I met with a customer today about designing and building her kitchen cabinets. Her house is undergoing some very serious structural work including a new foundation, new piers, beams and floor joists. Most of the interior walls have been opened up and the house will need complete rewiring to get rid of the knob and tube wiring. One curtain wall has been removed to expand the kitchen area.
Now for the fun part.
All the work is being done by an unlicensed, illegal immigrant, contractor!! There are no permits for anything and she says that she was told that she only needed one if she was expanding the house.
I told her that she had been seriously mislead and that she was sitting on a time bomb. Sooner or later, an inspector would probably get curious and she may find a Stop Work notice on the door some day and would be in serious doo-doo. She asked me what she should do and I told her I needed to think about it.
So, what would you folks suggest. I’m thinking that she should go to the building department, “confess”, and throw herself on their mercy.
Replies
It's not her place to go to the city and ask for forgiveness. She should tell the contractor that she is witholding all further payments until he produces a permit. And now you need to stay out of it. Getr whatever permits you need for your work, and either take the job or walk.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Thanks guys. The advice so far pretty closely follows what I thought - and suggested to her.
My statements about her contractor were based on what she told me. We first met yesterday (Sunday) and I got to the house before her. As I looked around, I was really surprised at the extent of the work being done (it's basically a complete gut and rebuild) and wondered why she was thinking about kitchen cabinets so early in the game - lol.
When she got there, she gave me the "grand tour" and was telling me all about her plans for the place and began asking for my opinions about what had been done to the foundation and support structure. I told her that if the inspector had signed off on the work, she would be ok. When I mentioned inspections, she got that "deer in the headlights" look so I asked if anyone had pulled permits (I hadn't seen any posted anywhere). That's when she said that no permits had been pulled, and that her contractor was unlicensed, and was (in fact) an illegal immigrant.
That's when I told her that she was playing with fire. The extent of the work is obvious from the street and there's an excellent chance that a city inspector could drive by and get curious. If that happened, she may find the place red tagged and find herself in some serious difficulty. I told her that I thought she could minimize the problems by going to the building department before they came to her.
She agreed in principle, but wasn't sure she would actually do that. She and her boyfriend have known and used this contractor for a long time and he's "almost a member of the family". She doesn't want to do anything that would get him in trouble.
That conversation ended with me telling her that she was walking a tightrope and needed to make some tough decisions. I have both a GC and a PE license and have no intention of putting either at risk by getting further involved in those issues. We spent the next hour discussing what she wants her kitchen to look like.
I've seen many people dance around permitting jobs, but this is the most extensive unpermitted job I've been close to. I posted this to ask how others have handled this situation. This customer is very nice, but incredibly naive and I want to give her the best advice I can.
Usually, it is the homeowner's responsibility to have a permit for any work a municipality requires permits for. Usually, it doesn't matter who applies for it, owner or contrator. If this contractor is almost part of the family, he as well as the boyfriend should be concerned about the owner's best interest.
Someone should inquire at the building department about whether permits are required for such work. No doubt, from your description of the work already done, it should be prettry safe to assume that permits will be required. That same someone should then inquire what needs to be submitted for permit review. With all of that info, the Owner's options are to sit down with he boyfriend, and "almost part of the family" contractor, spell out what the situation is and seek the solution for everyone's best interest. A quiet call to her attorney for some telephone consult is not a bad idea, at least for some initial information on legal options.
If it's the site, trucks, debris, noise is so out in the open, it's a matter of time before the Owner gets a visit from the city.
This could be a true test for a true boyfriend.
Joe -
There's no doubt in my mind that she's walking a tightrope. As I've said, we talked about this other work and she asked for my opinion. Although my "professional" involvement is limited to kitchen and cabinet design work, I want to give her the best advice I can regarding her problems.
She still lives in another town about 40 miles from here so I think that this situation involves a very naive homeowner who doesn't really understand the system - or maybe just doesn't want to. In my opinion, she's letting her loyalty to this "contractor" interfere with her thinking.
I didn't get the impression that her boyfriend had much to do with her using this "contractor". He wasn't there, so I didn't meet him - and maybe never will.
I think she can go to the city, tell the truth, and possibly still avoid getting her unlicensed friend in trouble. Even though she hired this friend as the contractor, his lack of a license makes her the owner/builder, so she can go to the city and say "I have a problem and I'm hoping you can help me out. I am remodeling my house and mistakenly believed that if I wasn't changing the footprint that I didn't need permits. I've already had subcontractors working on it and it is down to the studs. Now that I've spoken to a licensed contractor about some other work I realize my mistake and I'd like to make things right before the work is covered over. Can I please apply for the permit now, while all the structural work is still visible and can be properly inspected?"
Aimless -
That's the approach I've suggested to her.
Perhaps a phone call to a lawyer (right away) before she goes to the municipality. Because her house is already torn up and the contractor presumably has part of her money already she stands to loose a lot if the contractor disappears. A lawyer can counsel on the best way to protect her from harm.
One other thought. Be careful about accusing the contractor of being illegal. If you are assuming so just because of an accent or the small size of the business you could be falsely harming the reputation of him. If you client never verified the business it's not bad advice to her to do so, but be careful not to stray beyond what you know into gossip or slander. Keep it low key and tread lightly.
I don't think "throwing herself on their mercy" is all that big of a deal.
I can't say for certain what your building department would do, I can tell you the one here would want a permit taken out for the work and want their money for that permit. Other then that I doubt your building department is going to do much to the homeowner.
If what you said about the contractor being un-lic. is true, the homeowner is in a bad spot IMO, if she goes out and fires this guy, he may have a decent chunk of her money and she probably won't have much luck getting it back. Then she needs to go our and hire a licenced reputable contractor who is going to more then likely charge a whole hell of a lot more money then the original guy. Not because he's trying to take advantage but running a legit business costs a lot more then cheating the system. Not to mention the particular situation of this job, being half started, I'd be looking for a premium to take it on.
So if she had a budget for the project, as most people do, she is up for a rude awaking when she goes out to find someone to finish the project that is reputable and lic.
How do you know the orginal guy is un licenced and illegal? Is she acting as her own G/C or is this guy supposed to be it?
If she is trying to act as her own general I have zero sympthy, she simply didn't do enough homework.
Edited 11/19/2006 7:07 pm ET by CAGIV
She may well be in a pickle, but it's much better to fess up now rather than later. Later, after the walls are closed back up, she may be required to uncover the framing for a framing inspection.
In some places being red taged for such things means having the electric meter pulled if it isn't fixed in 30 days (or whatever). Many a house have sat vacant because the owner couldn't afford to have the walls opened up and all the crap that didn't meet code fixed.
At least around here, she would have to have an engineer scan the foundation for the required rebar and have the soil tested if the footer isn't sized for the worst case. Expensive to fix.
She definitely needs to fess up to the building department. I've known of a few cases where likeable people have asked the building department for guidance and direction on how to resolve the lack of prior permits and they agreed tp treat anything that's already been rebuilt as existing and start with a clean slate with no penalties.
:-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I agree half way to the others posted. She hired the guy full well knowing that he was/might be illegal with no license. Now, she should let him finish the job as long as he can do it to code. And, if he can, should pay him in full. None of this B.S. about not paying him since he's not licensed. Doesn't sound like he tried to lie about it to her.
As for the permit... absolutely. Just tell that the owner of the property must pull the permit as an owner/builder. Hopefully they won't require enginering(doubt it)
Migraine -
Who said that she wouldn't pay him?? I got the impression from her that he's working pretty cheap, but she doesn't seem to be thinking of stiffing him. Like I said, she thinks of him as "a member of the family" - lol.
Sometimes the thought process doesn't really get put into words to well.
I never ment to insinuate that she wasn't paying him. I appologize for that.
I guess that I was more trying cover any comments from others that might come later. Should have just kept that comment to myself until it was brought.
As a licensed contractor, I have heard too many times that "if he isn't licensed, you don't have to pay him". That is crap, specially when the H.O. already knows this. If the guys does the work correctly, then he should be paid. I know guys that aren't licensed are not. I'd have them work on my house if they lived close enough. If something happened, I'd be stuck with the consequenses.
I made the comment about withoild further payment until he gets a permit. That was beofer the relationship was explained. i was not advocating non-payment for the work, just using the money as a lever to get the permit.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
He can't get a permit because he's not licensed here in Cali.
Migraine -
I completely agree with you. From what I could see, this guy has done a good job so far. I've seen "legit" jobs that didn't look this good - lol.
I think her biggest problem would be with the foundation work. About half of the foundation has been replaced and there is more to do. Apparently, it's been done in sections and she had no idea of how the sections were tied together (rebar, etc) - or how the new foundation was tied to the old. Depending on his mood that day, some inspector might require her to take it out so the connections can be inspected.
I'm trying to give her suggestions that will get her straight with the building department and protect her investment in this house. Even if she gets away with what's happening right now, she may have problems if she ever wants to sell. We have some really nasty laws about disclosing unpermitted work and things can get real ugly in a hurry if a homeowner fails to disclose something they know about.
As a licensed GC in California, how can you in good conscience, support the idea of an unlicensed (much less illegal immigrant) doing this extensive remodel?"In California, anyone who contracts to perform work that is
valued at $500 or more for materials and labor must hold a current, valid license from the Contractors State License Board in the specialty for which he or she is contracting. Unlicensed contractors pose a risk to your financial security because they expose you to significant financial harm in the event of injury or property damage. Few unlicensed contractors have bonding or workers’ compensation insurance."Do ya suppose he knows California Building Code?Do ya suppose he's bonded?Do ya suppose he's carrying workman's comp?What will she do if someone gets injured on this job?If she considers him family, what has she done to sponser his citizenship?Me thinks, his low price is what makes him like family....
how can you in good conscience, support the idea
He's not supporting the idea. Like many of the situations posted here, we are trying to find good practical solutions to non-textbook issues. If the HO wants to continue to use this contractor, then we are trying to give her advice on how to mitigate the problems.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Thanks for the response. That was my point that I guess that I didn't make too well.
It's not necessarily your semantics, and my point might not get through. Some people just don't want to admit that there is a different viewpoint than their own.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
He is not a Contractor in California unless he's licensed.Now if Dave wants to take over as her Contractor...well, it's getting complicated....
A brief update on this situation.
After she had told me about the situation with her "contractor" - but before we started talking about her kitchen - she asked if I would do some of the other work needed on the house. I told her that I wouldn't be interested since there was no way I would put either my GC or PE licenses at risk.
The next day, I talked with a long-time contractor friend about this and he told me that my advice to her (talk to the building department and work out a solution) was her best course of action. She wouldn't escape unscathed, but the outcome would be better than waiting for them to catch her.
Over the last few days, I've sent her a couple of emails and left a phone message, but she hasn't responded. I'm not sure if that's because I told her a bunch of stuff she didn't want to hear - or if she's caught up in the Thanksgiving holiday. I don't plan to chase her. If she wants the kitchen work, I'll do it but will keep my distance from everything else. If she doesn't call back, that's ok too. There are other fish in this pond.
If she were to ask me to "take over" and straighten this out for her, I would probably pass. I'm a small-time, one man, operation and this job needs someone with more resources and experience than I can bring to it. In my engineering days, I fixed a few real "train wrecks", but that was a totally different world. - lol
I believe her conversation with you led to a conversation with the boyfriend and the "contractor" and they all came to the conclusion you were a fly in the ointment.
my first thought was one of oppurtunity for you. y'know, pull the permits and mark everything up 30% just to make it legal.
if you dont hear back from her that only means she is perfectly comfortable continuing the down the same path illegally and would prefer to not know of the consequences. in that case make go ahead and make an anonymous call to the BI
It sounds like you a good job of approaching her with the problems and a very good way to resolve it.
Just to add to the discussion - I have worked LOTS of times on unpermitted jobs. The risks to the customer have been mentioned by earlier posters.
Here in Western WA it's the homeowner's responsibility to make sure there's a permit pulled. Rule of thumb is anything deeper than paint needs a permit, that's the answer you get when you ask at the building department. For practical purposes it's really when you get into anything structural.
But if this gal had a house torn open like described and got busted by the building department, she could then go pull the necessary permits. The penalty is that they double the cost of the permit. Plus, of course, all the retro inspections mentioned earlier, like proving rebar placement and such. Spendy.
Well... I don't always agree with the Ca Contractors License B.S. They don't enforce and they don't make sure the actual contractors are even qualified.
But in general terms/therory, I do. It is just the inherant problems with any governmental regualtions.
As for the other part of the statement... My point was that she already knew and chose that decision, not me. Sounds like she is okay with it.
As for being a GC or not, it doesn't make you qualified to do the work yourself, but only to subcontract out the the areas that you are not qualified in.
Being this, I doubt that all have the qualification to do all trades themself. They still do the minor electrical, plumbing, HVAC modifications, concrete, tile, cabinetry, countertops, roofing, trim with not certification in them
But as others have previously posted, "but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night..."
In most states she can hire an unlicensed contractor if she hires him as her employee and it is her own house. When she hires him as her employee she must have the proper insurance and employee ID number.