I know most of you guys are contractors, but I’m hoping to get some advice on whether or not to be my own general contractor. I’ve heard the cost savings can be rather significant, but quality construction is also very important. We are in the planning stages of constructing our new home and I’m trying to get everything lined up. I realized their may be an inherit bias based upon the Breaktime general populous, but any honest advice would be greatly appreciated!
1. Because you are viewed as a “one-shot” job, is it difficult to deal with subs?
2. How much, if any, are the general cost savings realized by being your own GC?
3. Are there any specific skill sets you would need to be your own GC?
Thanks in advance,
Kory Kyzar
Replies
You don't mind if I ask what line of work your in?
Not only what line of work, but also, how many hours will you be on-site, and also, which, if any, of the jobs do your plan to undertake yourself? What's your knowledge of each of the sub-contractor's jobs?
IMHO, most homeowners, HOs, that attempt to be their own GC are just too close, emotionally involved, in the project. They torture themselves over minor issues and make small problems seem to be much greater than they actually are. They lack perspective.
Their emotional loading of all issues and vacillation or indecision on issues irritates contractors no end, slows progress and causes event to happen out of sequence. This further causes events to slow down or even have to be redone. Greatly increasing costs.
The few HO GCs that worked out well were well established GCs before they built their own home. They had been down the road many times before. The other point is that they had friendly and well established relationships with the subcontractors. They know how to coordinate, and sometimes officiate, between contractors so that each meshes well with all others.
Little things like frame carpenters adding blocking in the right spots can make everything, trim carpentry, plumbing, wiring and hanging pictures and hand holds in the bathroom much easier. If you don't know what to ask for and what to look for odds are something will be missed. Little things like this can throw off scheduling and timing. Before too long trades are in each others way and bumping heads.
IMHO you would do better getting a CG that has a good record. Preferably one which you have a long, friendly, relationship. Someone who knows your tastes and preferences. Or at least one who can become a reasonable facsimile of the above in a reasonable time. Someone you can trust and feel trust in. It will also help if he has experience in the area and stable of capable and compatible subs in the area to call.
1. depends on the subs and what you pay them.
2. What's your time worth?
3. As a full time, full service G.C., there seems to be two characteristics that make up the bulk of my clients:
A. They have tried to do the work themselves or acted as their own G.C.
B. They have hired based solely cost. Savings. Bids.
And they are the most delightful people to work with.
So I'd like to think that defining my "set skills" could be defined in one one word:
Professional.
Looks like you have your eyes open to potential downside of HO/GC project. I'm about 1/2 way though a project for which I am the GC, and am also doing the electrical, plumbing, sheetrock, HVAC, siding, and trim.
1. Because you are viewed as a "one-shot" job, is it difficult to deal with subs?
That's one of the problems, but another to be aware of is that you may unknowingly contract out jobs with subs who have not worked together before, thus creating communication and quality control problems...or worse who may not LIKE to work on the same job. So when interviewing prospective subs, you need to address this. I was lucky to engage a framer who was flexible and lined up the roofer for me. He also provided alot of GC-type advise, for which he charged a fee over and above labor and materials.
2. How much, if any, are the general cost savings realized by being your own GC?
Probably not very much, depending on how much time you can afford to spend away from your day job to be on site to make sure that quality and job coordination are satisfactory
3. Are there any specific skill sets you would need to be your own GC?
Communication, communication, communication...and a highly developed vocabulary of all sorts of trade jargon. If you do not already have this vocabulary, and decide to go ahead with the GC role anyway, you'll at least need a mentor...someone with lots of experience in the trades, to help you out. I could not do this without a best friend who I lunch with every week, who is a project manager for a high-end remodelor in town, and a GC BIL who owes me a few favors.
Good luck.
I have been through this process as an owner builder and will try to answer your questions as directly as possible. I had an advantage as I had a number of subcontractor contacts prior to beginning the project.
1. Because you are viewed as a "one-shot" job, is it difficult to deal with subs?
Somewhat - you may not be given preference in scheduling. You may also be charged a little more than a regular customer (builder). Some subcontractors will charge more if you require a written contract, however you must get every contractor to supply a certificate of insurance - it is a standard document (supplied by insurance companies) and it is standard procedure. Try to have as much communication with subs prior to the work being performed as is possible without over-doing it. This will help avert misunderstandings. Who supplies what materials, etc.
2. How much, if any, are the general cost savings realized by being your own GC?
You can probably save 10 - 20% (max) of the overall cost of the house (only) if subcontractor's do all the work. You may be able to save a little more If you perform significant parts of the construction yourself. These savings can easily be blown by making poor decisions, or overbuilding. Really, if your only reason for GCing a house is to save money, I'd say forget it. Dollar wise, you'd be more productive working overtime doing whatever it is you do for a living.
3. Are there any specific skill sets you would need to be your own GC?
There are books written to answer this question, but I'll hit a few high points. You need to get a construction schedule figured out - not so much a timeline as a sequence of events. There are many interdependencies. You need to be familiar with every aspect of construction. Not that you actually have the skill to perform each job, but that you know what each job entails. And you need to know what is LOCAL accepted practice. For example, someone here at Breaktime might tell you that you must form your footers, where as where I live, the soil is mostly stiff clay and forms are entirely unnecessary. You can learn this by visiting as many houses that are under construction as is possible, and from talking to local contractors. If you had a good friend in the business it would help immensely. You need to be good with projecting expenditures and budgeting money. There are estimating services around who can do a pretty good job, given the right information, but they most be local.
There is lots more, but that is all the time I have for now...
I'd say one of the keys is to have good subs. I wound up having to be my own GC after the contractor went bankrupt; luckly, most of the subs (all but one) knew it wasn't my fault they weren't paid, and we all worked together. They pretty well all knew each other, and I was able to hire the two lead carps that were suddenly unemployed. They were worth their weight in gold, since this was a case of taking over when the house was 75% complete, and they knew what the story was on everything.
Expect to spend a lot of time chasing subs; that's what the GC gets paid for, isn't it??? You may also find the inspector is a dickhead if you aren't an established contractor; I found our guy was being a dick just because of the situation, until one of the other contractors working in the area asked him why he was giving me a hard time over stuff he never asks any of the contractors to do (taping and crackfilling a garage, for example). After he knew I was talking to the other contractors, he stopped being a dick.
Thanks for all the advice, so far. To answer some of your questions about me.
1. I'm currently an Information Services Coordinator (ie. computer geek)
2. Paid salary and hours are pretty flexible so I would be able to make frequent stops by the job site.
Prior to my current job, I've worked about 5 years in lumber yards/supply houses which should come in handy when finding subs. The only real construction experience I've had is building a couple of shops and that was mostly metal work.
When looking at what jobs I could perform myself, I have to step back and ask my self if I really have the necessary skills to perform said job well. With that in mind, foundation work (footings and so forth) and painting are the only things that I would currently feel comfortable doing my self. That's not to say I couldn't study up and learn to do some other things.
Let me ask about another option I've heard mentioned. When my wife's parents built their house they say the the supply house whom they got the majority of their materials from was listed as the GC. I'm assuming the supply house arranged for all the work to be done by the various subs, and in return my in-laws agreed to purchase all their materials from them. I've not heard of this type of arrangement before, is it common?
Different scenario. Say, I hired the GC, when would be the right time to bring them into the picture? Before blueprints are finalized? After?
I know I'm getting long-winded, but you all have so much information to offer!
Thanks again,
Kory Kyzar
>Say, I hired the GC, when would be the right time to bring them into the picture? Before blueprints are finalized? After?
As a designer, I like to have the builder involved once I have a general concept together. Then if there are choices to make that don't matter to me or the owner, I can direct them in a way that the builder prefers. For example, window mfg, or some of the detailing.
The only challenge I've seen with this is that the builder cannot prepare the full contract till the prints are done, and I've yet to work with anyone who had a contract for pre-construction services. That opens the possibility that the owner will use some of the builder's time and then ditch him for a different builder later. Haven't figured out the best way to handle this, and it's not much in my control either.
I'm also a computer person by day that added 1500 sq ft to my house and GC'd it myself.
Are you going to do any of the work yourself? If not don't bother being the GC. If you are going to do some of the work then you can save yourself a lot of money.
I found being a one shot job helped me save money with the subs I hired (Drywall, roofing, siding, electric) I knew my project was going to take at least a year so when getting pricing I let them know I was in no rush and they could take longer than usual to finish. The guys I hired would come by and do work when they had down time on other "bigger"jobs. The 1 week drywall job took 4 weeks to complete and I paid the same rate he charges his regular builders. ( I also refered him to 5 people and he was hired by 4 of them)
Being a GC allows you to pick and choose what you want to do or think you can do and if you get in over your head you can always hire someone to do that job.
Last reason to be your own GC. If a sub isn't living up to their end you don't pay them. If you hire a GC and a sub is not fullfilling their part of the contract you have no recourse and have to hope the GC will handle it.
I'm in the process right now. I've done one before. It's a rollercoaster. One day you want to throw in the towel, and the next things are great. I am not saving a dime, but I could not afford to pay a GC for the amount and style of house we're building. We opted for a custom that we designed and blueprinted ourselves. It's not a cost-efficient style (lots of jogs in the foundation -- then it goes up from there, no pun intended!)
#1: Know exactly what I want before I talk to anybody, but don't get what you want from books. You need to get it from a professional. See the irony? This is the biggest issue as I see it.
#2: Trust your gut when you deal with people...no matter how much time delay.
#3: The contracters who deal with you are aware that you'll likely pay them long before any GC would. So le thm know you'll pay them exactly when the work is done, if it's done right.
Hey Kory: I'm G/Cing my own house as we write.
I have helped with the site work,septic,siding,done the electrical,plumbing ,alarm,I will do the heating and everything else.Its taking way longer than I thought.But I have the best of everything in the house.
Can you save money yes sort of kind-of. If you can line your subs up and keep the flow going YES.But it comes with a lot of headaches
1. Because you are viewed as a "one-shot" job, is it difficult to deal with subs
Tuff question to answer-depends on the sub and Both of your expectations of the job.I know I'm not the subs bread and butter but I offered CASH as the incentive.
How much, if any, are the general cost savings realized by being your own GC?
Like the other poster said maybe 10-20% I haven't really added the numbers,but I have saved money doing the above trades myself ,plus I overbuilt everything( so I don't have to screw around adding stuff later) But the time it takes you to finish( your mortgage,taxes and insurance still has to be paid) while your waiting for the next sub ,who cant get there right after the last sub adds $$ to the project
3. Are there any specific skill sets you would need to be your own GC?
I don't think so but its a great help to know what the heck is going on.The subs are NOT there to HOLD your hand,do your home work way ahead of time.Let me know if you want some of my tips or mistakes for that one.
I have a friend who had a G/C build his house and it was a nitemare(tons of problems).They finally worked most of it out,so the G/C ask,s for the last draw $25,000 to order more material my friend gives it to him.The G/C never comes back to do the work stiffs him for the $25,000.I have a couple of horror stories myself but I wont bore you with them.
The above posters were excellent
PS (I will still build another one) now that I know wants going on
I responded earlier, but have to chime in on the cash thing. Offering cash in hand on the day the sub is done, and then following through, just about makes up the difference between a "one shot" attitude and whatever attitiude the sub has to a "real" GC. (IMHO)
And remember that you WILL probably be more than a one shot deal...the concrete guy that does your garage slab, if you pay him right, will respond quicker when you need him to come back to do the footings-foundation-basement slab. Pay the plumber cash at rough-in, and he'll come back quicker for fixture install. etc.
How about some of you subs...what can a HO/GC do at any/all stages of the project to get better and happier all around results?
Edited 1/5/2004 2:31:06 PM ET by johnnyd
Ok once you figure how much money you think you will save devide it by how many years the house will be standing. The jobs that go wrong are often from lack of EXPERIENCE.Read threw the threads here and you will see even those of us with experience come out with bruized knuckles.An idea for you is to find the right GC and arrange to work closely with him or her and in the end you still wont have enough experience.Hay, but it can be done, I just wont recomend it
keep your claw away from the head of the nail and for your kids sake get a hard hat on. Canadian carpenters do it in the snow.
I got my Spec House from Hell
thread put back up again. I hope you'll read it before you decide to GC your own house.
And if you do, I hope your project goes better than mine did.....................(-:
Two things are necessary for important tasks: A plan, and not quite enough time
Saw an article in yesterdays business page about an outfit called U Build IT. You hire them as a consultant while actually GCing the job yourself.
If building a house is like climbing a mountain for an experienced GC, for a one shot owner builder, it's like climbing that mountain blindfolded. Your big problem with subs will be finding out which ones are great, which ones are adequate, and which ones are total idiots and a--holes. Having learned that from years of experience is what makes a good GC worth his weight in crystal chandeliers.
As for saving money, fuggedaboutit. You might save in some areas, but mistakes in others will probably end up costing you more on the bottom line. It's a crap shoot.
The only good reason for doing your own GC work is if you enjoy the learning process. Consider it a hobby, a very expensive hobby. In that case, it only makes sense if you get really deep into the hobby and do as much of the sub work yourself as you can.
BTW, I'm owner-building a fairly large remodel myself, and having lotsa fun.... ;-)
-- J.S.
I did my own house, everything from GC to fianace to pouring concrete to electrical, hvac, plumbing, drywall etc. I had some help in some trade but not more than $1000 labor.
Although it is a bomb shelter. I did not save any money. This is with no labor price except the $1000. I feel since I did not get contractor pricing it cost more. It cost me in material 65K to build a house I can buy on the market for 65K
If I had to do it over would I, In a minute, of course.
Will I ever do it again on another. No, never, are you crazy.
The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"
Have you (and wife?) ever had a home built for you? Some people who have a home built can't wait to get it over with, and swear they will never go throught thatb again...they'll buy a ready-to-move-in home the next time. If that's your experience, then acting as GC will be twice as bad. Before, you only had to make hundreds of decisions and hassel with the contractor...now you are the contractor, you still have to make twice as many decisions, and you have to deal with subs and suppliers.
Do it right, or do it twice.
We are a GC (and also carpenters) but occasionally work with people who act as their own GC's. They pay the subs directly and purchase some of the materials themselves. We usually give them a fixed price for our portion of the work and also charge for any time that we devote to coordinating with the other subs. Since we are around for most of the job, this is fairly easy.
We do not do this arrangement with anybody. The person must have some experience in doing this type of work themselves. It may have only been a cabin or garage but if they have some experience, they will not have unrealistic expectations. They also must be available on a daily basis to make decisions. They will often not have to go to the jobsite but they must be available.
If you have a hard time trusting people, do not be your own GC. A GC is dependent on his subs and suppliers and needs to work hard to help them do their best work. If you do not understand this, you will be miserable.
I'm in mid build as we speak on my house.. Not only am I doing the general contracting, I'm also doing the planning designing building wiring plumbing sweeping up and just about every other thing that needs doing.. I'm doing mine on nights and weekends while I have to hire subs to help me on occasion, (I',m building a timberframe and there are times when I simply can't lift the timber myself.. )
I have spent about two years so far..
My points are this,
one time!
you have no concept of the time demands.. just selecting a sub from the choices will eat up an amazing amount of your time..
costs,,
there is a tendancy when doing it yourself to forget budgets because of all the money that you are saving..
how much will you save?
some however you'll spend some more too! some because you'll make mistakes. and some because you won't really know what to spend for something, and some because you're saving all this money anyway..
If you want to learn and see where your money is going, how about getting a GC to do it for cost plus?
That normally runs cost plus 12%, so, if you figure that you would save that 12% and do it yourself, you need to also know that the suppliers won't give you any discounts.
That alone may already annulate your GC's cost. Not counting all the mistakes, bad work and all that you may run into without knowing any better.
The only time being your own GC makes sense is if you are in that business in some way already, I think.
Rule one.
1... Why let anyone know or assume it's a one shot deal? Even you don't know that for sure. And it's to your advantage to let a sub know that you always have your eyes open for land for future projects. They probably won't think of you as a one shot deal. Network or ask other contractors for advice re: subs. If a builder recommends a sub you use you should let that sub know.
2... I think a lot but more importantly, if its going to be your home so why insert someone between you and the contractors? Many questions and decisions you make would have been made by you anyway. It's a great learning experience if you remember that sometimes everyone can have a bad day including the tradesperson. Avoiding changing anything- more important if there is a GC there .. he'll probably add 15%. Also you may be more able to conduct product research etc. that a GC won't be as inspired to do.
3... Need to be able to deal well with people & be reasonable & it helps to be capable of doing most work yourself. Remember that other imput can be valuable. Need to see long term and understand most delays will end and the finished product is the important goal. Replacing a cheap faucet in two years is easy but trying to remember or justify why you settled for something less in the insulation, foundation or walls might be an ongoing headache.
I never ask for help from family or friends while I'm paying strangers to do the same kind of work. Pay them all.
Dealing with a spouse can be the most work. My wife always has issues with the construction process and sometimes different subs so I keep her away from that. I have parlayed my homes from approx $30K to $700K in 25 years while doing it part time and holding other full time jobs. I enjoy it and have learned more doing that than I would have anywhere else. I never could have afforded to live like I do, have the friends I have or been mortgage free so fast if I wasn't my own GC and done much of the work myself.
Good luck and remember the form & foundation guys are never on time
I think you are exactly right Charlie. I can't imagine someone else making the decisions for me when it comes down to the home that my wife and I are going to live in. It would be to easy to cut corners I think.
Kyzar1 , I think moderate research can put any( almost any ) person in the realm of being their own GC. This place called the internet is probably one of the best. Not to mention that your permit process is stepped anyway to give you the next process of what has to be done.
I am not saying it's going to be easy. I am almost finished with my house which I have been obviously GC'ing since summer of 2003. I am 29 years old and have done a majority of the work myself working a 40 hour week then about 5-6 hours after work each day , then all day saturday and sunday. Needless to say I am always tired.
And I am not the average kid either. I am an journey HVAC mechanic with skills in electrical and plumbing plus my full time hobby is woodworking which places me in different catergory. I took off three weeks from work to frame the house. I did all the gas piping , HVAC of course ,all electrical , low-voltage , cabinets , all painting , finish carpentry and all drainage requirements outside. Plus a ton of little things.
You know what though , what it comes down to the most is the pride of knowing what you took apart in and accomplished. You can't knock it if you have'nt tried.
And oh yeah , one other great thing , the bank appraised my house 130K over what I have into it ,including the land. Sweat equity , you gotta love it. Two more houses and i'll have no mortgage. One more thing to think about.
I always find that a good way to get framers and GC's is to talk to the lumber salesman. And if you worked at a lumber yard you souldn't have a problem with this.
The Lumber salesman sees the work of several framers everyday. He should be able to tell you if they know their stuff. Also they know if the contractors pay their bills or not. They can also get a good contractor to give you the name of other good subs.
Most subs only deal with a few people. They will have a couple GC's that they work for, who use certain electricians, plumbers, etc. While a good lumbersalesman will know far more people than a lot of the subs do.
I just wanted to thank everyone for the solid advice given so far. I'll take all this into consideration as I approach the final decision as to whether or not to GC myself. On one hand, I'd love the opportunity to do take pride in knowing that I completed some of the work myself and save some money while doing so. On the other, I'm not naive enough to think I know all the finer intricacies of house construction. Much thought will have to go into making the decision.
While doing the GC research, I'm also trying to come up with plans for the house. Let me ask another thing, say I find a floorplan that I like except I'd like to make small modifications (ie. moving a non-loadbearing wall over a few feet). Would I have to buy the reproducible set of plans then take them to an architect to make the changes, or is there another less expensive option?
Thanks,
Kory Kyzar
you can buy the reproducibles.. use white out.. or some of the solvents... redo with your changes..
make your changes on the copiesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Would I have to buy the reproducible set of plans then take them to an architect to make the changes, or is there another less expensive option?"
This would depend on your local code situation. In our area, upstate NY, you need an architect/engineer stamped plans for any house over 1500 sq. ft. Most stock plans that you would buy would need to be stamped by a professional licensed in NY. We have a guy who will review plans and run a required energy audit for $200. This is very cheap. It can cost $500 to $1000 elsewhere. If you make significant changes, all bets are off.
good point.. also .. remember that moving walls in plan view.. you should keep your xray vision goggles on so you can see what's happening to the floor above and belowMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Re plans, if you can find a plan set that is very close to what you want, go with it, although you may very possibly need to get a local engineer/arch. to do the structurals for it. If you are going to make many changes at all though, the white-out thing starts getting less praticle so find a template plan in one of those plan books or on one of the internet plan web sites, and take it to a local plan service or arch, and have your own custom plans drawn up as they are familiar what construction techniques are accepted in you area. Also search the BT archives for "house plans) or similar, as this has been discussed several times, and even within the last month or so.
Matt
Edited 1/7/2004 11:25:09 PM ET by DIRISHINME
This is a big question to answer briefly. What does a GC have that you don't? Experience. Tools. Resources. Licence in some areas. Knowledge and familiarity with all phases of construction from site work elevations to kitchen moulding. Established accounts with suppliers. Working relationships with sub-contractors. Ability to make sure there aren't any problems to solve during the process. Ability to solve problems if they do occur and understanding the consequences any one action may have on many others. Familiarity with building codes, OSHA regs and locally accepted building practices. Liability insurance, workers comp. Construction is a step by step process and each one needs the i's dotted and t's crossed as you go. Every step has to be coordinated with each other and planned ahead. Materials and supplies have to be on site when needed. The job needs a smooth and efficient flow. With experienced people this happens automatically, with the inexperienced every step is a chore. I would take a look at how much you make at your regular job. Chances are that you will make more money there than trying to be a GC. I am working with an owner GC right now. He asked everyones opinion on how to do things and got and followed some bad advice. He made a mess of the site work, driveway has a major mud hole, the french door daylight walkout in his basement is his lowest grade so the rain water washes into the cellar. He moved a wall two inches and screwed up the kitchen layout. The stair openings were too small. The interior doors he hung have to be redone. The list goes on and on. Is there a lot of money to be saved? Depends on what your time is worth. I get a 3% discount from some suppliers if I pay by the 10th. That's $3000 on $100,000. You will spend that much on tools and running around. All of your subs will have a profit margin built into their price and that's just business. Shopping for bargains on lighting, carpets and flooring, appliances etc. is probably a better way to save. There will be a big difference in prices between subs you just have to make sure you get apples for apples. You can invest your sweat equity in areas that you are comfortable with. Painting for example is high on labor cost and an area you can save a few thousand by doing yourself. I don't want to sound negative about GCing your own job. If you find good people and have planned well, it can be very rewarding. Over the last 35 yrs. as a builder I have worked with a number of homeowner GCs. My honest experience has shown that most were not capable of going for coffee and getting it right and on time. There have been a couple of exceptions.
Hammer- That is a great ennumeration of what a GC brings to the job.
I've been thinking about this from a slightly different slant. We will be starting to frame a new house on Monday. The foundation and engineered septic system are completed. No slab in the basement until we get heat. I have been at the site less than four hours and I have spent less than sixteen hours figuring a price, compiling material lists, getting permits and stamped plans, meeting with the owner, and thinking about the job. Don't underestimate this last activity. Granted that this is a fairly simple house, but that is all the time it took.
A homeowner would (and should) spend at least five times this much time for the same tasks. The difference is that I know what I am doing. It is not rocket science and the experience of building a house is very rewarding but I have learned something in the twenty years I have been doing this. You will learn quite a few of those things on your first house. I hope the lessons are not too painful. I know I had to pay in cash for a lot of my education.