In our city the state does the elec, mechanical, and plunbing inspections. A friend across the street is converting a existing older home into office space. They are meeting all the ADA requirements, ramping, bathroom, ect…. Now the state plumbing says to install a ADA compliant drinking fountain!!!! Outside the bathroom area. A water cooler or the bathroom sink does’t count.
What would be your reply to the inspector, they feel they are asking a bit much.
Keep in mind this is just a small office space.
Replies
I would put a mini fridge and sell bottled water. Way cheaper and he could make a profit.
why not just install an ADA water foutain. They cheap all they need is a power source, a drain and a supply line. simple, hangs on the wall. 1 /2 days work
Borrow one, hang it, get inspected, & take it back...
I would guess the water fountain will cost way more than a mini fridge and the costs to install it with a licensed plumber and electrician will really push up the price. Then he has to pay to run it forever with no pay back. All for something that might never get used.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemId=1613544847
My reply..
"Thank You, I was unaware that the fountain was needed. Have a nice day and I hope to see you again on my next job"
So I take it by the reply's, that the water fountain is not an out of line request??
If it is in the ADA Code then it is not a request it is a requirement, unless the code allows for some option or perhaps an occupancy limit on it's requirement.
Google up the code and start reading ..
I don't have my book at home, but I don't think it's an ADA issue. The ADA would require that a source of drinking water would have to be readily accessible to a handicap person, but I doin't think they would tell you how to provide the water.
It is more likely a local code item. I'm a little surprised you can't use a bottle water cooler.
Ok, here's part of the ADA Guidelines:
4.15 Drinking Fountains and Water Coolers.
4.15.1Minimum Number. Drinking fountains or water coolers required to be accessible by 4.1 shall comply with 4.15.
Based on that wording, I would argue that either a fountain or cooler could be used. However, the Act allows state and local jurisdictions to make changes to the guidelines, as long as they are no less restrictive. For example, Texas has adopted the Texas Accessibility Standards, which requires an elevator in a two story office building, whereas the federal guidelines require an elevator in a building with more than two floors.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 12/16/2006 5:56 pm ET by FastEddie
Are ADA compliant (for accessibility ) Bottled water coolers even made and sold? I don't know , just asking.I did find this :
http://www.camarillowaterstore.com/item72870.ctlg
But it isn't a bottle fed system.And the Code : http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/about/guide.htm#Drinking
Edited 12/16/2006 9:21 pm ET by dovetail97128
My intent is not to argue with the inspector, that a no win. But I was told that the state plumbing inspector is requiring a water fountian, a water cooler will not do.
There is no local ordiances that pertains in the plumbing code in the city, it's all under the state.
I thought it was odd that a cooler would not apply.
Politely ask to see the ordinance in writing, then negotiate.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I think a cooler wont work because somebody has to keep water in it, change the bottle. a fountain is pretty much maintance free. with a cooler you could stop service or remove it a couple months later.
The ADA compliant fountain is mounted low enough so a person in a wheel chair can reach. It overhangs from the wall so the person can get underneath it. The overhang may be the reason the bottled unit is unacceptable.
Jason
What would be your reply to the inspector
"Yes, sir; yes, sir, three bags full," or something to that effect. ADA is a Federal law and it's a civil rights issue, so I wouldn't want to run afoul of anyone in that area!
when I built my house I poured the front porch even with the slab. I knew one day a wheelchair will be neccasary. I got wrote up by the ex walmart brother in law county inspector.Told them I has an appointment with the local paper, we was going talk about how the county refuse to let me build an handicapped assertable house.Five minutes later it was, No sir, here your certificate of occupty.
Does the small office have a coffee bar area, lunch room, with an ADA compliant sink? That has worked for me in and around Chicago. You just have to make sure the sink in this location is ADA compliant.
Yeah, what I don't understand is why a water fountain is required at all.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
The building was a single famaliy resident that has been rezoned commercial and they are putting in a cematary monument sale business. 1 mabe 2 people employees, including the owners. Hours are by appointment.
We are talking a low traffic type of business. This has been 1 of many hurdles they have had to jump threw and it's getting a bit much.
We have done basicly the same thing with our business acrocc the street and didn't have this request. We have a ADA bathroom and the water cooler was after thought as a convience for my clients.
Just asking for opinions, thanks.
Earlier this year I did a comercial project. A dirinking cooler similar to this was installed. http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/oasis-versacooler-2-pr8acsl-pracsl.jpg
One fountain was just kind of a slave off the main fountain/cooler.
Yeah, if there's an existing refrigerated fountain, often the lowered fountain can be "slaved" off it. This lets you use a non-refrigerated unit that's maybe $500 vs $2500.Also, I did find an article that says that bottled water dealers can install ADA-compliant coolers. Haven't been able to find an example of one, though. (But a call to the local bottled water folks might pay off.)Of course, in this situation the amount of space consumed is of concern, plus there needs to be the appropriate wheelchair space around the cooler (probably about a 5-foot radius, I'd guess.Might be that the easiest thing to do is to remove the existing fountain and provide folks a cup dispensor at the sink.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
Edited 12/17/2006 6:06 pm by DanH
You have to keep in mind that the ADA is not just another code requirement, it's the law. The thinking of having things accessible is that people with limited accessicibily need to be able to have access to everything without anyone's assitance. And there is nothing wrong with that. Access into a public building, access into a public bathroom, access to drink water, etc.
In the early days of ADA, I heard of one case where it was accecptable for an existing dry cleaner to have a sign in the window that said "Honk for ADA assistance". The clerk would then come out to the car to take the clothes from the car of a handicapped person. However, the evolvment of the ADA requirements has been to meet certain requirements by certain dates for existing facities, and for new facilities, depending on their size, occupancy, etc. to comply. Compliance also could not be a financial burden for the Owner. For the longest time, interpretation of the requirement was up to the building official.
Edited 12/21/2006 7:43 am ET by JoeArchitect
What recommendations do folks have for good overviews of ADA issues and approaches?
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I propose we start a worldwide Partnership Against Terror, in which the reasonable people of the world work together to oppose terrorism and the conditions which lead people to that desperate condition.
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I've had to install many water fountains... if i don't have one around then i buy the very cheap "bubblers" as they are called around here... the install is easy IF you have a drain....
but i do know a guy who faced this same thing on a deadline... drilled a hole in the wall plate glued in a pvc drain pipe with a plug in it... plumbed the fountain to it figure'n it'd never fill the trap & pipe full before he got his permit signed off... as far as i know it worked....
but i have had to install one in every commerical space i've ever done... it's not who is there now but who might be there next...
p
I think he will find it will vary quite a bit state to state (not to mention ahj to ahj). The US Dept of Justice is the main ADA driver but here in NC there is a state code with a lot of marginal notes with changes requested by DOJ. The plumbing code calls out fixtures required, ADA says they must be accessible. My county does not recognize the NC Rehab. code which is a little more lenient for change of use.
I am converting a former florist shop and antique showroom (mercantile here) to a Credit Union (business). Inspector was going to make me have two ada exits (2700+sqft). Researched and came up with only one exit based on occupancy formula (28 pers). Went back with printed pages, my inspector was out that day. Told the other one on duty that I had a question, would wait till he was in, did not want him to think I was arguing/going behind his back.
Other guy said ask the head guy ( an acquaintance who was my inspector on my house). Showed him, he said he did not have time then to read it all but on first look he would have to agree. Next day my guy called and said he should not have slept through math class. We joked around and I tried to take a little blame for my non-dimensioned drawings ( he was familiar with the building). I pointed out to all that I was not arguing, just asking for them to show me where I was misreading.
They are pretty reasonable here if you don't p### them off.
They are pretty reasonable here if you don't p### them off.
truer words were never spoken.... I have never had an issue with any inspector that i couldn't work out... mostly i just say... "tell me what you'd like to see here" and i do it.... seems to make em not so picky on other stuff....
I can't even think who would want to argue with an inspector... when i have been a odds with one ... this line has always seemed to work....
"If i do some research and find another way will you look at it and tell me if that would be acceptable? "
it ain't what ya know... it's how you treat people that makes things easy
p
Ypu!
Over in the "big city", Asheville, one of the inspectors has a sign that says" aruguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after awhile you realize the pig likes it".
Over there if you are selling a house you get one of their approved "home inspectors", third party guys who fill out their approved checklist. It is provided to owner and insp dept. You correct the punch list and they send the city guy out for final.
When I did my Aunt's place punchlist yhe city guy pointed out some other items not on list that were current code but certainly not when house was built. Basically firestopping around a vent stack. I said "yes sir". Stuffed some fiberglass in and e-mailed him a picture. He signed off and the realtor picked up c of compliance.
One we used to have here had a father who was an elec. contractor. He was always on the lookout for folks doing their own spark work. The others are fine. When I had a pre-final on my house the head guy came out, gave me a list of about 8 thngs that needed to be completed, not necessarily errors. Said he had guys that built all the time who would have thirty or so things failing on a final.
Building that 1750 sqft addition is what got me started in this line of work years ago, not counting helping Dad build the original house when I was around 10-12.
Bob
Here is a link to the United States Department of Justice ADA guidelines:
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm
In the center of the page, about two links down, is the actual handbook with all the ADA guidelines, titled ADA Standards for Accessible Design. See Section 4.15 which is aptly titled "Drinking Fountains AND Water Coolers".
You might also take a look at your States' code book. In addition to the area that specifically discusses drinking fountains, look at the section where all the definitions are provided. There might be some verbage within those definitions that help you argue your point of providing a water cooler rather than a drinking fountain.
Jen
First thing to do is find the plumbing code stating that a drinking fountain is required. Most building codes just make mention that the plumbing code is in-play with regards to fixtures. A drinking fountain probably is required since the inspector brought it up, but it might be worth checking out.
Second thing to do is find if there are any other accessibility requirements.
A few "additional" and typical accessibility laws have already been mentioned here at FHB, state or local accessibility guidelines, but I ask:
1) are there any federal funds being used for this remodel or development, like national preservation funds? And if so, are they considered "direct federal financial assistance?" If no, then:
2) that likely takes away one big question, which ADAAG (Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines) to use, the 1998 standard or the more recent 2004 ADAAG.
You see, certain federal agencies that provide financial assistance still haven't accepted the 2004 because of their federal regulations (which haven't been re-written) and the current regs do not recognize 2004 (therefore they are still under the older ADAAG). Most public sector developments should be using the 2004 re-write of ADA. Jen's link provided in the post above I believe references the 1998 ADAAG. I would have to look up the differences for water coolers and drinking fountains between the two but I do believe the two varied only slightly in their requirements.
Now, if you find that the plumbing code requires a drinking fountain, and there are no "other" accessibility requirements beyond ADA, and NO direct federal financial assistance is being used, then you probably DO need a drinking fountain conforming to the 2004 ADAAG. And likely, you need TWO drinking fountains: one for someone sitting in a wheel chair (602.5), and one for a person standing (602.7).
And for additional clarification on the issue of the water cooler being a practical consideration:
I can only add this from the 1998 ADAAG Manual, A Guide -- this manual was used to clarify the scoping of the law (I do not believe a 2004 ADAAG guide manual exists at this time).
From Page 63, Ch. 4.15 Drinking Fountains and Water Coolers, "Plumbing Fixtures," it reads, "ADAAG covers fixed units where they are provided. Fixed units are not required over units that are not fixed. Where non-fixed units are provided instead, consideration should be given to their usability by people who use wheelchairs and those who may have difficulty bending or stooping. Non-fixed units, such as bottled water coolers, are recognized as an option in providing additional access where only one fixed unit is provided on a floor."
So it seems to me that there is plenty of wiggle room for having one and the other. Or two of the same, just at different heights... and of course, proper clearances along an accessible route. I wouldn't think that the two drinking fountains would have to be next to the restroom as was originally posted.
Edited 12/18/2006 4:54 pm ET by Astragal
I think you meant to direct this message to the original poster....
But I'll add some further two cents: I realize codes are different everywhere, the number of drinking fountains is usually dependant upon square footage and users per square foot otherwise known as the occupant load. The three or four codes that I have experience under usually require an occupant load of 50 or more before requiring two drinking fountains.
I think it would be difficult to imagine a situation where the quantity of required water fountains is more than one given his situation of adapating an existing first floor residential unit into a business.
Given that this is a retrofit, sometimes codes specify how much money must be spent
***edited to add*** as a percentage of the total construction cost ***end edit***
on ADA related upgrades, and there is usually some sort of ranking for order of importance in which areas those dollars should be spent. For example, providing an ADA compliant entrance is usually first, ADA compliant restrooms second, etc. The original poster should also check out if this is the case in his situation....
Edited 12/18/2006 5:48 pm by Jen
You are correct Jen... I was making several comments on topic to what was previously written...
And, I too have seen a disabled individual show up on a site and start measuring a bathroom. I sometimes don't know what to think about that. On the one hand... .... ...
Cameraman,
The "real" inspection starts after the building is occupied.
It will happen this way. Your friend may be working. Maybe the first sunny day of spring. And a handicap van will pull into the parking lot. And slowly, a sliding door will open, and a handicapped person or maybe even a handicapped lawyer will get out of the van. And he will smile. Because the drinking fountain that never got installed, or put in and taken out after the inspection means another payday....at least where I live.
All kidding aside, and with apologies to who ever wrote Three Days of the Condor, how many drinking fountains could your friend buy for the price of defending himself against 1 ADA violation complaint?
I agree, but they were just venting to me because I am involved with the city. It seems like it's one more thing after the other. And they even had a archy draw up a site plan for the rezoning, parking layout, ect..... I don't know how detailed on the floor plan.
But thanks for all your info.