Actual Data on Tankless H20 Heaters
Has anyone ever seen any actual data on efficiency of tankless vs traditional gas water heaters. I have been to several supply houses in town, searched the net and have not found any side by side comparison.
One local handyman company is claiming “upto 50% more efficient” on the Rinnai units they are installing, which are simultaneously being recalled due to excessive scale.
I just want to be able to give my clients the correct info when it comes to WH decisions.
Thanks for all your help
Bruce
Replies
Yes I did, but I see the charts I found then don't seem to be there now...
Anyhow, this was my choice after checking them all out:
http://www.takagi.com/index.php?product_id=1&page_id=2
Most flexible, efficient, lowest starting flow.
Thanks for the link Pete. I was hoping to find a comparison of fuel cost for one month or one year of service under various scenarios-as other pointed out the family with four teenagers or the cabin in the woods.
Bruce
I would be very careful of any claim that the units are more efficient while burning. AFAIK the efficiency ratings have a lot to do with whether or not the burner is on full burn, and with the modulating valves on tankless heaters you will be at reduced burn quite often, and lower efficiency.
If there is any savings with a tankless it comes from reduced standby losses. For one person with a weekend cabin that could be huge. For a family with 4 teenagers it could be zero.
Furthermore, educating the household about what it is and how it functions most efficiently is important to actaully achieving savings. If there is someone in the house that doesn't subscribe fully to a few small behavior changes, that efficiency goes down.
Edited 3/9/2008 6:05 pm ET by peteshlagor
Thanks David,
I was hoping to find gas usage over a period of time under those different scenarios
Bruce
"If there is any savings with a tankless it comes from reduced standby losses. For one person with a weekend cabin that could be huge. For a family with 4 teenagers it could be zero."Worse than zero even. I installed a Bosch tankless unit for a family with two teenage sons; replacing a 30gal gas WH. Cost of re-piping gas supply with 1 1/4" to get enough BTUs into the thing as well as special stainless double-wall flue ducting was as much as the cost of the unit. Three months after install I asked the HO how much his gas bills had dropped. He said they had actually increased. It seems the sons took longer showers because they no longer ran out of hot water.
BruceT
Use the ADVANCED search by the user whoover.
He is an engineer with AO Smith.
He posted a message with a link to a study comparing the operating cost and purchase cost of a a tank vs tankless. However, I am not sure if he posted it in this forum or another one that I see him in from time to time.
But as someone else said it is highly variable based on the usage rates and patterns.
It only mostly affects the standby cost and not the cost of heating the water.
There is a local company advertising Nortiz with an installed cost of $2000. They also say that it will pay for it'self in 5 years.
That just does not compute.
My summer gas bill runs 35-40/month. And of that there is a $25 fixed charge. So that means that I use, at most $15 worth of gass during the summer. And that includes a gas grill and the pilots for 2 furnaces besides the WH.
But assuming that all of that was used for the WH that would be $180/year for gas or $900 for 5 years. But that is the TOTAL for the WH. A good bit of that is for heating the water, which you would pay for anyway.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks Bill
I'm sorry I can't find the exact place I found this info in but. I know I've read in several places that a tankless over a standard tanked WH will use on average 30% less natural gas.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Thanks Daniel,
I have seen many broad claims, i.e. save upto 50% but no side by side comparison over any period time.
Thanks for looking.
Bruce
Frankly, if you plan on justifiing the purchase of the tnakless based upon efficiency alone, you're 1, wasting your time, 2, gonna be disappointed.
To me, the biggest value from having a tankless, is the space saved of not having two 70 gallon tanks sitting in the middle of my utility room. 2 sq ft on the wall instead is worth the whole thing.
The efficiency of tankless units is you hear about to the exclusion of actual data. If I am going to advise a client to drop two grand on a tankless when a traditional at one fourth the price would suffice, I would like to have legitimate data.
One would think with all the rage about tankless this info would be out there.
As far as space, we install 99% of our water heaters in clients attic and eliminate the four square feet they consume in the living space.
I appreciate your input, but I am just trying to find the data.
Bruce
I don't know of much published data besides advertising hype, but can offer my personal data. During the summer, my gas usage is only for hot water, cooking, and running the dryer. Before the tankless, I was using about 5-6 therms a month. Now I'm typically using about 3 therms/month in the summer. What percentage of that is hot water, I'm not sure, but I've knocked off 2-3 therms/month. Hot water must be less than 3 therms (since that's my total usage), I've got no standing pilots, so I figure I cut my hot water costs in half at best. Yay, I'm supposedly fitting into the ideal usage for tankless.But run the numbers - saving 2.5 therms/month = ~$5/month = $60/year. I'm not going to break even on this investment. My installation was pricey - over $3k. This was more an experiment than anything.However, you *really* need to know the usage patterns to have any idea of savings. Using the advertising numbers of "up to 50%" means little. I live alone, typically shower at work after biking in, and sometimes go days without using hot water at home. An atypical user, I suspect. As someone else said, if you've got a typical household of 4 or 5, using hot water throughout the day, you'll probably see little to no savings. Unless, that is, you typically run out of hot water through heavy usage - then tankless may be the only way to provide hot water for everyone.
Tankless has, at the minimum, a 10 year warranty. You won't find over 90 days with most tanks. So you need to factor in the replacement and installation cost of a tank heater every 5 years, as opposed to probably not ever replacing that tankless. Most tanks have annual maintenance protocols. There is none with tankless. I own a Noritz and should you chose to, you can take 30 minute showers and do a load of laundry. The other big selling point with Noritz is the remote water temperature controller(s). At one, or all, locations you can install a temperature controller, so there is super hot water for the laundry or dishes and more tempid water for the boy's bathroom.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Our electric tank is 32 years old.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
You are lucky. I bet a tankless heater would last 60 years then.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I installed my gas hot water tank in august of 1983, and just replaced it a month ago. With no maintenance.Makes me wonder if it would have lasted longer if I drained and flushed it every year like they recommend? Probably not and considering it's probably a two hour job, I saved about 50 hours of work over the years ignoring it!John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
"You won't find over 90 days with most tanks."Most tanks have a 6, 9 , or 12 year warranty. Never seen one with only a 90 day waranty."So you need to factor in the replacement and installation cost of a tank heater every 5 years, as opposed to probably not ever replacing that tankless."In most areas tanks last 10-15 years or longer." Most tanks have annual maintenance protocols. There is none with tankless."While you can get longer life out of a tank by draining it regular and check & replacing the anode when needed that is rarely done. Most tanks last 10-15 with out having anthing done to them.OTH, many tankless require periodic descaling..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
My tankless has NO, Zero, None annual mainentance protocol. Since its not storing hot water, the life span of tankless would obviously be double or triple the life span of a rusty old tank. And many of us live in areas with dissimilar water characteristics. What your experience is with a tank of hot water will not be what someone else may have 40 or 400 miles away.Me, I went through tanks every five years. You may go through them once every 50 years. There is no right or wrong here, only different. But tankless, because it is not holding hot water in a tank will always last longer and will always have less operational expense. How much will depend on the fuel, the size of the tank, the insulation on the tank, the personal use habits and other factors.To my knowledge, no one has ever challenged the concept that tankless are cheaper to operate and last longer. The question for everyone is whether those savings are worth the $2k price tag. For you, probably not. For other, it might be.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I just had Sears install a new h2o heater, $450
10 year garentee(sp)
Last one lasted 18 years
I can"t see any savings.
By the way, I never serviced the old one.
Like I said, may not be for you. If it was large enough so that you never ran out of water, and you didn't need multiple remote temperature settings, had plenty of room to place the water heater(s), and weren't worried about earthquakes tipping it over, then by all means don't buy one. Other people like me appreciate the cheaper operating cost, longer life span, the unlimited water, the smaller footprint, and the multiple remote temperature settings.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
"So you need to factor in the replacement and installation cost of a tank heater every 5 years, as opposed to probably not ever replacing that tankless."BS - mine last 12-18 years
trying to claim a tankless has a better lifespan than a tank (which has an anode rod you can replace) is pretty optimistic. a tankless is a more complicated machine with a lot more to go wrong. If did have to replace it, a tank water heater is more "disposable". A service call on a tankless is likely to cost as much as a new tank. Or half as much, anyway...I don't know if they are cheaper to operate or not. They have some advanced venting going on... how's the electrical usage stack up?I believe the tankless uses more electricity but loses less standby heat. In MOST cases, standby loss from a tank is pretty small. The real advantage is in periodic or infrequently used DHW situations such as vacation homes, or when you need a very high amount of hot water production that a tank just can't provide.I believe you'll find if you crunch the numbers that electrical usage will, if not wash out the advantage for most people, at least make it even less economical by comparison. I haven't done a strong comparison on my own for DHW, since it's not my specialty, but that's my educated hunch.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Edited 3/15/2008 10:18 am ET by NRTRob
Thanks for your bit of data.
Bruce
If you install a tankless, just don't put in a hot/cold faucet outside. You'll see the smiling faces of your children playing in 100 gals of heated water when you return home, and realize you've saved nothing if not cost yourself more.
I think someone else stated both parties need to be involved for conservation/budgeting to work :)
My electrician installed an automatic flusher for a couple who trained their cat to go in the toilet. The cat was then taught to flush after going. The water bill was $600 or so after the first month. Apparently flushing toilets are quite a source of pleasure for the cats. Needless to say it was soon disconnected.
Thanks for the info
Bruce
$600 !!!! bye bye kitties.
"The cat was then taught to flush after going. The water bill was $600 or so after the first month."I think you may want to run that story through snopes.com before you tell it again. $600 worth of residential water here in Southern California (Glendale) at the rate of $2.43/hundred cubic feet (1 HCF = 748 gal) would amount to about 185,000 gallons. At 1.6 gal per flush, that cat had to have flushed about 3,850 times per day or roughly 160 times per hour 24 hours per day. They might want to turn down the water pressure a bit too, since the tank must be refilling 2.67 times a minute - at 40# pressure, mine takes about two minutes to refill.
BruceT
And I'm in Denver, closer to the source. As I recall, you do make a good point - water was cheep when I lived in San Juan Capo. Much, much cheeper than here in Denver. My two month bill for Aug-Sept was over $600 alone!
"And I'm in Denver, closer to the source. As I recall, ... water was cheep when I lived in San Juan Capo. Much, much cheeper than here in Denver. My two month bill for Aug-Sept was over $600 alone!"WOW!We have a 10-unit apartment building here in Orange County where half the water comes from 300 miles away; 41 tenants, 18 bathrooms, 10 kitchens, lawn sprinklers ['cause it never rains hereabouts] and monthly water bill runs about $500. You live at the foot of the snow-blessed Rockies and pay $300 per month for one family? No wonder Coors is so over-priced. :)BruceT
Yeah, the egg-sucking dogs have us on some time-of-year usage deal. I should have scaled my sprinklers back those months...
Different utilities have different God-like powers in different parts of the country. For instance, out in your neck of the woods, the fireguys are given virgins for years of service awards. Here, it's the waterboys.
You would think the company making it would have had a third party (not connected with the maker or the seller) do some testing even if only for a "simple typical family" that would be a start on backing the marketing claims..
My fear is that you will have to call a hi tech plumber at $200 just to tell you the computer board or the flame sensor is bad, both of which are not available at ace hardware or lowes, or on the weekned and will cost mega bux. good-by saving- and EVERYTHING RUSTS_ DISPOSALS< sinks, faucets and Ill bet tankless water heaters and their parts- they are all outside I bet the coastal rust will eat them and their heat exchanger parts up..
There is a recall on some Rinnai units here in Austin. The water here is very hard and there is a real problem with precipitation in the units.
Found this link with some data - make if it what you will: http://www.getwithgreen.com/2007/12/19/water-heater-return-on-investment-roi-on-tankless-water-heaters/
Thanks Red,
A decent starting place for a real evaluation. My only comment is finding a plumber that would install a unit for $150 and the lack of maintenance costs on the tankless.
Thanks
Bruce
That "data" is worthless."Average energy to heat water to 110F is 6.2 kW" How much water?" Annual hot water demand: 87 gallons / day- 335 days / year = 29,145 gallons/ yearPower to heat up 1 gallon of water from 57 to 110F according to the multi-housing laundry association is 0.2 kWh. The annual power requirement of heating the water from 57 to 110F for an American household is: 29,145 gallons/ year x 0.2 kWh/ gallon = 5,900 kWh/ yearThe cost of 5,900 kWh: 5,900 kWh/ year x $0.11/ kWh = $649/ year"That is the amount of power needed to heat that amount of water, PERIOD.The cost will be the same reguardless if it is heated in a tankless or a tank.The only difference is the standby losses. "The cost to keep one gallon of water hot is $0.003. So, the cost to keep 21,145 gallons of water hot (standby): 21,945 gallons/ year x $0.003/ gallon = $87"That is the only difference.And for an electric that is fairly small. Although I have not reason to trust that number, based how "accurate" the rest of their nubmers are..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for your additional input.
Perhaps FHB could put together a "real" analysis of how green tankless units are.
Could make for an interesting read.
Bruce
Boooogus!! The cost to heat the water should be the same in both cases, with only the standby costs being different. And the standby cost for a tank isn't a function of how much water is used but purely a time&temperature function.
That web page is all wet!
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I think after 26 posts we can conclude that there's no "actual data". Tankless is a winner in certain special cases, but the savings, if any, in a more normal situation is insufficient to pay the additional cost.
Tankless is a winner in terms of space consumed, if space is at a premium.
Aside: Why are there no tankless electric units designed specifically for "remote" bathrooms, fed off the central hot water line, to provide instant hot water?
I think your right about the data, but the conclusion is somewhat dishearting in that if you create enough hype about a product, you can get local and federal rebates for product that may or may not be at all superior to what it is replacing.
In regard to the aside, I think those do exist, but I do not recall where I saw it. The unit was about the 12x12 mounted under a vanity-not the cup of hot water for tea type, but a larger flow size. I can imagine it would have significant electric draw.
Bruce
"I think your right about the data, but the conclusion is somewhat dishearting in that if you create enough hype about a product, you can get local and federal rebates for product that may or may not be at all superior to what it is replacing."Actaully there is a specific standard that is used. It is the Energy Factor for WH's, AFU (??) for furnaces, SEER for AC.And it is measured using some standardized usage patterns. The gas fuel manufacturing association publishes list for them, even the electric ones.For storage type WH they EF is around 0.60 - 0.65. For tankless I think that they are in the mid .80's.Unfortunately there is nothing clearly published, that I have seen, that indicate the usage cycle for the tests or how to use that to estimate an operating cost..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
There's an efficiency standard for the tankless units to compare one to another, but still nothing to say that a tankless unit is more efficient than a tank. I too think the tankless guys pulled the wool over someone's eyes to get the rebate.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
The Energy Factor covers that.http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=13000"Determining Energy Efficiency of Storage, Demand, and Heat Pump Water HeatersUse the energy factor to determine the energy efficiency of a storage, demand (tankless or instantaneous), or heat pump water heater.The energy factor (EF) indicates a water heater's overall energy efficiency based on the amount of hot water produced per unit of fuel consumed over a typical day. This includes the following: * Recovery efficiency – how efficiently the heat from the energy source is transferred to the water
* Standby losses – the percentage of heat loss per hour from the stored water compared to the heat content of the water (water heaters with storage tanks)
* Cycling losses – the loss of heat as the water circulates through a water heater tank, and/or inlet and outlet pipes. The higher the energy factor, the more efficient the water heater. However, higher energy factor values don't always mean lower annual operating costs, especially when you compare fuel sources."http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=12820"For homes that use 41 gallons or less of hot water daily, demand water heaters can be 24%–34% more energy efficient than conventional storage tank water heaters. They can be 8%–14% more energy efficient for homes that use a lot of hot water—around 86 gallons per day. You can achieve even greater energy savings of 27%–50% if you install a demand water heater at each hot water outlet."Alsohttp://www.homeenergy.org/archive/hem.dis.anl.gov/eehem/99/990707.htmlWH cost calculator.http://www.rheemtankless.com/content/learn/energyCostCalculator.htmlIt won't run on my system.Here is another calculator. Tells how the average HW usage is figured.http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/procurement/eep_waterheaters_calc.htmlhttp://www.nstar.com/business/energy_advisor/PA_29.asp"Efficiency. The term "energy factor" characterizes the efficiency of both tank and tankless water heaters. The energy factor is the portion of the energy going into the water heater that gets turned into usable hot water under average conditions. It takes into account heat loss through the walls of the tank, up the flue, and in combustion. The higher the energy factor, the more efficient the heater.Because tankless water heaters don't have the losses associated with tanks, their energy factors are normally higher (although well-insulated, ultra-efficient tank heaters also have high energy factors). Energy factors for gas tankless water heaters range from around 0.69 to 0.84, compared with 0.55 for a conventional tank and 0.86 for an ultra-efficient tank heater. Conventional electric tank water heaters have an energy factor of about 0.87 compared with 0.91 for an ultra-efficient tank and 0.98 for electric tankless water heaters.Standing pilot or electronic ignitions. Tankless water heaters with standing pilot lights waste energy, but they can be cost-effective in applications where water use is high—a beauty parlor, for example. Where water use is lower (as in a residence), use a tankless water heater with an electronic ignition.Modulating or fixed energy input. Old-style models of tankless water heaters have a fixed energy output, so water temperatures vary inversely with flow rate. As the flow rate increases (more taps are turned on), the water becomes cooler. Conversely, as flow rate decreases the water becomes warmer. Newer models have modulating controls that increase or decrease energy input to maintain the selected outlet temperature despite varying flow rates and inlet temperatures. Use units with modulating controls when a steady temperature is required and also to prevent scalding in applications where people or animals may come in contact with the water. A modulating unit is unnecessary when temperature fluctuations are acceptable—in commercial laundries, for example."I also found this.http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/new_specs/downloads/water_heaters/LBNL_052907.pdf"Comments on the Energy Star Residential Water Heaters Draft Criteria Analysis
First, I want to thank you for developing Energy Star criteria for water heaters. Although
this is a difficult product to develop criteria for, I strongly support the concept of Energy
Star for water heaters.
Having said that, there are a number of issues I have with the draft criteria for water
heaters. IÆll start with the general issues.
The largest issue, and itÆs not limited to Energy Star, is the Energy Factor (EF) test
procedure for water heaters.1 Ideally test procedures should predict annual energy
consumption that is consistent with the annual energy consumption that products will use
in the field. This is not the case with the water heater EF test. I was very disappointed
that you made your energy savings calculations were based directly on the rated EF.
I am very familiar with the EF test. I was the chair of ASHRAE standards project
committee 118.2, when ASHRAEÆs version of the test procedure was last revised. I tested
electric resistance storage water heaters using the EF test procedure in support of DOEÆs
last update of the NAECA minimum energy efficiency standards for water heaters.
The EF test is good in the sense that it defines efficiency as energy out (as heated water)
divided by energy in for a 24 hour simulated use period. Unfortunately the hot water use
patterns in the test procedure have only a very distant connection with how hot water is
used in the field.
An example of the consequence of this disconnect is the rating of tankless water heaters.
Hot water use in the test procedure consists of 6 equal draws an hour apart of 10.7 gallons
each. Typically a household will have 40 to 50 much shorter hot water draws per day.
This difference in draws impacts tankless and tank type water heaters differently.
Because of the larger number of short draws in the field, the rating a tankless water heater
gets in the lab is overstated by as much as 9 percent.2 I would guess that very few gas
tankless water heaters on the market have a field EF over 80.
Similarly, for storage water heaters, the test procedure EF exceeds field efficiency
whenever daily hot water use is less than 64.3 gallons per day.3"This is the first think that I have found that gives a hint of the usage patterns that are used to calculated EF.And I agree with his comments that usage patterns does not match real usage and that it will greatly affect the real world operating eff..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I don't know if anyone pointed out the biggest disadvantage of conventional gas water heaters-- when they fail, there is the potential for flooding which could be expensive depending on the location of the unit and the time between leakage and discovery of same.
Our local codes require two inch deep pans with drains to the exterior and all T&P valves drain to the outside as well. I frankly think any plumbing failure has a chance to be catastrophic and in many projects I have not seen a traditional tank failure.
Most plumbing failures I have seen have been valves at toilets and sinks.
Bruce
What Hiker said -- all plumbing can fail. Water heater failures tend to be fairly tame compared to overflowing toilets, split compression joints, etc.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
"What Hiker said -- all plumbing can fail. Water heater failures tend to be fairly tame compared to overflowing toilets, split compression joints, etc."That's good to know. I looked in to tankless last year, rejected it due to issues already mentioned (install cost, power venting needed, plus no hot water when the electric is out). My neighbors water heater, same builder, age (11 years) and brand failed and flooded their garage so I replaced mine before it failed. Was that paranoid? My water heater is on legs, no drip pan or drain plus there's a good bit of equipment that could be damaged. Here's a pic.
We've had four significant leaks in our house in 32 years. Two within the first year were compression joints that let go under sinks (one cracked nut and one joint where the tubing wasn't all the way into the fitting. These caused moderate drywall damage. The third was a failed hose in the water softener -- caught it just shy of causing drywall damage. The forth was a failed hose feeding the humidifier -- the AC service guys got the plastic hose up against the flue. (It's metal now.)And of course we've had the toilet overflow a couple of dozen times and one case of a bad fill valve spraying the wall while filling. None of these were serious enough to cause damage.Still have the original electric water heater. Been through 4-5 thermostats and two elements, but the tank is still holding.My experience with failed water heaters was at my parents' house where the unit (gas) developed a trickle of a leak. This was in an unfinished utility area so no damage, but in a finished area it could have been easily contained with a pan under the unit.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Oh, yeah -- great pic!
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
"Oh, yeah -- great pic!"Sorry...can't get it to attach.
Doh!
Water heater is on a stand--difficult to put a pan under it . . .
If tankless were really more efficient, why is it that the
Japanese, who used to have two tankless units in every
household, are now abandoning tankless for heat pumps?
Because Japan has no oil or gas of their own, but does have nuclear? And heat pumps can be very efficient?
Just a guess.
But that's what I'm planning for my new place - a heat pump water heater.
It doesn't matter whether you have your own gas or not,
your utility still has to pay the market price for it,
whether it's in Japan or the US. Inevitably at the mercy
of Mr. Putin.Heat pumps have a lower cost per BTU if you live in an area
where you can get cheap Off Peak or nighttime electricity,
which is the case in Japan, California and many other places.
The differential between daytime and night-time in Tokyo is
$.26 /kw to $.04. I think in certain places in Southern CA
it's even greater, perhaps 10:1.If you wanted to go the heat pump route, one big advantage
you have in the USA over the Japanese is that you usually have
a big enough plot in which you can do the inexpensive deep trench
type geothermal and use a ground source heat pump with that.If you've got enough space to dig a couple hundred feet of
trench then that's a no-brainer, I think. Mr. Putin can go
to h3ll.
I am not sure, anymore, that I would care as much about the efficiency to operate over the conventional methods, but rather the Point Of Use tankless conditions providing immediate conditioned water and not throwing 1-5 gallons down the drain while waiting.
I know that some will recommend a recirculating system for get around this loss, but installing that in a finished home seems to be a lot more work--but keep in mind this is coming from a comsumer, not a plumber.