was up and sheathed. The trusses set.
We pulled all the nails connecting the trusses to the wall (which was leaning out) and jury rigged a car jack and some 2x's to push the wall straight. Then the trusses were nailed back on. Probably a pretty stupid thing to do (it was my idea after all). If that jack had slipped out stuff would've been flying.
And again, I'm no framer, but I gotta think that over nine feet to be off 3/4" is unacceptable.
Off topic:
If you click on your name above (where it says "To: SMONCLA"), you will open your profile.
We would appreciate it if you could fill some of that in, especially where you are located!!
Thanks!
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
If the exterior bricks the mason can hide it!
If it were leaning in you'd have to put double stick tape on the back of your pictures so they wouldn't hang away from the wall.
Actually the idea of sawzalling under the joist and truss's nails isn't to bad as long as the wall isn't to to long. A lot more info needed 'cause your entering the Darwin Award Zone if your not careful.
"Acceptable lean" is an oxymoron in this situation.
I'd ask the framer how HE fixes walls like that. See what his response is and go from there.
As far as whether or not I'd let him go... Well, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt ASSUMING he doesn't have a history of screwups. But if he has a history of screwups, then really, what is he doing working for me anyway?
smonc.... it ain't the end of the world.. but i do like the one about asking the framer how he's going to fix it..
just for reference... this is bogus in new construction... but is not unusual in remodeling.. we work with what's there.. it makes it harder, but not impossible..
i've worked with 2" out in 10'... that was fun.. especially hanging 8' high by 12' door unit in that wall...
so, yes , it is unacceptable in new const...
but as to the remedy.. hmmm....i'd have to be there.. one remedy is he gives you some money, another remedy is he fixes it, a third remedy is you chalk it up Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
PAY PEANUTS....GET MONKEES!!!
I vote MONKEES!!
Monkees Rule!
A couple items to add. Does the framer know about this? Maybe his level[or yours]is bad. A 4ft. level is'nt the best on 9ft. walls. If it's a kitchen wall,it'll have to be fixed. I had some 'south of the border monkees' do that to me on a few occasions. Maybe they didn't square a wall right before standng?
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Are you talkin' Wizard of Oz monkees- I'd agree( those bad boys had wings- and they didn't need no stinkin' levels) !
Roar! And they got to wear those cool hats.
It happens and it is fixable
we have had wind play havoc with walls
how can it happen, Ill give you one way this is no bull.
we had a 28' long gable wall, 7/12 pitch. so its up there.
we brace it off real good, as plumb as our plate to plate stabila can get it.
Next day ready for inteiro walls, walk about, check for plumb, hey this wall is out
braces didnt move one pinch, no clearance between them . two of us walk over toward center of floor. to get the brace loose.........hey boss the wall is plumb now, What.........walk back.....out of plumb.........back to center.......plumb.
the TJI with wet 3/4 ply floor was crowning ( uplifting) up thus throwing wall out and us two with our "winter" insulation was enough to move it back.
wasnt 3/4 but it was out.
pulled it back to an inteior wall with cables, got the rest of inteior walls up that attached to that gable, problem gone
so mabe it was not the GCs fault at first and he just did not catch a shift or movement.
I have a similar problem with my framer.. He built my timberframe house and I watched as he carefully set the walls straight and perfectly vertical.
A year later the wall was bowed in 1 3/4 and the center of it was sucked in the same amount!
Compaining to me did no good whatsoever, I refused to straighten it out figuring that it was an act of nature that caused to bow.. A year later I was rewarded by the house becoming slightly less bowed and now it's only 3/4 of an inch bowed in.. The stupid framer figures that attaching the SIPs to the timbers caused to SIP's to be sucked in as the two timbers affected bowed. The steady pressure of the SIP's eventually caused the tombers affected to slightly un bow thus reducing the visable effects and now you need to sight along the wall to see it..
I realize it's too much to hope that eventually the wall will get straight but I'm confident that it might improve a little.. If not then I'll refuse to ever hire myself again to build a house!
3/4" is not acceptable at all anyone who tells you this is a HACK and should go jump off the next house he frames. It can be fixed and it should be fixed. It sounds like it's not your home and your a GC or Builder that trims in own work because of you saying to accept it or use another framer next time. See what he says about fixing it. I'd hate to see if that wall is a bath wall that's getting tile if you let it go or if it's a cabinet wall. There's plenty of ways to fix it so see what his solution is. If he doesn't have one or gives you a hard time and says he's not going to fix it then you have some big problems.
There's always a reason something happening and if he sees that it's out of plumb and tries to fix it then he's alright but if there's other walls like that all over the place and he just keeps going and doesn't feel he should fix it like I said above you have some big problems. Where did you get this guy from? Was he recommended by someone? Was he the cheapest price?
There's another wall in this house that's just as bad. In a few places he has the first top plate breaking between two studs, instead of in the center of one stud, as if he cut the plates wrong and added a stud to compensate. The studs and the plates separated about half an inch before he put up the final top plate. That causes some of the lean. He also staggered breaks in the top plate only about four inches in several places. Code says it has to be atleast 24 inches.
This guy also got about 9 interior rough openings wrong. Too Small. All the headers had to be ripped out and redone. One large cased opening is in the completely wrong place. The front door isn't centered between the walls of the foyer as it's supposed to be. The top plates match up so poorly that it will be visible in the sheetrock when it is finished in a few places. Also, he put down all my advantec flooring with construction adhesive on one day when I wasn't there and only tacked it down. He waited until the next day to nail it off!! All the glue was hard by then.
I am a trim carpenter but I've framed in the past. I got my contracting license a year ago and this is my first house. A spec house. This guy was recommended to me. He was framing a lot of houses in the neighborhood and I hadn't heard any complaints about him. He said he knew I was going to be trimming it and that he was going to make sure it was right. His idea of fixing one of the leaning walls was to take a 2x8 and push the wall in from the outside. There's a wall right where he's pushing that leads to the other side of the house. You can't push that one without making the other one go out of plumb. The wall in question was an inch out of plumb and now it's more like 3/4's and he says that it is fixed. I say he's fired. Even though I haven't framed in a few years I can do way better than him. I also found a very good framer in the area that's willing to give me a few good men in two weeks to help me. I think that's the route I should take.
A reputation is very important, especially to a new builder.
If all what you said is true in your last post you have a lot of problems. He's obviously not going to fix what he did. I wouldn't pay him another dime unless he fixes everything. Everyone makes mistakes but this MORON has made to many and from what your saying he's not willing to fix all of them. It's going to cost you money to pay someone else to fix them if you paid this guy already.Not that it matters because the damage is done already but do you know if this guy was on the job every day whether he was working or supervising his crew when all these mistakes were made or did he have a bunch of rookies doing the house. Either way whether he was there or not all these problems should've been fixed. Him telling you that since he new that you were trimming the house he would make sure everything would be right is ridiculous...It should be right no matter what and no matter who trims the houseOne thing I disagree with you on is when you said this, "In a few places he has the first top plate breaking between two studs, instead of in the center of one stud, as if he cut the plates wrong and added a stud to compensate."I've never laid out the first top plate so that it lands in the center of a stud if it does that's not because I intended it to. That's not going to cause any problems nor has it ever caused any problems with an inspector at least from where I'm from it's never been an issue or even talked about like a joint in a ridge I don't land them in the center of the rafters.Good Luck.Joe Carola
I've never laid out the first top plate so that it lands in the center of a stud if it does that's not because I intended it to. That's not going to cause any problems nor has it ever caused any problems with an inspector at least from where I'm from it's never been an issue or even talked about like a joint in a ridge I don't land them in the center of the rafters.
Joe, obvioulsy regional differences are coming into play here.
If we don't land our top plate on the center of a stud, we will not pass inspection. The fix is to place an extra stud under the break.
If we don't land the double top plate on the center of the stud, we won't pass inspection and the fix is to place an extra stud under the break.
I had a situation where I stacked a second wall above an existing wall. I didn't bother to break the bottom plate of the stacked wall above a stud. I failed the inspection until I put a stud under that joint!
Most inspectors only know what the book says, they can't interpret the codes and apply common sense.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Unknown, I think your getting a great lesson in selecting and supervising your trades!
Please don't think I'm defending this carpenter because I'm not but I'm thinking that there is some shared responsibility here.
I have a few questions for you but first let me make a general statement: I believe that the rough frame is the most important element of the entire house...if you get right, everything else flows significantly smoother.
Questions: Because you understand the importance of the rough frame, why didn't you challenge the laying of the plywood when they layed their first sheet?
When they stood up the first interior partition, why didn't you question the width of the rough opening? Why would you allow nine rough openings to be too narrow?
When they lapped their plates in a manner that didn't meet code, why didn't you question that decision?
When they stood up and attached the walls and left them 3/4" out of plumb, why didn't you bring that condition to their attention before the roof or floor was set?
You mentioned that this framer was recommended to you....what did you think of the framer's last house that he roughed? Were the plates, headers and other details up to your standards?
When you walked through his current ongoing rough, before you signed the contract, were you satisfied with the crew, their tools and their methods?
Unknown, my questions may seem a little harsh, but if you honestly answer them without directing any anger toward me, or toward the crew that just wrecked your first spec home, you'll find some answers that will forever prevent another disaster like that from happening.
Now for the fix. Everything that you just mentioned is easily fixed. I would probably be able to send in one man....two at the most and be done "tweaking" your house in one day...that's about 16 hours total...maybe as little as 8. Since I am now charging $80 per hour for that type of work (I call it remodeling), I would bill you for about $700 to $1300. If you tack on your standard 40% markup, you are looking at a bill of about $2000 to fix the messups. Additionally, I would recommend screwing down the floors and charging it to the framers. That would be another $400 or 500 .
Your job now is to get this situation resolved. Its a difficult negotiating process, but you can make it harder, or make it easier. I'd offer the framer several alternative suggestions: Accept the 2.5K deduction, or go through the entire house with a fine tooth comb and fix everything according to code and or your written specs.
Understand, that you want to leave the guy room to save face...so you might start at 3k and settle for 2.5k. If you can get the guy to sign off on his lien, with a minimal of delay and aggravation, you will be much better off doing the repairs yourself.
BlueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
This being my first house I can't afford to be on the job all the time. I also can't afford not to be. I have a full time job that I must keep in order to stay afloat so being there full time isn't an option. I know, I know, that's no excuse. The next house I will be more able to do that and the next, more still, I hope.
Being a boss is also new to me and I guess I find it a little hard to boss carpenters around that are older than me. I must get over that though. When they're wrong, they're wrong.
The framers and I had a long talk and when they realized I was seriously considering giving them the boot, they got defensive at first but quickly apologized and vowed to change thier ways. Everything is going to be fixed and I am going to help them when I can. Today I cut a stair stringer for them so they'll have something to copy and get right. Working with them today I realized that they aren't completely slack. I think a lot of their problem is that they really don't know what they're doing. I had to throw in some praises for things they were doing well instead of just focusing on their negatives. I think that helped with their moral.
I think I can get through this house with them but the chances of me using them on the next one are slim to none......or just none. I already have a couple of better framers in mind. One being me. I should have framed this house myself.
Some frame houses thinking their work will be hidden. Others frame houses knowing their work will always show.
sam
Hey Sam,
Sorry to hear of your misfortune. As I'm sure you already know, 3/4" is unacceptable. That being said.... it's really not a total horror show to fix it. I would recommend losing your framer pretty quick though.
Next time, may I recommend that you really take notice of your next framer's job before you hire him. I would also recommend you talk to the GC of this project as well. Let him know that you won't rat him out, just that you would like his candid opinion. Maybe you already did all that and still got screwed.... it happens.
I hate to say it, but I like to hear stories like this. It's job security for me. I like nothing better than winning the trust of the GC I'm working for. In my opinion, all the GC should have to do during the framing process is drive by on draw day and stick the check out the window of his truck. That's it. I don't mean that all I'm interested in is the money, what I mean is that I like to assume full reponsibility for the project while it is in my hands and I'll turn it back over to them when the frame is done. No punch list, no baloney. I find the GC's like this relationship too.... it lets them relax and get off my back and allow me to do my job. He can walk it at night to satisfy himself while I'm home sleeping.
Keep looking.... you'll find a good framer. Your current house isn't the end of the world either. It's good that you have some framing experience and are capable of handling it yourself. If you were a paper GC you'd be screwed right now.
Hope it all turns out ok for you.
What do you mean by a paper GC? You said I would be screwed if I was one. I do have my GC license.
What I meant was a hands-off GC. Some of the guys I frame for are more business men types than carpenter types. Two out of my five regulars in fact are totally hands-off which actually often provides us with a lot of knick-knacks that can add up nicely throughout a project. With good subs, things go very smoothly and every one makes out well. But when problems like yours occur, it can be a bit more painful for the hands-off types than it would be for someone in your position.
Trying to get someone else in to do half a project riddled with goof-ups isn't an easy or cheap thing to accomplish. Especially considering the time restrictions.
I was just trying to say that it could be worse.... at least you are capable of dealing with it yourself.
From my experience (foreman, sup't., gen. cont'r.), you get farther without an antagonistic approach. I used to have sub's whose secretaries would ask me "Why are you the only superintendent that doesn't scream on the phone?" Anyway, when you're the boss, the sub's, employees, etc. are your "tools". A good craftsman doesn't yell at his tools, call them "stupid", etc. He treats them well, guides them to do what he needs, and replaces them if they can't or won't. When I had an issue with craftsmanship, I would often approach it as a question. And appeal to their pride. Contrary to what a lot of management people think, most workers do like to think of themselves as one of the good ones. So I might say, in front of everyone "which one of you guys has the best problem-solving skills? -'cause I need someone who can figure out how to fix this wall over here, without messing up that wall at the other end." Or "Do you guys know if there's any way to fix a leaning wall without messing the walls up at the other end?" Or here's one that sometimes works: get a level out, check the wall, and then fix it yourself, in front of them, without saying anything, or getting angry, or anything. Just fix it like it was bugging you and you had no idea who did it. A lot of times that gets to their professional pride, and they're jumping in saying "Hey, we'll fix that - don't worry about it."One thing I really liked to hear you say was that you found some areas to praise them in. The first management reaction is to find bad behavior, and punish it. The smart manager looks for good behavior, and rewards it.I think you're on the right track.
Edited 1/12/2005 9:54 pm ET by Huck
That post is nothing but the absolute truth! Leaders find solutions.
Sometimes you have to let the subs teach themselves. Give them a reason to be proud of their work, but don't praise for shotty workmanship.
I think you have the right idea in doing it yourself with help from others. When I was framing, we figured a quarter inch or less out of plumb was acceptable, but were never even that far out. Doesn't the building inspector catch some of his errors? Even as an apprentice, I knew better than to do some of the things you say this guy is doing! On one of our jobs, the boss misread the blueprints and every wall from the center of the house in one direction were 8" from where they were supposed to be. Discovered this after trusses were on. Boss went back by himself on the weekend and moved all of those walls (and we had nailed the walls to the bottom chords of the trusses--which you shouldn't do anyway).
Danno,
I agree that 1/4 of an inch is the acceptable standard and that one should aim for perfect.
Yet if you frame a house with the wood that is available such as KD19 or SD19 you have a full 12 percent of moisture that will come out of that wood by the time the first heating session is over.. Walls that are perfectly plumb, square, and true will be anything but in a year..
I honestly wonder if we are just fooling ourselves or patting ourselves on the back trying to get those walls that correct..
When I was looking to buy my first starter home I went in with a level, square, and a plumb bob. believing that level plumb and true walls were a sign of good value.. It indicated a well made house..
I'm embaressed to admit how many great deals I rejected because the house failed my quaility test..
In the end I realized that the best deal wasn't a well made house rather a house in a great location..
(the old realitors saw here about Location, location, location.. )
Someone I knew used to say, "Plumb, until the wind blows." The problem I had when framing was the boss was always rushing things and was trying to put up trusses while I was finding top plate corners that hadn't been nailed!
> He also staggered breaks in the top plate only about four inches in several places. Code says it has to be atleast 24 inches.
Maybe just regional differences, but here it's 48 inches. Unlike Blue's AHJ, they let me break upper top plates anywhere. I always break the lowers on studs, so I'm not sure if it's required.
-- J.S.
Good luck. You 'might'get away with no squeeks in your floor.Even if you screwed it down now you're just screwing into dried glue. We have to break top plates on studs here,the second plate is'nt necessary.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
You have to fix it . He can build a temporary wall to hold what is up above . Bring it to his attention , and see what his response is . If he's a good carpenter he will just fix it , and hopfully not come up with excuses .