Advice on my ceiling work (crying uncle)
Howdy folks.
Been a bit of time between posts. We’re remodeling an old brick church into a residence. We’ve exposed the old trusses above the sanctuary and are building a ceiling just under the roof to make the trusses part of the interior envelope.
The ceiling we’re building is out of white pine t&g, which we’re sealing on the face with a matte finish (no stain). It would be simple, except our ceiling planks run horizontal, and the trusses are naturally vertical, so there are many points of intersection that require notching the t&g. It’s pretty tedious (though looks ok when done with care).
Here’s a set of recent photos:
http://www.eyepulp.net/photo/set/72157605807276046/
Here are a few of the stages leading up to the current state of affairs (sorry for any repeats):
Early days: http://www.eyepulp.net/photo/set/72157605530365768/
First truss exposure: http://www.eyepulp.net/photo/set/72157605530352478/
Early T&G work: http://www.eyepulp.net/photo/set/72157605705083579/
The problem is that I’m doing all this work on my own, and it’s really time-consuming. I’m 1) un-skilled and 2) lacking about 4 extra arms and hands to hold the 16ft planks in place and hammer them home. I’m completely willing to hire this task out, but don’t know where to begin either looking for skilled labor or figuring out what’s a reasonable price for the effort.
Anyhow, I’m guessing it falls under basic or finish carpentry. I just haven’t heard too many strong word-of-mouth recommendations of people in this area (Central Illinois region). I’m afraid to start calling randomly out of the phone book.
There’s no doubt I’m in over my head, and I’m willing myself out – it’s just taking way too long. I’m ready to pay someone else to bring a shovel. =)
Any hiring pointers or advice?
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Replies
Well, if it' weren't for the 100 or so mile drive, and the fact that I too am swampped with work, I'd gladly lend a hand. But since I can't I'll offer my advice at no charge. :)
I think you have to take a chance and hire anybody who is reasonable competent and able, regardless of their skill. Assume they know little or nothing and are only there to hold one end, move stuff around, clean up, etc... In other words, an unskilled laborer. It's up to you to make all the meticulous measuring and cutting.
I can't say where to look, since I don't know your area. But I'm sure there are some competent youngsters that could use a few extra dollars. One thing I can say is that you should think it through before even starting the search, exactly what tasks your helper would be doing. Then plan your work so that he or she is not waiting around for something to do. Maybe some other chores that need done to keep the worker busy while you don't need their help.
Once you've thought it through you should have a good idea of exactly the kind of person you need - young and energetic, older and dependable, semi-skilled or completely unskilled... Then post an ad in the local paper, pin a couple of ads up on store bulletin boards, ask around you local church group or similar organization.
I would think a teenager looking for some extra spending money would be glad to take on the task, and would probably enjoy learning a little about carpentry as well.
Good luck with your search. :D
I agree w/ Ted. Hire unskilled labor. You obviously have the skills to get as far as you did. So why waste the money on someone else to do what you have already had the skills to do?
I looks beautiful by the way.
Good luck........How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
"It is what it is."
try a help wanted ad on craigslist,i did that a while back and was amazed at the response,theres some pretty good people out there that need a job. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Try the local high school if they have any vocatonal training/industrial ed/wood shop/building trades classes. That's how I got one of my early jobs as a carpenter.
The finsihed product in your pics looks pretty nice.
It does look fantastic. I've thought about something similar for my bedroom. I live in the tropical jungles of Tennessee, I can't find an insulation plan I lilke. Maybe I'm just overthinking it.
You guys are much too kind. The thing is I'm pretty sure I want to throw money at someone else - I'm taking way too long. Thank you for saying it looks nice - I am mostly happy with the finished look (though like everyone here can probably gripe about some details until you fall asleep).I'm heading into town to one of the last lumber yards. I've asked at the Big Box stores, but they're pretty short on skilled recommendations. I figure a real, actual lumberyard deals with some real, actual skilled labor.arcflash: For insulation we did icynene up against the back of the roof sheathing. About 6-8 inches deep in most places. I've checked with a infrared temp gauge, and the peak and floor stay within about 4 degrees of each other until the end of the day, when our brick starts radiating back inside and cooking the place. Once we get some A/C or fans, I think the icynene will prove to have been a good investment. Until then, my wife will just point and laugh. =)--------------------------
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I'm not familiar with icynene. I thought you had used polyurethane. Did you venilate? Venilation is a must here. The humidity gets rediculous around here sometimes.
Since there is no attic space, there's nothing to ventilate (except the actuual home interior with fans or AC). They call the roof a "hot roof" because (I believe) the heat only reaches the shingles and then gets stopped at the insulation. This *can* shorten shingle life, depending on the shingle, but inside it's all conditioned space.And you're right - it gets ridiculously humid here. =P This will be our third summer without AC.--------------------------
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What are you nailing the boards with? Just curious. I just bought a cordless trim gun that would eat a job like this right up. My next question: where did you get a church from?
"where did you get a church from?'God? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Was God selling through a mortgage broker, or as a private sale?
I'm pretty sure he sold it through a mortgage broker LOL. Around these parts they call them something...umm....Pastor maybe? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
From the photos, you have the staging and not going for tight joints to the truss. Your problems are you have to work around all that wood and have to measure, cut and install yourself and that is lot of time going up and down, and maybe even moving the staging.
You may consider making a cutting station for your stage so you can cut right there. Compromise the look of long lengths for shorter lengths so you can maneuver in the truss. Cut with either light-weight cordless saw with tri-square(name?) and jig saw. Having said that, I also think such a staging in that area might be an overkill. It is best to work off the stage, but holding a piece of wood and nailing it off can be done off the ladder, and from what I can see you have all that truss to rest the ladder. A cleat can be also screwed into the truss to rest the ladder. If moving the stage is time consuming, just using a ladder may save time on maneuvering. If you are renting the stage, the is certainly a consideration. If you feel safe and comfortable on the stage, discard this point.
This point is my observation and preference, but the truss you have is not really a selling point. I assume you plan to sell. The joints are roughly overlapped and because of site-improvised bracing wood, it takes away from clean, open look of the exposed truss design. You already did a lot of work, so finish this part. If you have other areas with same plan, you may want to take a second look and change the plan of open truss. Keep the work done as an accent piece.
Some day laborers come with limited experience. You need someone to measure and nail, but learning time on this should be short with you monitoring the measuring. Some nailing mistake can be fixed with wood filler, especially the ceiling is high up. You should cut. If you know where the laborers gather, and if this is legal in your area, look for a representative in the group who will speak some english. Ask for someone with nailing and measuring skill. Take the tools with you and show them. In northeast NJ, they ask for $10 an hour and more than just a few hours of work a day. I guarantee at least 7 hours. I bought light breakfast, decent lunch and a jug of water. If the laborer haggles about the price or the hour, pick someone else. I also drove them to pick up site or close to where they live if it is on the way. You could hire 2. You cut, one nails and the other can help with holding, maneuvering and general clean up. You will be amazed by how quickly the work will go. You must watch them and be sure they are working safely. Many of them are not used to working on a stage. You may consider roping off the deck.
More skilled people may be easier to find these days. Check local papers for advertisement. You can check the reference if any and start with hourly pay. Your work does not require that much experience and having to move around all that wood takes more time than anything, so you could look for someone who advertises as handyman than a carpenter. Neat appearance, curtesy and listening are fairly good measures. Discuss some details and don't assume you should not have to ask some questions for skill or maybe offending. Generally wisdom is not to go with the lowest bid. This is probably true in all cases. You just have to average out all factors. Hope this helps.
Hey k1c;
Wow - lots of good food for thought in your response. Thanks for taking the time to write all that. Of all the things you said, the point about the site-improvised wood bracing hit home the most.There are at 3 boards on the lower section of each truss that tie the upper and lower truss beams together. These boards are very tough to cut accurately around, and rarely span the 7" height of an entire plank - so it becomes a notch. Making notches for unevenly sized and spaced cutouts along a 16' plank is a bit of a headache. I've built some metal jigs that give me some accuracy over long pieces ( http://www.eyepulp.net/photo/2593478858/ ), but the fewer cuts I have to make the faster all of this goes.So now I'm seriously considering re-doing the lower section of ceiling with all those braces. If I don't need the braces structurally, why not pull them and make things immensely easier on the other three identical sections. It's at 2 notches per brace X 3 braces X 8 trusses. It's a lot of cuts what are all different in depth and distance.I'll try to find a local structural engineer to get an up close opinion, but does anyone else want to weigh in?The original building had a slate roof, and the interior ceiling was attached to the lower trusses and was all plaster and lath. Now it's an asphalt shingled roof with no more plaster and lath. So it's lost a huge amount of weight.Anyone care to weigh in with an opinion?PS: I bought the church after it stopped being a church by about 6 years. As I told my mom, "hey, now I'll never be late to church on Sunday."--------------------------
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So, are you going to live there or sell it? Personally, I would live there myself. How friggen' cool would it be to live there. Seriously though, some remarkable architectural details you won't find anywhere else. I think you are right on track with your remodel. Keep it up, don't give up, and post more pictures for us!
Edit: I wouldn't alter the trusses without the go ahead from an engineer. I dont see anything wrong with your progress so far. You might add fasteners to the braces, but anything more needs an engineer's approval.
Edited 7/20/2008 2:31 pm ET by arcflash
Edited 7/20/2008 2:35 pm ET by arcflash
Thanks for the "support" arcflash. Truss jokes never get old.Yeah, we plan on staying here quite a while. Re-sale isn't a concern, or at least is never one of the factors when making a design decision. I want it to be structurally sound, true to the original structure when possible or reasonable, and in the end a testament to the craftsmanship of the people who built it a hundred years ago.That being said - if I can pull a few of those supports safely, I'm ALL OVER IT. =)PS: The bell in the bell tower is still operable.--------------------------
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I would not remove any bracing until you have an engineer's ok. If your town inspector saw the rough framing part and did not say anything, that is probably because all the structure is "grandfathered" into the present structure. If you start changing the structure, the rule no longer applies.
If the roof held with slate, that may be because of the pitch of the roof. So just because roofing became lighter does not mean you can remove the reinforcements. Since all the wood up there is slowing down the work, it may actually save you time and money to pay an engineer to see if bracings can be made simpler. Engineer is not cheap but that cost could even improve what the finished space looks like. Good luck.
Thanks again k1c.I'm having my neighbor who does general contracting give me a Sunday afternoon opinion, and then this week I'll get a hold of an engineer I've dealt with on commercial stuff.I agree with you on all points though - the skinny support braces (if not needed structurally) do not add to the appearance. It's entirely worth re-doing those planks and removing the supports on the single finished quarter so that the other 75% goes faster and looks better.Measure twice, cut thrice. =)--------------------------
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from what I recall from looking at yoru pics those braces you refer to in your trusses are indeed structural, a structural part of your trusses. Without them you dont' have a truss. Without them your roof collpases. Getting engineering support to remove them will end up with the report requiring something to be installed to take it's place which I'd bet wouldn't be too different from what you already have. And I bet the rafter chord that's used on the trusses wouldn't pass as a stand alone rafter so you'd have to rip down what you're currently putting up.
But I'm not the Truss Expert, Bosshog is (along with one other not so frequent poster). Try addressing a post directly to him so that he sees this thread. You can address sepcifically to him in the [To:] box when you create a message/reply or hit others and enter Bosshog.
This thread has changed from a "who do I hire" thread to a "can I make this easier and keep doing it myself" thread.The question now (and why I'm pointing it to BossHog) is whether there might be some options for cleaning up the trusses and removing a few of the lesser supports without taking undue structural risks. The reasons for removal are for both visual improvement (the smaller supports are unevenly sized and spaced) and to make putting up the ceiling a much faster proposition.Here's a basic diagram of the trusses:http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3164/2686775375_37780bcdd4_o.jpgAnd I'm trying to determine if the lower yellow supports need to stay for the trusses to keep doing their job.I'll be trying to get an engineer out here this week to give me the final 2 cents on it. Any thoughts or opinions are welcome.--------------------------
My kingdom for more tools
Edited 7/20/2008 9:16 pm by EyePulp
I think that one of the best recommendations so far is to get your cut station 'up there' to save time. Also, I wouldn't hire anyone without workman's comp insurance.
Good luck with the altar-ations ;o)Jeff
Edited 7/20/2008 10:21 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
"I'm trying to determine if the lower yellow supports need to stay for the trusses to keep doing their job."
They look like add ons, or an after thought. But it's hard to say without reviewing the span, pitch, loading conditions, etc.
If particular care and attention are not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation.
[Abigail Adams, in a letter to her husband John]
very very nice.
i'm going to borrow your cars since you are too busy to need them right now.
carpenter in transition