My house was built in the mid 60’s and has the aluminum wiring. I have replaced MOST of the wall switches and outlets using CO/ALR devices. My question concerns GFCI plugs in the bath, kitchen counters, and exterior. Are you sparky’s out there confident in pigtailing to copper leaders with the purple wirenut–cheapest method–or should I take out a loan and hire out an electrician for all new wiring? There’s a lot of intangibles here–safety, re-sale value, initial expense, building codes, etc.
Any advice is good advice.
“Roger Staubach for President”
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There was a new style connector promoted here a couple of months back -- a grease-filled plastic block with screw terminals. Looked good to me.
The connectors I was talking about are "AlumiConn", sold by AlCopStore.com.They're basically terminal strips (like a small piece of breaker panel neutral bus) in a plastic shell. The contact areas are pre-filled with grease.UL listed for Al-Cu connections.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
according to a report within the AlumiConn Mfrs. site, the little terminal blocks have only been on the market for about a year and no field results or determinations will be available until this coming September the report further states that the "purple" wire-nut..
is starting to report failures after three years on the market, there are two pictures of failed Twister ¯ connections that show the product to be IMO useless for pigtailing to copper and back up some of the assertions within the report some of the things that Ideal did or did not do to get it UL listed, eg:
UL accepted Ideals test results rather than perform their own testing , and
the Al wire that was used for the testing was not the same "old technology" wire that would be shoved into the wire-nut in most homes...
Ideal also forgets to mention that the wire MUST be cleaned prior to installing a wire-nut
and.... that wire-nut was not intended for the current marketed use .....a glance at Ideals site still has them selling it as a solution to this problem... once HOs get their hands on these new things , there will most likely be even more problems than there are now you can't make up a connection in 27 seconds and think it's gonna last 20 years.
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I think both the purple wire nut and the gel filled thing are a temporary patch, because the old stuff just had too many quirks for the typical HO to become proficient at finding, in fact you could make matters worse simply fooling around with it.. for starters,
it does NOT like being flexed..trying to fix them could cause them to break .
I could use pliers to break the wire and you would never see any visible insulation damage..
I recall having no power in brand new wiring because the stuff had shrunk inside a wire nut somewhere....
..since you are not that familiar with working with the old wiring ,
I would suggest that you have an electrician rewire the house and just forget about trying to repair every single splice or termination in your house with the "cheapest method". that old stuff just isn't worth the peace of mind..perhaps you can talk to your insurance about it..that is up to you .
what ever you decide to do , the work or repairs should be inspected ..
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, wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
i have been thinking about this and I need to rephrase my remarks about getting an electrician..make sure the contractor is familiar with aluminum wire and it's problems before you make a determination , should you decide to hire someone, because there are only TWO ways to fix things permanently ..
a complete rewire, which any good shop can do !or finding a contractor certified to repair your wiring with the COPALUM SYSTEM...this looks to be costly, but less than the former idea.
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I'll second hiring a pro-sparky to come out and make any mods for you.
Disclaimer: I'm not a pro, but I've done just about everything you can residentially with my house's system, including changing out the service panel.
There is a growing concern over AL wiring in homes, and when DW and I were shopping it was an immediate deal killer. We walked away from several we liked solely because it had AL wiring.
IMNSHO, the "cheaper" solution with AL wiring is invariably the "wrong" solution. I wouldn't go with the wire nuts as you may end up having to replace them later when you go to sell and the buyer insists on a better bond between the two wires.
Glen
The funny thing is that where I'm at, you get more $$ for Al than Cu at the scrapyard...
Our temp trailer (that we've been in for almost 3 years now) is mostly Al wiring. We had an issue once at an outlet, but it turned out to be due to the fact that the previous owner had used an oversized breaker. I knew the guy & he had done quite a bit of rehab on the thing.
He hired a pro for all the electrical work and the guy didn't derate for Al - he used 20A breakers on #12 (which included the kitchen circuits).
After one of the circuits went dead I traced it back to an outlet & the connection was just cooked. It was at that point I discovered the Al wiring. I went around & inspected all the circuits. Any that looked suspicious, I redid w/ the purple wire nuts. I replaced all the 20A breakers w/ 15's & haven't had a problem since.
We just can make toast & coffee at the same time since the breaker will trip - better than a fire though. Anyway - we should only have to put up with it for another month.
Lord willing we'll be done with our house by then. I'm trying to get the AC going - air handlers in the attic - I should have done this a month ago since it's probably 110* at least up there right now.
IMHO, not de-rating for AL is asking for a fire. And your normal usage scenario is a good example as to why. Both the coffee maker & the toaster are high current appliances, which is exactly where problems creep in with AL.But I'll just as quickly get off my soap box here before I rightfully get flamed. ;-)It sounds like the purple wire nuts were a good choice for you due to the temporary nature of your situation and the immediate need to prevent a fire.Good luck with the AC air handlers. Living in Tucson quickly taught me to schedule attic work to outside the summer months. And if you absolutely had to go up there during the summer then you always did it as early in the morning as possible. Of course, it can 110 in Tucson without being in the attic, so there's a little extra incentive."But it's a dry heat". Really.Glen
At one time the original approved repair was using wirenuts. The wirenuts had a coil spring to keep it tight. The wirenut had a gray goop put in it to prevent oxidation.
Aluminum failed because the metal slowly creeps or flows, so aluminum connection always has to be retighten. Also aluminum rusts, the rust is white and causes bad electrical collections. I think the gray anti-oxidation compund is required by code on aluminum.
doorboy,
I basicly agree with maddog3. You pretty much have to go through every connection in the house to be sure they are properly made (i.e. remake them properly), use co/al compatible devices where possible, and properly made cu/al pig tails where no such device is available (see below). Any place you need a 20 A. circuit you're probably going to have to abandon the Al and run copper. Make sure you know what code is in effect in your area, and that you know how to apply it, as wells as what permits/inspections are required. This is for your protection, since if there is a fire, your insurance company may look very closely at any wiring you've done.
if you're intent on doing it yourself, I suggest you read the literature the CPSC (US Consumer Product Safety Commission) has put out relating to AL wiring. Make sure you are totally acquainted with what you are up against. You can find the documents on their web site, but the web site below has a nicely organized version:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/alreduce.htm
The upshot is that the purple wirenuts should be considered for short term emergency repair only. This is partly (but only partly) due to the fact that the grade of Al used for home wiring in the '70s is inferior to that used for the UL certification of the wirenuts.
The recommended connection method between Cu & Al is the Amp COPALUM connector, which requires a not only the connector, but a special crimping tool, and an understanding of the proper technique for making these connections. I believe this method is within reach of anyone who is willing to put in the research and spring for the equipment. Also make sure you understand the proper technique for Al-Al connections, and use a non-flammable anti-oxidant (which would seem to go without saying, but for the fact that they aren't all non-flammable).
i own a house with alum wiring,don't like it but for the price of a rewire i gotta live with it. so i understand when you read these post about rewire the house you feel a little overwhelm with the thought of a gfci costing 10k!!!!!
what i did was replace the breaker in the box with a gfi.breaker the breaker will accept al/cu plus i get a little added protection on the rest of the circuit. i have thought about replacing the rest with arc fault with the thought that it would catch a problem if there was one someday. if i had to make a splice i would check into these splice blocks someone mentioned earlier they look like a great idea for getting to copper. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Do you mean AFCI? I doubt that a GFCI would prevent problems that occur w/ Al house wiring since the issue usually isn't a ground fault.
Most often the problem (even when properly sized - unlike the trailer in my previous post) is that the small diameter Al is subject to breaking at or near connections (in the breaker panel, at oulets, switches, etc) resulting in high resistance loose connection. An AFCI should trip in those cases.
However, I don't think an AFCI would even protect it in the event of the wire being partially broken (or thinned in an area where it was bent back & forth a couple of times). Here you'd have no arcing since it's a constant connection, but the wire is now undersized & subject to overheatting.
IMO, (if this were my permanent residence), I'd go w/ the purple Al/Cu approved connectors (so that I'm less worried about the connection at the device getting bent or broken) and install AFCI protection for each Al circuit. Just remember that #12 Al maxes out @ 15A & #10 Al maxes out at 20A.
AFCI's are expensive, but far less than rewiring your whole house.
If your remodling & the walls are open, that's a different story. I'd pull copper in that case.
Edited 6/27/2007 9:03 pm ET by Soultrain
The current AFCI's only detect parallel arcing, not series arcing.AFCI's also have a 30 ma GFCI feature. The purpose is to detect leakage currents caused by falling insulation (that is typically caused by heat).A GFCI trips at 5 ma for human safety..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
> Do you mean AFCI? I doubt that a GFCI would prevent problems that
> occur w/ Al house wiring since the issue usually isn't a ground
> fault.The OP was asking about the bath and kitchen outlets, which must be GFCI protected. Using a GFCI breaker that's certified for use with aluminum wiring would certainly take care of his problem.George Patterson
makes sense. thanks
well i'm talking about both,using a gfi breaker that is approved for al wire to protect anything that needs a gfi,such as bath,kitchen and garage,. but have also considerd using arc fault breakers to protect agaginst arcing. now with this post i see some guys are telling me it wouldn't pick up a arc unless it was arcing across the circuit.
a gfi will still do what it's intended for ,but now i question the arc fault, glad i haven't spent 50.00 a breaker for the fun of it!larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
"some guys are telling me it wouldn't pick up a arc unless it was arcing across the circuit"I'm not sure that that's true. As I recall the literature on the subject, AFCI's trip open on a characteristic noise or wave-form pattern - in English I took that to mean that the electronics in the breaker looks for the hash on the line that an arc (any arc) would generate and pops the breaker if it sees such.Look up AFCI's and see if that's not the case. But, the problem with al wiring is not necessarily that it sparks. The impression that I get is that the real danger stems from the fact (?) that it creates high resistance junctions that act like little stoves - they cook the surrounding stuff (wood, insulation) until it's tender dry and then heats it just a little more until it catches fire.IF that's the case, I don't see how an AFCI would help.Mike D
i don't know much on the subject but as a general dumdazz,what i understand of the problem with alum. wiring is it expands and contracts at a much greater rate than copper.
where this causes the problems is at connection's like twist connectors and the screws on the plug in/ switches. on the screws the alum expands and contracts over the years till the screw is loose around the wire,resitance starts and cretaes more heat which makes the connection looser,then a little arcing starts creating more heat and pretty soon gets so hot if something combustable is in the area you have a fire. i don't think that the length of the wire is affected,just at the connection.
anybody want to confirm my dumbazz status??????????? larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
all of that and the oxidation of the exposed wire will not conduct.
unlike copper.I wrote earlier that the stuff "shrinks" or works loose the day you would work on it, and most of us would simply tighten the crap outt of it the second time, and that was wrong too.tthe slightest nick could cause it to break
if you accidently grounded a hot ....it just vaporized. pulling #10 solid was another fun day then you had to try to terminate it on the device....
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"AFCI's trip open on a characteristic noise or wave-form pattern - "That is true. but the signature that they look for is are ones that spike up to 50 amps (IIRC) which you only get from parallel arcs.If you use the advanced search you find that this has been discusssed several times in the last year with links to sources.However, the 2008 NEC is requiring Combo AFCI's. Those are suppose to detect both series and parrallel arcs. I have heard that some of those types are available now. But the last time I checked on CH and Sq D's web site the did not show them..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for the clarification.
Mike D
I hate to be like this, but the house behind me in Phoenix was wired with aluminum, and went up with a roar one night. Killed the folk's mother who was visiting with them at the time, and the rest of the family barely made it out alive.
The fire department said that the cause was a receptacle that had failed at the al-cu interface.
I would re-wire the darn house with copper.
Mike D
I value and appreciate everyone's input on this. I now know enough to call an electrician out to the house and evaluate the whole house.
Thanks again for your opinions.
"Roger Staubach for President"
I went through the same thing a few years ago. I used this method:http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/pl2p12.htm
In addition to all the concerns mentioned above, you also have to be very careful about nicking the wire when stripping the insulation. Even a relatively small nick can cause the wire to crack; usually right at the insulation where you might not notice it. I never got comfortable with it though. I ultimately replaced all the aluminum and became quite good at opening walls and doing drywall repair in the process.
One problem is that any wirenut-based scheme places extreme stress on the conductors. Further, significant wire length is required to use wirenuts, and that excess wire must then be pressed back into the box, adding to the stress.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin