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I need to get an aluminum tube for a “fireman Pole” for a play structure we are building for a private school. This is a volunteer project but it is a pretty savvy group and we want to make sure we do it right. <!—-> <!—->
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We have a 7′ deep hole 16″+ wide that we would like to sink a 20 to 21 foot pole to act as a fireman’s pole. That said only 14 feet would be above grade and the rest would be sunk in the concrete. The kids would access the pole from a hole in the decking about 7 feet above and the pole will not be anchored at the top, hence the deep anchoring of the pole. I have a source for the materials but I don’t know the right spec for what size tube and grade of aluminum. I was thinking 3 to 4 inch 5/16th wall but I have no idea on the type of aluminum. I could be off on the size as well. That is why I am seeking the advice of someone more knowledgeable. <!—-> <!—->
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The age is Elementary kids and someone brought up a concern about having the pole coated, as the aluminum will sliver off. We could do it with steel but there is the concern of rusting and stainless would be to costly.
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Thanks in advance for any input.
Replies
aluminium is too brittle and won't deal with lateral forces well...
go stainless - available as rigid conduit or a brass bar rail.....
if ya still want AL that come sch40 rigid or sch 80 food service.. there is some sch 120 out there..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 4/18/2006 9:22 pm by IMERC
> aluminium is too brittle and won't deal with lateral forces well...This will come as a surprise to a few hundred thousand sailboat owners.But one problem with aluminum is that it "rubs off" on clothing. Probably brass or stainless is what you need. Of course, you can cut costs by using a fairly thinwalled pipe and putting a heavier steel pipe inside, or it can be "grouted" with a cement mixture (and maybe rebar) to make it stronger.Be certain to NOT use chrome plated, as chrome plating can peel off in large chunks, and could cause serious injury.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
This will come as a surprise to a few hundred thousand sailboat owners.
WTB pipe and sail boat masts are two different animals in thickness, shape, temper and host of other tidbits...
section a mast and compare...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
But your statement was unqualified. Given a tube of the right composition of aluminum in the right thickness, etc, there's no doubt that it could stand up to this duty. The cross-section is only relevant when loads are unevenly distributed (or when you want the mast faired and want a slot for the boom end and sail luff, the main reason for the odd-shaped mast profile).
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
OK and never consider the extrusion and the profile that's engineered into a mast....
so let him go get a sail boat mast...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The cross-section is only relevant when loads are unevenly distributed
Well, that's kind of in the description from OP, too. My old Thistle had a lovely aluminum spar of consdierable strength & utility--but I'd not want a 8 y/o to be flinging themselves bodily at the top third, either . . .
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"This will come as a surprise to a few hundred thousand sailboat owners.
WTB pipe and sail boat masts are two different animals in thickness, shape, temper and host of other tidbits...
section a mast and compare..."
Yep. And heavily stayed too. The pole the OP wants will not be supported anywhere but at the bottom.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
> Yep. And heavily stayed too.Which would come as a surprise to 180 thousand Laser sailors.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
thousand Laser sailors
Yeah, but, by definition, those guys are all nuts, anyway <g>
You're out on a Texas lake, and t-storm brews up. People come in off the lake--except for the Laser folk, they get out the wet suits and practice capsizing . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
you are turning this into some kind of reteric...(sp?)
keep it apples to apples if you will...
the mast on a sail boat isn't fixed to a inmoveable object... the boat moves in sync with the mast....
I had an Islander 54 for more than a few years...
it's my conviction that sail boats make excellent reef starters....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Looks like we will have to go stainless, I would like to avoid sleeving it as then we would have to use seamless tube which I think would add to the expense. Thoughts on size?
we would have to use seamless tube
Which is a likely need since you are "in public" with what's close to an "attractive nusiance." You'll have kiddo's flinging themselves willy-nilly at this pole (and the children's care an concern will be directly inversely proportional to any watching parent--that's kids).
So, I'm thinking you not only need a seamless surface, you need one with no burrs, edges, or anything of the like (but that may be my jaded from contact with public agencies attitude, too).
I want to remember that the old fire station poles were brass or bronze (or an alloy thereof) and that they were 'expected' to be self-polished by having fire crew in heavy treated (canvas & denim) turn-out gear coming down the poles. I'm pretty sure you're not going to be able to issue some sort of carhart pole suit (or get to put Brasso on it with a tyke within, either <g>).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I was referring to seamless on the inside of the tube, I am pretty sure it is all seamless on the outside but to sleeve it tight would require seamless on the inside and that gets expensive. Take a look at the inside of a think wall steel tube and you will find a burr on the inside.
Would love to do brass but that would get cut off and stolen for the scrap value and the cost I would think would be much more. It is outside in an urban area.
What about plastic? Sleeved over a steel pipe, of course (though I'm sure there are composite platics that could do well by themselves).More generally, you should probably pay an engineer to work through the numbers -- 150lb "kid" running and throwing himself at the pipe, two such kids grabbbing hold of the pipe and rocking it back and forth, etc. This is the only way to get a reasonable handle on the strength required.Strength requirements would be GREATLY reduced if an arch of sorts were run up to the top of the pole to support it at the top.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I know but it is a "Pirate ship" play structure so the asthetics would be all off. Very rarely am I allow to do something that is easy. ;-)
If you made the top "arch" look like mast stays (ta-dah!) then it would fit right in. Add flags and such, and a little dummy crow's nest on the top.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Good idea but I got nothing solid to tie them into, Just the railing. It has been a work in progress but starting to come together. There is also going to be a flag pole mast towards the front with a yard arm. For that we are just buying a flag pole.
So, you have an elevated structure that will look like a pirate ship with a mast that will double as a firemans' pole centered in a hole located at approximately 7 feet above ground level.
Said hole having to be of a diameter to contain the pole and allow sufficient clearance all the way around so that a young body may jump onto this pole and slide to the ground below.
With the demise of the ground hugging jungle gym, rarely taller in the center than 6', due mainly to injuries cause by falling through the bars to the ground below, you are confident that a sudden stop after a drop from 7', because a kid couldn't control his descent or perhaps just stepped into the hole while horsing around, would not cause similar problems?
Can you say lawsuit?
There is a foot or more of rubber mulch at the bottom, the hole is railed around in all but one place and the real drop is only 6 feet or so. We have buy off from everyone.
BTW, when I was a kid the Jungle Gym was 8 feet high and you fell into 2" of pea gravel. I did it a few times and things are okay. I mostly function as a useful member of society four or five days out of seven.
Remember jumping off large things when you were a kid, I sure do, the larger the better. This is at least controlled and given a safe landing.
Let's not take all the fun out of being a kid. All those prefab play structures have a similar pole with a similar height.
We can wrap everyone in bubble wrap before hand.
well, I have to put in my 2 cents...As a contractor, and a disgruntled firefighter, I have to say that ours is brass. Stainless would be my choice. I hope the kids like sore crotches!!!!! I'll take the stairs!
<<I want to remember that the old fire station poles were brass or bronze (or an alloy thereof) and that they were 'expected' to be self-polished by having fire crew in heavy treated (canvas & denim) turn-out gear coming down the poles. I'm pretty sure you're not going to be able to issue some sort of carhart pole suit (or get to put Brasso on it with a tyke within, either <g>).>>Close enough -- the poles are brass, they are kept very clean (both incidentally and intentionally with polish and rags), and you are expected to not touch the pole with your hands. Touching the pole leaves a sticky spot in the slide that is decidedly uncomfortable when you hit it. A rookie will be soundly cussed out for touching the pole -- you lean into it, wrap your arm around it, and catch it with your legs as you jump. Then get out of the way quick at the bottom before someone lands on you.It was some years ago (okay, decades ago <g>) that I was a nozzle jockey, and I'm with Millsie -- I can get down the stairs and be on the truck while the fat-azzes are all still lined up at the pole hole.Anyway, as long as whatever this guy installs is safe, it doesn't matter what he uses because it's going to be dirty in no time and stay that way.The best politics is right action. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
Thoughts on size? 3 inch 1/4 wall do it? it will be to cumbersome to fill with concrete and I think we will cap it anyway.
IIRC AL and CC don't cohabitate well....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I bought a nice piece of stainless tube once at scrap price -- it was 4" od by about 15' long, heavy wall, about 3/8 or 1/2 inch iirc. Found it at a big (not mom and pop) hydraulic repair shop, it was the rod out of a BIG cylinder from some industrial equipment. It was bent, about 1" bowed out in the middle of the 15' length so they had replaced.
3" pipe is the ID... I would think that would make for an overal OD that a kid would have trouble grabbing a hold of...
Take a kid into ome place that sells pipe.. be it metal or plastic and see what would be comfortable for the kid to handle.. WTB it'll be 2" or 2.5 " at the max... stand a section of pipe on end and see how well and easily the kid can hang on.. sliding is secondary.. I believe hanging on is primary..
now consider a steel pipe of your chosen dia in a min of SCH80 or 120 if you can find it and sleeve it with SS or a brass tube... no need to coat it .. that would wear off in no time anyways... and all that kid action would keep SS or brass clean and shiney...
consider changing your design so that you can incorperate a stay the top of this pole.. put the thought of 6 of these kids hitting that pole all at once or even a dozen in rapid sucession in the back of yer mind and let it help you come up with something that works...
seamless sleeves are to be had....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks, I am familiar with Steel tube and don't really know pipe that well and tube is measured by OD with a wall thickness so I guess that is what I know and why I was talking 3" Pipe I guess is different in that measurement then tube. Been doing more research and If we go pipe rather then tube it will be probably 2.5" Schedule 80S, SS pipe
OD = 2.875
wall = .276
weight = 7.66lbs/ft.
avail in 20' lengths Or If I go tube it will be 3" OD with a wall thickness of 5/16" I have about 10 feet left of a 2x2 OD 3/16' wall square tube in the garage from a project and I can jump on that over a span and it won't move. Stainless may be a bit weaker but not that much. I can't put brass in there as it is in Chicago and somebody sees brass and it is gone in seconds for scrap. As for the strength, the access to the pole is really tight and only allows for one kid to get to it at a time unless they are at the base. It is railed off so as to allow only one small point of departure. If a bunch of kids are going to be at it, it will only be at the base with 6 feet of concrete holding it tight. I really would like to thank everyone for the replies. I got a ton of great information and I was directed away from a poor selection of materials in the aluminum for some really good reasons that I had not thought of or did not know. What a great resource.
Edited 4/19/2006 1:50 am by rjgogo
Sounds like a flagpole or a mast. Welders industrial suppliers.
I was thinking stainless too, but a composite would be better, AL would need regular paint unless you want all the kiddoes going hoime with black stripes 4" wide down the front
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Forgot about that aspect, That explaines the coating issue. They just had the reason wrong. Don't want black stripes.
Looks like we will have to bite the bullet and go stainless.
If I was you I'd forget the pole all together. The first overweight kid, or kid with weak upper arm strength, that falls from the top of that pole and cracks his/her head open is going to have a parent looking for the first deep pocket to make a claim against. For that reason alone, I suggest strongly that you forget this particular portion of good will. Just suppose the worst happens and some kid wraps their arms around that pole, falls and breaks their neck, similar to Christopher Reeve, and is paralyzed for life. How much do you think the parents are going to be willing to forgive just because you were trying to be a good guy. Zero!!! They're going to attempt to get every penny you and all your children will ever make to make their pain go away.
A bunch of parents, dads mostly, installed an outdoor jungle gym at a playground on the other side of the town where I live. Took them two whole weekend to install and about a year later some kid took a header off the swing and broke his jaw and almost severed his right ear off. Parent got a lawyer, and the lawyer got a playground engineer to testify that there should have been more sand below the swing or some other fall arresting device. The parents who installed the gym damn near lost their homes and the arguments that ensued almost broke up a couple of marriages. It just isn't worth it...let the kid run on flat ground but make sure they don't trip over anything that you may have left in their way. They won't have has much fun but then you don't have to worry about parents attempting to recover their medical costs from your checking account.
Thank you for the comments I have a million dollar liability policy so I think I am okay. did I not specify that the plan was approved by the school?We have been on this for 8 weekends so far. This is not thrown together. There are pros giving their time on this job site. good ones too. They just don't know tensile strength of steel and aluminum. hence the questionEdit to add, I see something wrong with a sanitized playground. It just seems wrong. There is risk in life... Yeah, lets just make everything homogenized and perfectly safe with no risk of injury, give the kids flat ground and nothing more, no play structure, god forbid they could fall. Flat ground is the way to go, no way of harm for anyone. Where does the creative aspect come.? Where does imagination develop?That said, this has been made a safe place to be for children. that is our first priority, A place where they can play and run and explore. Do you have any children? Have you seen what they need and require to develop? Or are you just ...
Edited 4/19/2006 1:54 am by rjgogo
This is not entirely tongue-in-cheek: sounds like you need a stripper pole.did<!---->Cure Diabetes - Death Valley 2006!<!---->
I think the alloy/ tempering you are looking for would be either 5052/t6 or 6062/t6. Both are used for sailboat masts as well as the hulls and structural parts of boats. See U.S. navy minesweepers. aluminum in its pure state has a real problem with oxidation, thats the black stuff that rubs off some aluminum. The listed alloys will not have this problem,be standing there long after the house rots down. I'd talk to a supplier of metals- get them to hook you up with an aluminum supplier they use to get information. Mention your're worried about cracking where the pole leaves the concrete... Jim Devier
Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense, but I found a couple of suppliers for the stainless and I think that is the way we are going to go now.
Cool! I don't see any reason stainless wouldn't work. Know that "stainless steel" is also made in many differing alloys, with varying degrees of corrosion resistance and ability to absorb shock loading. (think the 150 lb. kid and the flying leap, if you build it they WILL come). Jim Devier
How big are these kids? I'd think carefully about the 3-4 inch thing. If you want kids to be able to use it, 2 inch is probably the max you want to go.
Looks like we are leaning to the 2.5 inch stainless tube or pipe, have not decided which as of yet. One of the other parents working on it is an Architect and I have a call into him to have him consult with one of thier structural engineers to see if our sizing is on track now that I am much more informed on materials. For those interested in cost, the tube is aobut $600 and pipe is $40 less.
I see a lot of folks hanging from some pretty thin walled basket ball posts so I think we should be good but better save then sorry.
Thanks for all the good input.