Here’s a question for all the architects here who occasionally do commercial work.
Colds-Flu and nasty viruses of all types are spread by hand to hand contact. I heard that the flu virus can live on a cold door handle for more than 24 hours. Does the architecture program not cover the design of washrooms for public health whatsoever?
Why do the washroom doors not open out (if it has to have doors at all) and why are no touch taps not standard equipment in public washrooms? Why is there very little ventilation at all and why is the temperature not 65 degrees rather than the typical 80-as the bacteria grows more effectively over 70degrees?
MHO, most public washrooms will have 500 people touch that door handle daily-that don’t bother to wash their hands after doing their biz.
Ohh, and for the girls, why is it that most commercial washrooms feature similarly sized ladies and mens washrooms? Women require more space and more units. (smaller bladders-and more needs due to menstruation). Every time I go to a movie theater, there is always a line outside the ladies washroom-and none at the mens.
Our brand new hospital in Barrie Ont. (Royal Victoria Hospital), is a fine example. Doors opening in with handles in the washrooms (lotsa sick people too), and old style handle operated taps (have to touch both), and a quarantine room with no ventilation. Show up there because you have a lung infection and you are likely to leave with 2 different ailments. Maybe I seem critical, but this doesn’t bode well for the reputation of architecture when they can’t get common sense down. Worse still, the building is oriented improperly. Main doors are facing west and north west, (prevailing north easterly wind), very few windows to the south-so much for passive solar.
Can anyone explain why this stupidity is standard in architecture?
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Replies
Not an archy, but I'd be willing to wager it's just not thought of. I try to avoid public bathrooms, and of the ones I go in, only one in maybe twenty has no-touch fixtures and proper heat/cool/ventilation.
I also think that decent no-touch fixtures are relatively new (?) in terms of reliability - and they are also quite expensive? The owner/client probably just doesnt want to foot the bill for it, plus you have to run either LV wiring to each fixture, or out fit them with batteries of some kind - another expense and/or maintenance headache.
I wish more places had them - it' s nice to be able to use a public bathroom and not have to touch anything.
Why not ask architects who do nothing BUT public buildings? That would make more sense. Everything you are asking about has to do with the current building codes, not architectural stupidity. There is no requirement that I know of for "no hands" restrooms. If the ADA could get it passed, that's all we would see. It doesn't matter how hands free the rooms are, people with little or no personal hygiene make cleanliness impossible. If the people who use public facilities could bring themselves to be clean, you wouldn't need to say that you avoid them.Also, as was mentioned before, the hands free fixtures are really pricey. You're looking at this from the standpoint of a person coming into the building, not as the building owner. Most buildings don't use passive solar because it takes up floorspace and it's not that easy or cost effective to manage the heat. Much easier to heat/cool and remove the existing air to be conditioned. I agree that every effort should be made to use the free energy that's available, but we aren't the ones paying for these buildings, are we? Running the additional wires isn't the issue, neither is maintaining them. Just more conduit, boxes and labor. I have friends who design public and commercial buildings. It's not that they don't think of it, they build what the client wants. That's their job. Not to preach to the client that using solar or wind power is better, using different site mapping would cut down on drafts(they usually have air locks in cold climates, anyway) and having sterile washrooms is the dream of the public. If they start preaching and telling the client what to do, the client is definitely going somewhere else for his building. I think I can count the people I know who have gotten sick from a washroom on one hand. Most get sick from their kids, who bring it back from school.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Jon, Great White good points.
Highfigh, when it comes to whether or not people get sick from philthy buildings you simply have to ask a doctor. Every winter when we are stuck indoors viral infections are compressed.
When it comes to sanitation not being the archy's responsibility, a thoughtful design will assure ease of cleaning in public applications. "Form follows function" is exactly what we are talking about here.
Stonefever-yes, it is time they add in some of these things to architectural instruction.
Ralph-good point... gotta look after yer soldier...no fun to have a sick soldier, best to wash twice. It's not colds that are the main concern in a public washroom.
Mike, Boss, David D, That's why I asked. I think airports are among the best designed buildings in North America, and that is why I asked if it was just a regional issue I was noticing-a kind of geographically specific lack of attention to detail. Boss, I agree that some of the germ worry may just be paranoia. If you live in a bubble and come out in 5 years, you are likely to be very ill for a while. That said, likely if we can cut down the infection rate, we may be able to reduce the morph rate of all the viruses which would in turn result in fewer ill people. (MHO)
Frankie
"Doors open in so that when you exit you don't smack someone in the face as the door opens out."-What about the people leaving the washroom-that doesn't make sense. A couple of well placed potted plants will achieve a more aesthetic solution-with fewer people ill.
DaveRich
Thanks for the info on your buildings, I wonder if they compared sick days to the national average... that would be interesting.
This Hospital has a huge glass wall East and West, kind of a coffin shaped thing. Orienting or designing with that glass wall facing south would have likely decreased their heating bill 10% overall and made the entire building more comfortable. The only sun they get is blinding late in the day and heads right out the back of the coffer. I was talking passive solar. If you have windows-why not make them work for you. The other issue with west facing windows is leakage and insulative quality. The wall with the greatest heat loss is exposed to the greatest pressure and least insulation. The shape of this building also catches wind, whereas if they oriented it differently the wind would catch less.
Teo, Good points-the clear plumbing might be entertaining in a misanthropic kinda way.
Glatt-EXACTLY. Agree entirely.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
just got back from Virginia.. passed thru two airports..
the new airports seem to be getting it...
no doors in or out.. just a vision -block wall ( maze )...
the only touch was the button on the hot -air hand dryer.. the paper towel yu only touch the paper
the stall doors were the only doors..
and the women's facilities are larger than the men's..
also .. changing tables in both
naturally.. all of these features reuire lots more space.. so that is usually the constraintMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
picked up eldest daughter at the Indy airport last night - same situation there - no touch, except for stall doors and hot air button -
and one I hadn't seen before, a 'family restroom' - sign had a male and female figure holding hands with a child figure - that is where the changing table was - didn't go in to see if there was cabinets full of cosmetics, hair driers setting on the counter, etc, that would make it a true family experience - -
suggested to wife and younger daughter that we had missed a chance at a family bonding experience - they seemed to not be distraught at the loss...
"there's enough for everyone"
To add to Mike's post.
I work in an office complex, with over 500 employees. We installed battery operated fixtures in our restrooms over 3 years ago. We have at least one ADA restroom on each floor with automatic doors (touch buttons). every restroom has the towel dispensers that Mike refered too, except the public access room with a blower. We also use auto soap dispensers, and auto flush urinals and toilets.
The battery operated faucets and flush valves are just now needing battery replacements, so that cost can be spread over at least a two year period. The problem with the faucets is they do not run enough water to flush the waste lines of the soapy water, and we experience a greater number of clogged drains. Urinals we set to flush when they are approached and agian when they are vacant, so we have fewer drain issues there. Toilets got more complaints because they will flush when someone wiggles around in front of the detector. With hidh flush Sloan valves they can have thier butts sprayed. We, however, have fewer stopped up toilets with the auto flush feature.
All of these features were added long after the building was occupied 20+ years ago. Not cheap, but in the interest of employee health and safety.
The solar gain issue you raised can be a non issue with most commercial building. Most are required to bring in a minimum of 10 to 15% outside fresh air, and exhaust a like amount of stale building air (think legionaires disease). Unless the building can get enugh solar gain to more than offset the fresh air intake requirements, most HVAC designes don't consider it.
Dave
That is how the majority of our public facilities are designed now days, especially the schools. I may be an exception, but sanitation is a big issue in the bathroom designs I work on. I'm one of those guys that will carry a paper towel for blocks, looking for a trash can, just so I don't have to touch the door handle of the restroom on the way out.
As to the reason most of the doors swing in - it's because most public restrooms open onto an egress corridor. Code won't allow us to design a clobbering for every the little old granny, heading by the sight-less bathroom door, toward the exit.
As to the reason most of the doors swing in - it's because most public restrooms open onto an egress corridor. Code won't allow us to design a clobbering for every the little old granny, heading by the sight-less bathroom door, toward the exit.
Great point!both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
You wouldn't happen to be the Tony Eeds I shook hands with in the foyer of that historical renovation in downtown Abilene last year would you? Your posts have a ring of familiarity.
If so, that property I talked to you about is still available. You don't mind a wind farm next door do you? :-)>
Yep Kevin it is. I have been meaning to drop you a note. I hope to get my house in Dallas on the market this summer. Need to get out of here before the bubble pops.both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
Just stay away from the hills, or do your homework - The bubble just popped here.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=55347.1
Is that thread behind the wall?Mozilla will not let me in.both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
It's in the tavern. If you don't want to sign on for access, the gist of the story is that the view out the picture windows of that house I just spent the last three years of building is about to be one of the largest wind farms in Texas. That photo I showed you of the land for sale next door is about to have a much different view.
I just figured out that the Tavern had been moved behind the wall yesterday afternoon. Not being a regular here, I had not realized that it was in the works. I guess I need to go ask for access ... funny how it seems that there is one group there and another here.Wind farms are not bad, but I imagine the land values etc. have suffered. How is your place coming along?both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
We're in but there's plenty left to do.
You know, you pose some good questions, but most of these problems go on forever. "Touchless" faucets are expensive and prone to many breakdowns, hence the bottom line wins - price. As far as windows are concerned, I don't think they give a second thought other than the heat gain and the required air conditioning requirements. While we're on the subject of common sense, why, in this land of ice and snow do we still put flat roofs on most buildings? Most the HVAC equipment is on the ground now so it's not like it's needed for installation of this equipment.
A trick when using the lavs - grab a paper towel or tissue, wash your hands, use the towel to turn off the tap and pull the door open. Then toss it in the nearest garbage can. Usually limits exposure to most of those germ contaminated surfaces.
Kevin
Thanks for bringing up the issue.
It seems like only 30% of men wash their hands afterwards, thus 70% don't care. I'd say those archy's are in the 70% group.
Note around the inside of these doors that pull open that there is either paper towels on the floor near where the door is open to it's widest, or a garbage can closeby. I always use a couple of paper towels to pull these doors open. What happens to the paper towels then depends upon whether there is a garbage can or not within tossing distance after.
Frankly, I don't think sanitation issues are part of an architects training, although they should be.
Personally, I like to wash my hands before I unzip and grab. All sorts of things can be transfered and grow where it's dark, warm and moist.
Also use the paper towel, when available, to open the door on the way out.
None of what you just posted is the architect's fault. If you think the majority of architects are designing art, you're sadly mistaken. Their job is to find out what the client's needs and wants are, then design a building. The way it looks(good or bad) is up to the client. If they don't know what looks good, they agree to a design that looks like crap in a lot of cases. Sometimes, the owner lets the archi loose on the design. Whether the room is cleaned properly has absolutely nothing to do with architecture. That's up to the building maintenance department.Environmental issues are definitely in the curriculum. The student may not remember a bit of it after they graduate, but it's there. If the firm where the archi works has everything broken down into departments(architecture, structural, mechanicals, interior design, landscaping, admin, etc), they will base the design on what is possible, based on what the client wants or needs, but no more than that. The exterior cosmetics are sometimes up to the designer, sometimes not. Waste removal is not their job, unless the design calls specifically for it. If it's a one or two person operation and the client goes to them because of reputation or whatever, they may have more latitude when it comes to these concerns. What do you have against architects? You have to realize that most tract housing is not designed by architects. Some of the higher $ stuff is, but not all. I'm not saying that all architecture is good, far from it. I think there is a lot of bad looking building going on. Unfortunately, the way a building looks is not the main concern. "Form follows function".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
What do you have against architects?
Nothing. In fact, I wish I were one. I admire a good architectural job. And I praise those that do good work.
"Form follows function".
Nice point. However, it's debatable.
I for one, believe in a balance of form and function. My wife believes in form over function. Therefore she gets pizzed when I try to re-engineer whatever I'm working on to accommodate both instead of just making it look good.
I feel such a balance creates value.
The form follows function quote is from Ludwig Mies Van der Rohe. Google that name.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Oh yeah, I went to high school with him. He didn't wash his hands either!
Louis Sullivan might challenge you on the origin of that phrase.
I believe you're right. I think van der Rohe said "the devil is in the details".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
No, he said "less is more".
Now who the devil said "the devil is in the details"?
He said "less is more", too. I have seen the other quote directly attributed to him.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Who said "more is not enough"?
I don't know. With my recent confusion over the other quotes, I'm not even sure of my own name now.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Meis van der Rohe is famous for saying "God is in the details". It plays against the old saying " the devil is in the details".
It seems like only 30% of men wash their hands afterwards, thus 70% don't care. I'd say those archy's are in the 70% group.
A Frenchman would wash his hands before going to the bathroom because he thinks it is clean; an Englishman would wash his hands after because he thinks it is dirty; and for some people they don't wash before nor after because they think it is just a part of their body.
"...why is it that most commercial washrooms feature similarly sized ladies and mens washrooms?"
Must be a local thing. Around here, the women typically get much bigger and better located restrooms.
I think a lot of the stuff about germs is mainly paranoia. The worst you're likely to get is a cold.
Doors open in so that when you exit you don't smack someone in the face as the door opens out.
Whenever I have seen a women's washroom be the same size as the men's, it is usually in a bar. Men's lines there are long because there are more men who require draining. Women's lines are long because they require primping and discussion.
Taps - well as mentioned before, it's a money issue. Ya get what ya pay for.
All rooms require ventilation. Quarentine room might require a separate ventilation system and maybe it was not up and running when you visited.
Just some thoughts.
F
Colds-Flu and nasty viruses of all types are spread by hand to hand contact. I heard that the flu virus can live on a cold door handle for more than 24 hours.
Really, I have never got sick from using a public restroom.
Does the architecture program not cover the design of washrooms for public health whatsoever?
Nope, building code covers fixture counts.
Why do the washroom doors not open out (if it has to have doors at all)
Even if they open out, you still have to pull on a door handle to get in. As others have said, mazes are a possibility, but at $125 to as high as $200 psf for airport buildings and such, cost vs. area is always a battle.
and why are no touch taps not standard equipment in public washrooms?
Many do, but they are prone to breakage and vandalism. Additionally they are difficult to retrofit on older style systems because of lack of available power for operation. They can be battery powered, but that requires another employee (and all the benefits) to check the batteries. Oh, never mind cost.
Why is there very little ventilation at all and why is the temperature not 65 degrees rather than the typical 80-as the bacteria grows more effectively over 70degrees?
Check with engineering, that is an operational issue. We are required to provide AC and ventilation.
MHO, most public washrooms will have 500 people touch that door handle daily-that don't bother to wash their hands after doing their biz.
It is easy to quote numbers that are difficult to back up.
Ohh, and for the girls, why is it that most commercial washrooms feature similarly sized ladies and mens washrooms? Women require more space and more units. (smaller bladders-and more needs due to menstruation). Every time I go to a movie theater, there is always a line outside the ladies washroom-and none at the mens.
You obviously frequent older establishments as the ratio was changed 5 years ago for assembly uses following the arrest of a woman at the Astrodome in Houston during a concert in the mid-90's that resulted in Texas changing the ratio in the late '90's. (The above comments apply to America only)
Our brand new hospital in Barrie Ont. (Royal Victoria Hospital), is a fine example. Doors opening in with handles in the washrooms (lotsa sick people too), and old style handle operated taps (have to touch both), and a quarantine room with no ventilation. Show up there because you have a lung infection and you are likely to leave with 2 different ailments.
What part of the above statement is the architects responsibility? I assume that you are aware of the fact that staph infections are rarely found outside of a hospital. Hospitals are breeding grounds for germs. Yuck.
Maybe I seem critical, but this doesn't bode well for the reputation of architecture when they can't get common sense down. Worse still, the building is oriented improperly. Main doors are facing west and north west, (prevailing north easterly wind), very few windows to the south-so much for passive solar.
Again, what part of the above statements are the architects responsibility. Did he select the site? Did he locate the adjacent streets? Did he determine (millions of years ago) the slope of the land? Did he determine his budget? Did he determine the layout/location of the rooms?
Can anyone explain why this stupidity is standard in architecture?
I would be careful with your use of the word stupidity, that could be construed as a direct indictment of many of the above comments in blue.
You give architects credit for power that they do not have. OBVIOUSLY, you have never been involved in any public development or you would realize that architects translate information on to paper. That is all they do, along with balance the millions of lines of code information that impact their bottom line, all the while making by far the lowest percentage of profit of any member of the development team.
The above words in black are the opinion of the author of this post and do not reflect the views of the owners of this website and are based upon 40 years of involvement in commercial architecture and construction.
both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
Tony, thanks for your input. Am I right to assume you are an Architect?
When I said 500 people a day I thought that was a low enough number to be acceptable. Never dreamed anyone would debate that, surprised you are.
That movie theater is 3 years old, thanks for the info that Texas changed the count. Maybe we will catch up.
"Hospitals are breeding grounds for germs. Yuck.", exactly. That's why I expected better from the architect in that case.
I believe it is all part of the Architect's responsibility to educate the people who make the decisions. That's what we as contractors do. If budget does not allow it... why take the job?
Is it low bid mentality that costs us production across the country due to illness from philthy buildings?
Thanks for your response Tony... Gives us a view of how it all happens.GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
I've noticed more automatic features in bathrooms recently.The Sam's Club,Circuit City,and Best Buy we did last year all had automatic flush toilets and paper towel dispensors.The Sam's had auto faucets.None of the restaurants we worked on had them though.I'm sure the fixtures cost more and the customer has to determine that value.I'll bet the toilets with the 9v battery aren't that much more money.The ones with a box in the wall and transformer above the ceiling are kind of a pain but mostly because no one co-ordinates the details in advance.They aren't on the prints,the plumber doesn't say anything until the walls are roughed,and then the plumber's office doesn't have the right cut sheets on them.The plumber sure has a stinky mess when the battery runs out on the cheaper ones though.
I worked on several remodeling projects at our local hospital a few years back.In the meetings I always felt sorry for the architect because the hospital's representatives were always so goofy.The tech people would want everything overbuilt to pure gold standards.The design people wanted every impractical ethereal concept they could imagine.The budget guy wanted to say no to everything.The building operations people,who should have had the most input,occupied the very bottom rung of the ladder.After one meeting about a reception area design,I was shaking my head at what they had come up with, and the architect told me "If I tried to come up with the ten most f###ed up ways to build this,I couldn't have beat their idea".
On another project the hospital wanted to get more into the Homeland Security mode of thinking.They wanted to have a suite in the emergency department that could be used for biological decontamination and isolation.It have to have positive ventilation,air always entering the room.When the HVAC contractor wanted to know where the air was to be exhausted,the hospital team decided the easiest and most economical place would be the employee's smoking lounge on the other side of the wall.
When you look at some screwy detail of a building don't overlook the owner's input when blaming the architect.
Edited 3/14/2005 2:42 pm ET by IBEW Barry
Edited 3/14/2005 5:42 pm ET by IBEW Barry
"most economical place would be the employee's smoking lounge on the other side of the wall." -HAD ME ROLLING...
I've only had the discomfort of sitting in on one of those meetings-at Princess Margaret Hospital when the Site Super couldn't make it many years ago. You are right about the power struggles... That explains why hospitals are so dysfunctional- might be a hazzard of the business.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
I worked on several remodeling projects at our local hospital a few years back.In the meetings I always felt sorry for the architect because the hospital's representatives were always so goofy.The tech people would want everything overbuilt to pure gold standards.The design people wanted every impratical ethereal concept they could imagine.The budget guy wanted to say no to everything.
So true!!!
The building operations people,who should have had the most input,occupied the very bottom rung of the ladder.After one meeting about a reception area design,I was shaking my head at what they had come up with, and the architect told me "If I tried to come up with the ten most f###ed up ways to build this,I couldn't have beat their idea".
I once designed a power plant addition to a OSB plant. Don't ask me why, but the suits wanted the boiler orientated a specific direction. Poor "Jack" (said so on his shirt) just sat there. I told them they could face the boiler any way they wanted, but unless they left it like I had it they would have to tear down a wall when it had to be opened up to clean the combustion chamber and roll the fire tubes. By then, Jack was perked up and listening. He turned to the suits and said that he didn't know why I knew what I knew, but that I was right and that was what he had been saying for months.
Oh, the reason I knew? Because I cleaned boilers and rolled tubes while working 3rd shift at a Styrofoam cup plant while finishing my last semester of school.both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
"I worked on several remodeling projects at our local hospital a few years back.In the meetings I always felt sorry for the architect because the hospital's representatives were always so goofy.The tech people would want everything overbuilt to pure gold standards.The design people wanted every impratical ethereal concept they could imagine.The budget guy wanted to say no to everything.The building operations people,who should have had the most input,occupied the very bottom rung of the ladder.After one meeting about a reception area design,I was shaking my head at what they had come up with, and the architect told me "If I tried to come up with the ten most f###ed up ways to build this,I couldn't have beat their idea"." That's pretty good. :-) I've been in more than a few of those meetings myself, it happens to us engineers as well.There's an old line that goes, "Find out what the customer wants, and then give them plenty of it."
Tony, thanks for your input. Am I right to assume you are an Architect?
Yes, 19 years and counting, 22 years as a general contractor and subcontractor prior to that.
When I said 500 people a day I thought that was a low enough number to be acceptable. Never dreamed anyone would debate that, surprised you are.
Not debating the number, but I am tired of hearing numbers bandied about and turned to facts based solely on the fact that they are not challenged. It happens every day. 500 is a huge number to assume for many sets of toilets. Toilets are designed for specific occupancy numbers.
As an example:
Office buildings are often populated at 1 person per 100 SF of useable area. Assuming 20000 SF of useable area, that equates to 200 people, divided by 2 (men and women) equals 100 people each sex or 5 visits per person per day. Highly unlikely.
Public restrooms in hospitals are even less likely as most rooms (all private and semi-private) have their own toilet room.
That movie theater is 3 years old, thanks for the info that Texas changed the count. Maybe we will catch up.
Maybe someday, it took an arrest and half a dozen lawsuits here. The International Building Code (IBC) has addressed the issue, but the first version was not published until 2000. I am not sure how far along Canada is in adopting the IBC.
"Hospitals are breeding grounds for germs. Yuck.", exactly. That's why I expected better from the architect in that case.
Lawrence, staph infection does not exist because of design deficiencies, rather for lack of cleanliness. A friend of a friend is on 24 hour call to "repair" OR tables here in Dallas. To hear him say it, they break because of all the gunk that is washed into the workings while "cleaning" up after an operation. Architects can specify all the hospital tip hinges, hospital stops on frames, wall hung fixtures and cove base in the world and it will not make up for the lack of cleanliness of the thousands or so of folks that inhabit many hospitals at any given moment.
I believe it is all part of the Architect's responsibility to educate the people who make the decisions. That's what we as contractors do. If budget does not allow it... why take the job?
Many people would like to believe that it is the architects responsibility to educate people who make the decisions. On projects of the size of a hospital, many "efficiency" experts (economic and steps/distance) have touched the plan layouts before the architect even touches the plans. Nevermind that there is often a contractor stirring the poo as well. What is the quote about too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the soup?
Is it low bid mentality that costs us production across the country due to illness from philthy buildings?
Not necessarily true, low bid doesn't often doesn't matter on projects of this scale anymore. They are more often that not design-build and the contractors are in the drivers seat. I am wrapping up construction on a Chevrolet dealership that is design-build and I told the owner to consider traditional design-bid-build next time. At the time we were watching the contractor disassemble part of the building because of a screwup during the pre-engineered building design (by subcontractor to the contractor).
Even using your movie theater example, many (if not most) are based upon prototypical design. The layout is based upon squeezing the most profit out of the cash register (building) and that does not include wasting any building area that can be eliminated. Cookie cutter reuse of existing documents and making only site adapt changes has removed even more of the architects influence. Prototypical design can result in numerous copies under construction in various parts of the country before a mistake in layout even surfaces. Oftentimes these mistakes are not even noticed until the unit is open and operating.
Thanks for your response Tony... Gives us a view of how it all happens.
I hope so, because there is a clear tone of blame in many of the comments in many of the posts. As much as we would like otherwise, we are not like Howard Roark. In fact very few of us even come close to that degree of power except when designing our own residences.
A sign over my desk at a large firm that I worked for here in Dallas before going into business for myself said ... Speed, Quality, Price ... Pick any two. Not exactly new, but more people believe in selecting speed and price and allowing quality to suffer as a result.
In one 9 month period I designed a 9 story and 6 story office building "after" all the pretty pictures were complete. We were under a deadline to have the buildings completed and ready to occupy within 18 months of design start. I was lucky to have one part time intern helping with the design documentation. It took almost 4 months for the owners to decide on which shade of pink granite to put in the architectural concrete mix on the building. Even the contractor was screaming by that point, because the ONLY thing that did not change was the move-in date. The owner's rep would never accept any responsibility for any decision affected schedule and it was always the architects "over designing" things and contractors "gouging" him that caused all the problems.
Development Representatives (I hesitate to call them construction managers as they often are incompetent at best) have made it a fine art to divide the construction community into camps thereby leaving themselves with any of the power.
That is one of the main reasons I left corporate architecture and started my own firm. My projects are smaller and I can stay very involved in their construction. The definition of architecture in a completed structure. If is is not built it is simply lines on paper. In that CAD only allows us to draw bad faster .... well, you get the picture.both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
Oh, if only architects did design everything the way they wanted...
Of course we would have all sorts of different problems to talk about, like why the plumbing is all done in clear acrylic pipes so you can see the "functional beauty".
Anyway, there are not any more cold and flu viruses in a washroom than anywhere else in a building, in fact probably even less. The washroom gets disinfected regularly, but elevators and offices only get dusted and vacuumed, hardly virus killers. We are just squeamish about the "potty".
Many a washroom has been designed for more room in the Lady's. When budget time comes, however, the question "what is the minimum amount of unleasable space we can get away with" comes up and if there is no law about relative size for genders in the books, the room gets chopped.
When there is evidence that handle-less technology and spacious restrooms will provide profit to the venture capitalists who risk their hard earned money, there will be a lot less handles and no restroom lines. If your money was on the line, you might think the same too. Personally, I would have all unisex bathrooms. It's the most efficient and fair, what's the problem?
As for design that doesn't account for solar and other site considerations, that is a different story, because a lot of money can be saved for the client in the long run with accountable design. That is when an architect is not fulfilling their duty to the client, or the integrity of their profession.
Edited 3/14/2005 9:15 am ET by teo
I'm surprised at all the people who are saying they know that they aren't getting sick from contact to germs found in the washroom. Last I checked, germs were invisible to the naked eye. You don't know where you pick them up. When you get sick, you don't know how you got sick. (Sure in some cases, you may know that the kid who sneezed in you face got you sick, but you know what I mean.)
Bathrooms are a haven for germs, but the buttons on the fax machine have more germs than any other location in an office building. Elevator buttons are a close second. They are never washed, and everyone touches them.
Edited 3/14/2005 1:13 pm ET by Glatt
In response to Glatt
Bathrooms are a haven for germs, but the buttons on the fax machine have more germs than any other location in an office building. Elevator buttons are a close second. They are never washed, and everyone touches them.
Interesting email just landed in my inbox.
How contractors are battling infection during hospital construction
By Robert Cassidy, Editor-in-Chief
Reprinted courtesy of Building Design & Construction, 02/01/2005.
Every year, about 90,000 patients in U.S. hospitals contract nosocomial infections — they get sick (or sicker) from something they caught in the hospital. Two or three thousand of them die as a result.
read the rest at http://www.firstsourceonl.com/magazine/articles/bdc0502constructinfect.asp
both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
Edited 3/14/2005 3:54 pm ET by Tony
I dunno, but ya should see the looks I get for washing my hands before I bring out Mr.Happy..
A little kid asked me why, I told him, "well, Ya never know who touched that door last, don't want no germs on the parts"
He ran to the sink, still peeing..and washed his hands..about killed me laffing so hard........
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
Here is some more stupidity. Our relativelly new Silver City Cinema in nearby Sudbury cost in the neighbourhood of 8 million. Yet when I brought my 4 year old twin girls to see a show I discovered nobody had the foresight to make sure there was at least one family bathroom. Even when I worked in provincial parks, one of the slowest moving organizations in the province, we put in family bathrooms.
Have a good day
Cliffy
100% of public restrooms in Japan are hands-free (except for stall doors). It's been this way for quite some time.
Entry doors are frequently offset in some manner to block the view, but sometimes they are not--anybody who really wants to peer inside can at least see the backs of guys lined up against the rows of urinals. Women generally tend to avert their eyes from this ghastly sight. More recently, architects have been getting better about putting in screens at entrances.
Generally, the electric eyes in the urinals and faucets tend to be made by either Toto or Inax. I would say that they give five nines reliability, or better. Japanese urinals univerally have narrow shelves above them where one can set a briefcase or bag, rather than setting it on the floor.
If the hand-free bathroom is starting to spread in the West, this may be the result of exposure of leading Western architects to Japanese practices, since so many of them end up working on major Japanese projects.
They're built to meet code. Period.