I know there’s been a lot of threads on this, but I thought this was an interesting photo.
I’ve been putting up a fence and found out the hard-way that one should NOT put the posts in the ground before they dry completely (the back 4 panels are a bit wavy, needless to say).
So, today I hauled all the posts out of the garage and stacked them up on spacers outside to drive for a few weeks. In doing so, I picked up one post that had a regular nail that just happened to be sitting on top of it. The nail must have been sitting there for 3 weeks and this is what it now looks like:
Replies
Holy crap! That's scary.
Glad I picked up a mess of stainless nails on the cheap last summer...gonna come in real handy for my new deck's under-bits.
Jason
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-Ellery Channing Remembers Henry Thoreau
Hmmmm. Not too sporty.
Just curious, has your weather been rainy or dry while that nail was sitting on the post?
I'm not surprised by the rust - I am surprised how even it is on all surfaces. I would have expected heavier rust on the bottom (contact) surface. It must spread rapidly from the point of contact - splash during rain?
Ever since the ACQ corrosion issues came to light, I have been springing the extra $$ for SS nails and screws. Our local nail distributor was on board with SS fast. Has anything you could want including gun staples (I never used any, but he's got them).
The nail guy is amazing - all he really wants to sell is nails - buys by the ship container full, there is always 4 or 5 containers behind his shop. Beats everybody's price on single case purchases, can get an even better price if you buy by the pallet. By default he is also in the nail gun sales and service business.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Actually, this was inside my garage the whole time.I'm using SS and the triple-dipped ACQ approved screws for the fence. The problem is that I can't find SS nails at regular hardware/big-box places unless you get it by the bulk contractor-size container.
Actually, this was inside my garage the whole time.
Hope everyone sees this.
So to confirm, this standard nail was sitting inside a garage on top of an ACQ pressure treated post for 3 weeks and this is what happened?
He also had the firmness of the Indian, and could repress his pathos; as when he carried (about the age of ten) his pet chickens to an innkeeper for sale in a basket, who thereupon told him "to stop," and for convenience’ sake took them out one by one and wrung their several pretty necks before the poor boy’s eyes, who did not budge. He had such a seriousness at the same age that he was called "judge."
Ellery Channing Remembers Henry Thoreau 1873
Edited 7/13/2007 1:58 pm ET by rez
Well, to be fair, it MIGHT have been closer to 4-5 weeks. Either way, though, yea, that's pretty much it. Had the fence posts stacked in the garage. Brought out some cheap steel nails (for the record, while these aren't brads, they're only the next step up...so not terribly large nails) to nail in some temporary string holders to create a level line between posts. In doing so, I dropped the box and obviously missed a couple nails that fell into the pile. A month later, and this was the result.
Yikes, were there any tools stored in that garage? Could it have attacked the heads of nails in nearby framing? Can you find all your cars? If not are there any big piles of red dust you don't remember? ;-)
-- J.S.
Ever since the ACQ corrosion issues came to light, I have been springing the extra $$ for SS nails and screws. ).
Jim,
Do you have any guess as to how long the SS nails will last? Is there any certainty that they won't get eaten up in several years?
I'm really concerned about this ACQ stuff -- I've avoided it whenever possible. However, I've got a couple of porch projects coming up in the not-to-distant future, and I'm unsure of what to do.
>>Do you have any guess as to how long the SS nails will last? Is there any certainty that they won't get eaten up in several years?<<
Longer than uncoated steel.
Honestly, I have no idea how long the SS fasteners / ZMax or Triple Zinc hangers will last.
My use of SS fasteners is based solely on the recommendations of the nail and ACQ wood manufacturers.
I figure if I follow their recommendations for installation then I will hopefully have "deep pockets" backing me up if there are any problems in the future. If I do not follow their guidelines, I know for certain I will not have help with any future problems.
My personal opinion is that the banning of CCA treated wood was the product of media hype which got going when some TV journalist discovered that the "A" in CCA stood for arsenic (I didn't think it was ever a secret). The hype was fueled by our ability to measure chemical presence in parts per billion or trillion. CCA and hot dipped galvanized worked like a charm.
I suspect that ACQ will be replaced within a few years due to liability issues - just hope the replacement is not worse in some other way.
The local HD is now selling treated wood products which claims corrosion rates between KD and CCA with HDG fasteners - "ProWood Micro" treatment - Universal Forestry Products - http://www.ufpi.com - don't know if the link will work, but that is the web site. The wood is much lighter in color than ACQ, don't know about performance.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited to add product name and web address.
Edited 7/14/2007 11:36 am ET by JTC1
Edited 7/14/2007 11:38 am ET by JTC1
Thanks for the additional info, Jim.
I think for now you are doing the best any of us can do -- follow manufacturer guidelines and hope for the best.
Ragnar,Jim's answer is honest, and would be mine, too. However, you can improve your odds by using type 316 stainless steel. It is more resistant to corrosion than the type 304/305 commonly seen, or the so-called 18-8 stainless. Simpson uses type 316 in their stainless hanger line.It is my understanding that the 400 series stainlesses (heat-treatable due to carbon content) are less resistant to corrosion than the 300 series. Don't have any real experience to back that up with, just book learnin'.Bill
Some more info ont the differnt types of stainless steel screws.http://www.mcfeelys.com/tech/ssteel.aspxhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel
Thanks. What I am curious to know is the alloy used in the stainless GRK fasteners. They brand it as "Pheinox," which, along with the high strength properties, suggest precipitation hardened stainless, such as 17-4 or 17-5.Does anybody know the answer?
Like the old saying goes, "One picture is worth a thousand posts from a hundred threads here on BT."
Seriously, I've got to save that photo in case any body questions why I want them to spring extra $ for SS.
I think that blows the argument - "They're fine as long as they aren't exposed to the weather."
Applied by some framers (present company excluded) who are still shooting brights to attach joists to the sill plates. Could get interesting in a few years.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edit: I think I may cook up my own sample of this phenomena - try a bunch of different screws, nails etc.
Edited 7/13/2007 6:22 pm ET by JTC1
"Could get interesting in a few years."I can see this becoming the next bid lead/asbestos lawsuit when the decks and houses start collapsing suddenly.
I think I may cook up my own sample of this phenomena - try a bunch of different screws, nails etc.
You ever get a chance to start the experiment samples?
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
Yes I have started it, in place for only about a week, but I think it is a bit too soon to tell anything. One interior conditioned space storage, one exposed to weather.
Started several actually, one in ACQ, a second in ProWood ("micronized" copper quaternary) and a third in KD.
Garden variety brights, bright gun nails (actually are cement coated), HD galvanized, GRK screws with Climatex (?) coating and SS screws. All fasteners are from my normal suppliers.
Will post with photos after I see some results.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Did you see any significant results from your test?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
bump...
Any results you want to fill us in on?
Just got back from a week out of town.
ACQ test has been underway since September, 2007.
Was thinking about pulling the first row of fasteners soon - 10 months.
Have interior test and exterior test in progress in KD, ACQ and ProWood (which is treated with copper quat).
Visually, the exposed sections of the fasteners have not show any dramatic changes since about the 1 month mark and nothing unexpected ---- bright nails are rusted, all coated, galvanized and SS fasteners remain basically unchanged in appearance.
Of course the story is currently hidden beneath the suface of the wood. Will pull some soon.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Thanks MUCH!!! keep us posted...