Hello All,
Though I’m an experienced handyman, I’m a newbie on this site. I plan to add a second floor to my 22′ X 40′ ranch, located in the NYC suburbs. First, I will raise my house 2 feet, by lifting the house (structural movers) of its foundation, and adding 3 rows of reinforced concrete block to the foundation, resulting in a finished 8′ basement ceiling height. I’m currently working with my architect to facilitate the plans and the required permits. When I started planning this project – my first of this size and magnitude – I had tons of questions. Though I’ve been able to obtain answers to many of my questions, through professional publications, websites, forums, etc., a few questions still remain. And I’m sure as I start this project, many more will arise. I plan to do as much of the work on this job as possible, (with hired help – of course).
I’m thinking about using I joists for the floor, ceilings, and maybe even rafters, and laminated lumber for the ceiling beam and roof ridge. I’m considering using SIP’s and possibly rood trusses. I’m also thinking about adding solar panels (either for hot water and possibly for electricity). However, I still haven’t decided yet. I plan to cantilever the sides and back of the second floor as much as possible without it being engineered. I understand that if I use 2 X 10 floor joists, then the bearing walls can overhang by 9 1/2 inches. Is this correct?
The existing 2 X 6 ceiling joists will be replaced/reinforced by 2 X 10s. Will I be able to simply add the new joists next to the existing ones (even though the new ones won’t sit exactly on the corresponding studs – underneath the double plates)? (I figure I shouldn’t have to remove the 2 X 6 s, right?) There is also BX cable laying on top of, and thru the current ceiling joists. Do I have to remove all the BX cable, and reinstall/rewire them when I frame the new deck?
Any other advice for this newbie?
Thnx in advance.
Edited 5/23/2008 12:59 pm ET by djthx
Replies
Welcome to BT!
Have you checked with your town's building department about their requirements? I doubt that any project of this magnitude will be permitted without an engineer's participation. I'm a little surprised that your architect hasn't mentioned that yet.
Try using the "Advanced Search" feature here, above the topics column on the left. Many good threads on the subjects you've mentioned.
Hello,
Thanks for your reply. My architect is working with his engineer to develop the plans for the renovation. I was referring to the cantilever, when I stated that I did not want it to require any extra engineering. In other words, I want to be able to extended (overhang) the second floor on threes sides (all except the front), as much as possible, but to be supported exclusively by the floor joists themselves (without an additional engineered support system).
Thnx again.
Edited 5/23/2008 2:42 pm ET by djthx
Don't be too scared of an engineered floor system. Based on the scope of your project, it wouldn't add too much to the overall cost. I-joists could easily be made to clear span your 22' deep house and handle pretty much any canitilever you'd like.
For framing the new floor and dealing with the existing ceiling joists, I like the method that Framer suggested last year in the thread below. By adding a plate around the perimeter of the existing ceiling joists and framing above with I-joists, you eliminate the need to remove your existing wiring prior to framing the floor. You'll reduce concerns about the framing activities damaging drywall or plaster on the existing ceiling. The only reason I would consider sistering to your existing ceiling joists is if you've got a big problem with the additional 7" or so of rise when the time comes to consider the stairs to the second floor.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=90390.7
Hello.
Thanks for you reply; it was very helpful. I looked at the thread you suggested, and agree that adding a plate around the existing ceiling joists' perimeter makes it less complicated to frame the new floor system, while only adding inches to the overall new floor depth.
However, can you clarify what Framer meant when he suggested "cutting the existing ceiling joists back 1-1/2" and put a solid box around the perimeter and then add a 2x6 or 2x8 plate flat on top of that and nail the new joists on top"? Does he mean cutting back the cjs 1 1/2" next to the rim joist, and inserting a new box of the same depth as the existing ceiling joist? Would the solid perimeter box then be sistered to the existing rim joist? Is this suggested because the older joist/rim joist connection might not be sturdy enough? I mean, I understand the benefits of framing a new floor on top of a new plate (to facilitate bridging, not disturbing the existing ceiling, and sound isolation). But why not just the new box plate to the existing ceiling joist system? Also, I take it that a plate would also be required on top of the center bearing wall plate?
Thnx.
Edited 5/23/2008 5:28 pm ET by djthx
Framer probably suggested cutting back the ceiling joists and adding a rim because typically, there is no rim joist present at the ceiling joist/rafter/top plate intersection, just blocking between the joists and rafters. If you do have a rim joist, you wouldn't need to alter anything - just put the new plate on top.
You would need another plate at the center bearing wall unless you choose to have your new joists designed to span the entire 22' without any intermediate bearing. You may want to consider that idea - it would mean that any future bearing wall removal on the first floor would need much smaller headers or beams. They wouldn't be supporting any floor load from above - just the existing ceiling.
Silly me. I've got to get my head out of the books and websites, and can't wait to get my hands on tools and lumber. Since I rewired/update my electrical system, I can't recall how many times I had to squeeze in between between the rafters and the joists in order to drill a hole to run my cable. Of course there is no rim joist at the ceiling joist, just a double plate. (And I have many roofing nail scars on my head to prove it.)
I will definitely look into an engineered floor system in order to span the entire width of the 2nd floor (current width plus the cantilevers).
Thanks again.
Edited 5/23/2008 5:46 pm ET by djthx
It will be easier to cut cieling joists back1 1/2" install a rim. Then you need a 2x6 plate down the ceter bearing waa and on the outside also.
This will allow you to install new floor joists on top without worring about being directly on top of existing ceiling joists.
most cant. is either 1 foot to make a garrison colonial or 2' to give the upstairs maximum space. If you are doing the work yourself with labor, I would suggest roof trusses, they are easier for DYI, than having to learn how to cut rafters. Trusses can be made for cathedrial ceilings if you want. With trusses you can do just about any roof design.
If my instructions are not understood, let us know.
Did you see the picture thread with Diesalpig. It was posted within the last 3 weeks and shows a 2nd story addition.
I think you were trying to get that post to the OP, 'cause I agree with pretty much everything you say. I would still vote for clear-spanning the floor joists. More flexibility in the future (or now, for that matter). I forgot about Dieselpig's thread.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=104062.1
Sorry about that. Clear spanning is ok, but if a dyi, easier to deal with shorter lengths. If a pro, clear span is the way to go!
Thanks for the input. At this planning stage, I'm considering most alternatives. However, one thing for sure; I will cut the ceiling joists back 1 1/2", install a "rim joist" around the perimeter, and install a plate on top and down the center (on top of the bearing wall).
The 2' overhang is what I'm aiming for. I take it that this is 1' on each side, right? Will I also be able to add a 1' cantilever on the back as well? I've chosen a hip roof - with a couple of valleys, and I'm still deciding between framing it and roof trusses. One of the cons of using the truss system is the lack of storage capacity.
Thanks for the heads up on the Diesalpig thread.
Overhang on the front and back are fairly easy. Basically just extend the joist. But they they are over the depth of the joist then you need bigger/heavier joist.But over hanging on the sides (perpendicular to the joist) is more envolved.You need to change the direction of the joist. IIRC for a distance of 4 times the overhang.And to do that you will need to double up some joist and have some headers..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Not 1', 2' each side! Now that is if you are running the joists the same way.
Welcome, doing the same thing to my son's house (except that it is on a 4 block crawl space and we are leaving it that way) house is 23X66 and it has been enjoyable. Good luck.
there's ranches in NYC????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Hello.
Thats funny. When I stated ranch, I didn't mean a "Home on the Range" ranch with cows, horses, barns, etc. I meant a one floor house. When out of towners hear NYC mentioned, they think of Manhattan, one of NYC's 5 boroughs. My house is on the outskirts of the city, in a town called Fresh Meadows (in the borough of Queens), very close to the Long Island border.
Edited 5/23/2008 5:26 pm ET by djthx
Edited 5/23/2008 5:31 pm ET by djthx
hello yurself....
I be one of the out of towners....
guess it showed already though....
ROAR!!!!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"there's ranches in NYC????"They ain't full size ranches.Just little ranches where they raise ranch dressing..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
ahhhhhh....
Ranchetts.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The only advantage to not ripping out the ceiling joists completely is that you could (possibly) save any gyprock ceiling attached to them. I said 'possibly' because with all the work you'll be doing--especially jacking up the house and then dropping it again on the bumped up foundation--the likelihood is that you're gonna crack the gyprock anyway.
It will be a lot easier for a DIY guy to just rip all that stuff off and start over at the top plates with the proper sized floor joists. Trying to build around an existing ceiling frame will take you time and futzing you'll better spend elsewhere. BTW, the easist way (physically) to pull all that stuff off of there is to cut it loose from the top plates with a sawzall and pick the whole roof, ceiling frame & ceiling sheathing off in a few big pieces with a shovel or small crane. Have the shovel guy crunch it up and drop it in a container and you'll be done in two hours.
View Image
If you're worried about having to replace the gyprock ceiling--which, I grant you is a PITA unless you just love gyprock--you should think about alternatives to gyprock. There are many.
For instance; 2x6 red-pine roof decking laid over oversized Doug-fir joists will give you both the finish floor to your new second storey and the ceiling to your first floor. The T&G joint is v-jointed on the bottom (for the ceiling) and flush on the top (so you can sand it flat to finish your floor). A design like this obviously calls for exposed floor joists of the sort you see in a lot of timber frames. Something like that might be a 'first' in Fresh Meadows, but don't chuck the possibility outta bed without thinking about it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
You obviously have never worked in NY. The lots are tiny! and I mean small!
Actually I grew up in Queens and I know Fresh Meadows quite well. The lots there are bigger than they are in Hollis where I lived for 10 years.
Well, some bigger.
LOL.
Okay, the shovel guy would have to wait till alternate side of the street parking was on the other side of the street before he could get in there. But other than that, if I can park a NYC taxicab in a space 2' shorter than the cab (and I can), any good New Yaawwk shovel operator oughta be able to handle that little job....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"I can park a NYC taxicab in a space 2' shorter than the cab"
"any good New Yaawwk shovel operator oughta be able to handle that little job""Okay, the shovel guy would have to wait till alternate side of the street parking was on the other side of the street "Why?A good shovel operator oughta be able to handle that part also..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
A good shovel operator oughta be able to handle that part also.
make the cab 2' shorter???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
A good shovel operator oughta be able to handle that part also.
Sure he could move the cars easy, but he'd still have to have somewhere to put them. If he just shoved them across the street they'd get ticketed and towed, and then the owners would get pissed off.
Seriously, with a little prep (permits and cones to keep the shovel's access clear) it is perfectly doable. Even in Hollis where I grew up there is just enough 'front lawn' for a medium-sized excavator to park. In Fresh Meadows, the lots are larger. The shovel might have its buns on the sidewalk, but it wouldn't block the street. And like I said, it'd only be there a couple or three hours.
201st Street in Hollis where I lived is lined with 16'x50' 2½-story houses set 12" apart on one side and sharing a common 6½'-wide driveway on the other. They're tall. You couldn't reach the roof of one of those with a shovel small enough to get in there, but a 1-story ranch in Fresh Meadows (an area just a bit south of Flushing where the 1939 Worlds Fair was sited) would present no such problem.
But in general, what frammer said about construction sites in NYC is true. Especially Manhattan. It is truly amazing how much gear and equipment those crews can stuff into how few square feet and still have room to swing a hammer.
Sometimes I think they do it with mirrors....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....