Well, I am an accountant “by trade” and I am considering building my own 2900sqft home. I will do everything except the foundation, electric service panel install, furnace ductwork, the plumbing supply and septic rough-in’s. And ofcoarse the drywall. I have built cabins, barns, outbuildings, family rooms, garages, kitchen add ons and too many pieces of furniture to count in a previous life.
However, I am nervous about taking the leap. My style is If I do not know the code for a partial area….I look it up and always get it right. I do not cheat. I always over build.
I know I am nuts but the cost savings cannot be beat. Just for reference what does material cost usually run per sqft. I know there many variables by using modest materials I am coming up around $25 per sqft. Is this close?
Since moving quickly is very very important and I will be selling my 1870’s house that has been completely re-done, is there any way to finish just the first floor get the CO then finish the 2nd floor? What is the least that has to be done to move in? The new house will be a 2 story plus Victorian style house, so it really cannot be built in pieces.
Thanks inadvance for the comments.
Replies
Are you crazy??...... Yes
I promise you will be bald before you are done, from pulling your hair out. Hire a GC and just do a few things. Sorry to say, but this sounds like a recipe for diaster. But what the hello, I've done crazier things
If you put aprox $25 of materials in each sq ft.....
yes...your numbers pan out.
And by all means......rush the project. Set a deadline and fully expect no delays.
The pro's only delay things to ....uh.....make more money......somehow?
You've never seen that Dream House series on HGTV...have ya?
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
BH,
You don't need separate C.o's. Why do you ask about that? Around here when a C.O expires you just pay a fee to renew it. Around here you can do that for a period of up to five years.its cheaper to pay a renewel fee then to get your taxes reacessed. At least it was in my case. They dont reacess your taxes until you get your C.O.
I don't believe (depends on your locale I suppose,maybe) you need a C.O to move into a completed part. You might also look into the rental of temporary living structuresthey drop on your site. In my area those things are kind of costly. Theyre not mobile homes but rather a wooden temporary house like those offices you see on commercial sites.
As long as you do your homework and find reliable subs theres no reason on earth why you can't do this job if in fact you know what you say you do. Get the framing done and roof on (Dried in) and youre fairly safe at that point. You haven't mentioned where this house you want to build is. What are the cold months? Does it get cold or are you in Florida or a fact similar? If it gets cold then you'll need all the electrical, insul, plumbing and heat and drywall in to get you through the winter. All the rest you can do as time goes on but if it takes too long and you will be living in total chaos for a long period of time it may take a toll on your marrige if you are in fact married. I'm not kidding! Takes a toll on "many" marriages. Youre in for quite a project for a semi newbie but if youre good at planning and are being realistic then rock on brother. Take pictures to post. You may want to hire a framing crew just to get the sticks all up. You do the sheathing and windows and the rest. This will seriously speed things up.
HAve fun and if you need advice you know where to come.
Be realistic (nah)
Namaste'
Andy
"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I thought that you could not move in until you obtained a CO and was assessed for taxes? Can you "move-in" to just the 1st floor then finish the 2nd floor after you are moved in?
Bhackford, Getting a C.O. varies from town to town. Check with your building inspector. I moved into my house with a 90 day temporary C.O. Temporary because some details not completed like deck railings, driveway, etc. After that I got a C.O. for the first floor only with no time specified for completing the second floor. It's worthwhile to take the time to develop a positive relationship with the building inspector. Good Luck.Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
BH
You have to check with your building dept. Its different every where.
a"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
depends entirely on where you are..
I'm living without a CO but then I don't have a loan officer to satisfy or whatever..
Why not also do the foundation, electric service panel install, furnace ductwork, the plumbing supply and septic rough-in's yourself also.
Not a joke, some of that is where the real savings are. Heck, wife and I did first one 100% ourselves when we were in our 20's, even drew the plans.
If you plan ahead 4-5 years and buy all your fixtures, etc. on closeouts (e.g. Moen faucets for $5 when Home Base closed, like new simplex combination door locks for $1 surplus, 50 cent/gallon mismixed paint, etc, etc.) , and keep an eye out for surplus and salvage lumber, you can easily be lower than $10 sq ft finished including carpet and all finish work even.
Where we are (King Co. WA) , if we built another house for ourselves, the permits would cost us more than the materials for the house (land not included).
No but living in it is a bit of a stretch.
I started in April 2000 to build a cottage 1800 sqft. It took May to get a hole and Mscl driveway stuff put up. June for foundation (poured) Then gross framing took til the snow flew as we only worked it on weekends and substantial vacation time 2-3 weeks.
This was using all my friends to come out for cameo appearances and the labor of my wife and 4 sons. (one was a loaner for a year.)
In fact it was October late before I got the windows installed. By that point I had the following contracted:
Excavating, Foundation work, pouring the floors in the basement, Rough plumbing, and had a contractor shingle the roof of the building.
That was 8 months work roughly. Now figure I have a 2 hour commute to get there, and this is Northern Wisconsin so it gets colder than a Mother in law's Kiss from Oct to April.
Interior framing took up the remaining winter months as did rough wiring, and sealing the cracks.
The Next spring was Cedar Split shakes 30 Square plus all over the exterior walls. The Shakes were the longest project taking over 4 months. I used over 20,000 nails installing them. Fascia and Soffits took a couple weeks to a month.
Interior insulating was a 2 month job, as was drywall installation. I am still in the throws of Drywall finishing as well as putting down Tile in a bathroom in order to get some nice place to take a shower.
Estimates are out the window unless you are a mercinary with materials. There is always something nicer for just a bit more that tends to skew the original estimate.
I'm the last guy to discourage you. Truthfully. Go for it and enjoy it. The amount of things you plan to contract sound fine to me and they will speed you up. I originally planned to hand off the drywall but money got the best of me. As for the roofing. That was a bargain. I put up the rafters and sheeting but doing a nice job on that was best left in someone's hands. Besides a 16/12 pitch would be long and drawn out without the right tools.
I'm not a novice either, however life interferes with our plans. Kids football practices, Games, Family reunions, and untold other stuff screws up the schedule. Do yourself a favor and plan that not much will go to plan unless you are a insular loner with no life.
Don't fight it, do that Zen thing and go with the flow.
As for the dollars.. My facts and estimates put it to 72$ a square foot. That is for the full monte. I kept track of everything from nails, to caulk, tools bought & rented, to the original framing expense of staying in the 35 buck a night hotel.
I know this place is over the top. The list of features is endless. You can do it cheaper, but you can't just pull a number out of your dupa. Crunch numbers by figuring out the framing cost, Then materials, etc.
Etc. is a big number. That is the adhesive and grout for the tile, the tools and the cutter rental.
Edited 1/7/2003 12:28:47 AM ET by Booch
Bhackford,
You are way off on that 25 $ a square foot. 45 to 55 is more realistic and may be even more as I don't know where you live.
Mark
Pro
And in my neck of the woods its double that.
Personally I'd make a material list and get some ballpark numbers from the subs to get a better idea of what it will cost. Sq ft prices are pretty worthless if you ask me.
ugh
Namaste
Andy"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
100% agreed. I live in northeastern OH which is one of the more reasonable areas to build(in terms of cost). I could see that your area would be more, in fact I'm surprised it's only double. Personally I get the feeling that Bhackford is biting off more than he can chew, though I wish him luck.
Mark
You are a professional by trade . Dont forget we are too. Be respectful of this work by your own works in your main field.
3000 sg ft , with garage and porches at least. Pretty nice pad sense you are a white collar. Are you borrowing the money? If you are I hope you have a relationship with all subs. You are fixing to find out why we are worth our money.
Its done all the time , you arent the first and wont be the last . Just post back the truth when you get done and we will answer your questions all the way through. Fair deal?
Specified reading ;" Spec House From Hell," by Boss Hog . You wont find it in print yet , but its in the search feature here in Breaktime .
Tim Mooney
"""You are fixing to find out why we are worth our money. """
Way to go Tim!! What will the house be worth to the trained eye? I've worked on some of these.
BH: My advice is this: understand there are things worth more than money. But, if it's research you want, research you'll get. Life is too long for things like this.
Sure why not.
It is sure to be an adventure. Educational too. New skills or a new appreciation of the building trades. Either way it's all good. Keep us posted how it goes. If you can, post pictures of the projects progress and plans. Good luck with it.
The Spec House from Hell thread that Tim mentioned is required reading for any newbies wanting to build a new house.
Everybody else has covered the rest pretty well.
A really hard laugh is like sex—one of the ultimate diversions of existence. [Jerry Seinfeld]
Your an accountant so I'll give it to you straight. Since your subbing half of the job, you stand to save maybe 10% doing it yourself. Of course you will lose twice that in non-competitive material costs and subcontractors, don't forget additional loan interest (if your project drags out), not to mention, you will stay at the back of the line for deliveries from any supply house who deals w/ contractors.
I'll give you an example re: the money. I bought an oven last week, I paid $380. To you, the same oven costs $490. That's 22%. You can expect the entire job to go that way. By the way, don't forget to put a price tag on your own time and aggravation.
There is a reason I don't do my own taxes and audits, and there is a reason you should hire a contractor.
Happy Savings
Edited 1/7/2003 8:51:03 AM ET by WAHD
Go for it only if you can devote your attention full time..... or you will have materials from the site stolen while you are not there and because it was delivered before it could all be used.... How about the extra liability insurance when someone comes on the property and slips and sues..... If you want to act as the GC, you will really need to know how to schedule your subs and how to find them when you want them... also the substitute sub when the one you thought you had is no longer available... You might think of trying to sit down with the local president of the home builders association and talk it over. While he/she might certainly be a representative of the home builder, they will most probably give you some good and usable advice. Whoever said you would be bald at the end of your experience was almost correct, the real prediction is half way through... BTW, did anyone mention divorce !! Maybe you can find a good GC in your area who is willing to work closely with you if you pay the subs directly or through an escrow account and the GC works on a cost plus or fee basis.
Good luck, Ken
Hi,
We're living that nightm...I mean dream right now! LOL! Seriously, it does sometime feel like a nightmare and other days like a dream come true. Our house is spectacular and waaaay beyond the scope of what we could afford to pay otherwise. But will it be worth it? We are 18 months into the construction and we actually hired someone to do the framing, the log package, and the roof on the main part of the house. We helped with the garage roof. We live in a very expensive area (Colorado) and since it is a log home, so our costs are more like $110 sq ft. We are doing a substantial amount of work ourselves.
Oh, one thing you should most certainly do is find a good lumberyard and have them give you a take-off on your plans. That will help you determine if your costs are reasonable or not.
We are living in the basement. We had hoped to get a temporary CO for that, but the local building inspector quit right at the wrong time and the new one is a hard a$$. That combined with some misinformation means that we are living there "illegally" . Talk to your local officials to find out their rules on these things.
We hired someone to do our foundation, but the guy, despite recommendations from friends, turned out to be a total hack. We fired him and did it ourselves. That sucked, but you have to be prepared to do that sort of thing sometimes if you are on your own. The guy we hired to put up the logs and roof and our structural engineer have been wonderful. They help us work out things and give us advise on how to finish stuff. Without them, it would get pretty tough.
The thing people say about divorce is really true. Homebuilding taxes your relationship in new ways. It is incredibly stressful and sometimes you just want someone to blame. It takes a lot of restraint to not say things under stress that you will later regret. Your spouse needs to be 100% on board.
If we survive, I'll let you all know. Sometimes it seems like we're not gonna make it, and that is a scary feeling. I've never "failed" at anything in my life, so I plan to fight like heck to make it all workout. Tenacity is most definitly the first requirement for DIY homebuilding! :-)
If you have a bad memory, I say go for it.
That way you can forget peaceful evenings, a nagging wife, and pressure only from 9-5. You can forget that you laid in bed most nights wondering what you forgot to estimate for/order/check stock & delivery on/supervise the installation of etc, etc, etc
I helped a friend do a whole house (took two years), and it almost cost him a good woman. Keep your eye on what's important in your life. A penny saved is not worth the copper it's made of if you are miserable, lonely, and have no-one to share your new home with.
Personally, I do lots of remodeling at home. New bath, kitchen, den, windows etc, but I don't think I would want to do a whole house........then again.....I've never had a reason to hire an accountant. He might be able to do my taxes perfectly, but I do them good enough, and for free to boot. :) couldn't resist that one.
Good luck!
BHACKFORD,
I hope you take all of the above advice seriously. No way are you going to build your house for $25/sq ft. Even if you did every bit of labor yourself. Whatever the difference, you won't be "saving" any money at all. You will be earning it.
When you go to work now, the weather is a minor inconvenience. When you build and work out in it, it will become an obsession. Because you will have so much riding on it, especially with a limited work schedule. Two rainy weekends in a row could translate into three weeks of delays to your schedule.
Remember: Keep your eyes wide open to the realities being presented to you here!
Not trying to scare you, and I sincerely wish you ggod luck should you decide to go ahead with it!
John
I agree with many of comments. However, I am not a complete nerd accountant who is afraid to sweat, get muddy, not wear a tie, get bit by bats (had the shots), get a nail in the foot, etc. Please do not hold my Wall Street experiences against me.
My current house is in the northeast and had no central heating system, no electric past the 1st floor, no insulation, a wet basement, two 1920's bathrooms, 4 gas leaks, many broken windows, no exterior storage, a leaking roof, many bee hives, two crumbling chimneys and many other smaller problems, but the price was right! These have all been fixed, all mechanicals re-done completely (200 amp service, PVC drain pipe, supply plumbing, furnace, phone wiring) plus the roofs, siding, 45+ windows, etc. I have also built a 24by30 gambrel barn (3 floors) for under $2per sqft and built a 20by30 workshop at my house.
This has taken 5 years of continued projects. I know and am often told to that I should not continue to be an accountant but it is hard for me to cut the cord, not get a check and do what I really love.
For a variety of reasons, I have to move 10 miles north.
The choices for housing in a somewhat tight market are: 1 buy someone else's old house and spend five years redoing it, including the demo work or 2 build a new house yourself and save on demo or 3 hit it big and pay someone else to build a house or 4 get a second job to build a new house, the second job would be choice between more accounting work, auto repair or remodeling.
To me choice #2 is really the best option.
PS: I can take 1 month off of work as long it is not during tax season.
Edited 1/7/2003 9:06:54 PM ET by BHACKFORD
Thoughts from an insomniac DIY homebuilder...research, paperwork, support and clean-up division of the two-person team.
A month is NOT enough. Crunch those numbers and see if you can take six months to a year off work. Really. Buy a used travel trailer and live on-site if you have to.
If there's an SO in your life, make sure you have complete support. I'd add complete understanding, but there's no way you can understand what you're getting yourself into until you're standing in up to your armpits.
Random thoughts to consider- check out Structural Insulated Panels. If I had to do it over again (and it looks that way), SIPs would be the way I'd go. Yep, it'll change your sf cost, but time and energy efficiency need to be factored in, too. Don't discount doing the plumbing yourself- DH found PEX to be reasonably uncomplicated. Find a bank/credit union that's willing to loan you the money even though you have no experience. They're going to have to believe that you can build your house for the $$ that you say you can.
Good luck....
Working solo, you will do things that we would'nt. What is the back-up plan if you should slip and break an arm or wrist on the first day of framing, or say just a simple sprained ankle that keeps you hobbled for a week or so?
Read this for fun.
http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=20860.1
KK
Edited 1/7/2003 6:37:09 PM ET by kkearney
It's not about the money. Do it if and only if you love the actual work itself. If you love to swing a hammer, sweat pipe fittings, and pull wire in addition to pushing a pencil, then go for it. If you enjoy cutting blocks that fit square and snug, that's your "profit", not the money.
If you want to think about the money, take the amount a professional charges for a job, subtract materials, and divide by the number of hours it would take you to do that job. If that number isn't smaller than the hourly rate you make at accounting, look until you find a mistake. ;-)
-- J.S.
I've paid an accountant one to three thousand a year to take care of some work for me like taxes and advice.
I'd say that over the long haul, he has saved me more than he has cost me.
Apply that fact to building your house.
If you are coming up with a Victorian house for 25/ft in materials cost, I have to ask how you came up with your list of materials. The accountants mind is very preciuse so i fdon't want to argue with you but there is a lot of waste in building, and you probably have no idea where some materials are needed. Fifty is only a guess without seeing plans or knowing local conditions.
On the plus side, numbers is a skill that most contractors only learn after we have lost a fortune or two. You already know something about numbers if you learn to apply that skill to materials, men, time, weather, and the great uinknown. Learning could cost you though.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I'm not picking any arguments and I know some people who are ingenious in trading, scavenging, and making do. I don't doubt it.
But herein, I'm giving realistic advice to someone who is asking for it. If he doesn't want to spend five years cutting and milling his own lumber and haunting auctions and sales, I doubt he can build a livable, Victorian for anything less than fourty and I think fifty is more realistic for just materials and some occasional subs.
Mine was about 25 in '96 and I still have a lot of rough unfinished stuff. Victorian accoutrements are expensive.
Excellence is its own reward!
"spend five years cutting and milling his own lumber and haunting auctions and sales"
Great line Piffin, I need to remember that one -- Hey, that's my recreation! Pulling nails from old pallets sure beats jogging for exercise.
The $2 sq ft barn is a good start by Bhackford, I see no reason he couldn't pull off < $25 sq ft even without the 5 year lead time.
Almost unbelievable savings are possible with Piffins' 5 year planning cycle, which is what was involved for my first 100% built house, 2 pix for examples follow, taking a clue from Bhackford's lead in posting his barn pix.
The 40 foot deck (4'deep" on the 'housefront' pix cost about 15 cents per sq ft (mostly for nails and polyurethane), salvaged 3X14 beams 20 ft long were free, 4ft 2x4s for decking itself were all from old pallets, as were 4x4 posts, etc.
2nd pix (re:-cutting and milling) is of the 16" dia to 30" dia logs used for 2nd floor beams, these came off clearing the road into where the house was built.
There are actually some people who do plan 5 years ahead.
BTW, when one does get costs under $10 sq ft, there is no need to involve a bank, you can do it pay as you go.
Bhackford, also see FHB Nov 1990 "Great moments - 'A ten year roof", for shortcuts to avoid. The cabin in that article was <$1 sq ft.
Hey Luka, you need to chime in here about what is possible on a VERY limited budget!
Personally,
I thought Keith had some better lines..
Excellence is its own reward!
I do appreciate all the sobering advice and I am asking the question because I am smart enough to know I am stepping off a big cliff.
On the other hand, if any of you asked a group of accountants if you could do taxes on the side, I am not sure the respones would be very different.
As far as reality goes, most of you could do the work to a level that is legal. Although it would be painful reading the IRS regs. And basically, that seems to be the consensus here with my situation. I can build the home but most likely it will be painful. I knew that before the post, but I wanted to hear the opinions.
I am still unsure what am going to do, but I will probably read these posts many more times before I decide. Thanks for the opinions.
Well, if you don't like the concensus of advice, and build anyway,
Don't quit asking questions!
I't's why some of us are here. ( I just learned not to try speaking for everybody, LOL).
Excellence is its own reward!
I think that if you feel you can pull it off....go for it. Like piff said... post back updates, no one will give you hell, I think everyone just wants to make sure that you know EXACTLY what you are getting into.
Does it really have to be all or none. Personally, I would have the framing and the outside done by pros :siding, windows ets, and the roof on. Then I would take my sweet time doing everything on the interior. Once enclosed, the site would be safe (for the tools and supplies), dry, and able to store materials until you can use them. The schedule would be what ever you want, and nothing would be as time critical as when the bldg is exposed. Got extra help one weekend? Run wires instead of water lines. I think this would be the best approach.
Also, I think piff is right about the $25/sf. ESPECIALLY IN THE NE. Budget higher (like $45.00/sf). If by chance (or miracle) you have money left over after construction, just do a baloon payment on the mortgage with it.Never a problem, just an opportunity to create a solution... :~}
My only other suggestion before you decide is to:
Beat your head about 8 or 10 times with a hammer and notice that when you stop, it still hurts. See how long it hurts....
Basically, you will have spent 10 seconds or so hitting yourself and about a week or more getting over it. Now extrapolate to building a house.
Ken in Savannah
After reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion, that after a few years of hanging out here, that I don't know any of you, or could predict any response!
That or you guys are the BEST at smiling and holding your tongues as you watch your accountant wonder onto the train tracks at rush hour. I'm getting the sense, that some of you, like I , feel that your accountant ain't getting you your fair share, and are only too eager to see some human debris.
A month off, is that to get it under roof(framed) no experienced crew?
I don't doubt your skills as a carpenter.....but what if it rains that month?
Do you have access to a meth lab, or have you been hanging out in one too long?
Do the rest of you remodel bathrooms for a living, and just pass out advice from your magazine and TV experiences?
Foreclosures have been climbing for the last 3 years, that's on saleable realestate, and your bank is going to loan money to an accountant to build his own AND hold down his day job. (okay, I'm starting to see WHY foreclosures are so far up, they'll loan money too ANYONE)
I build them for a living, and have a large crew, and we do everything we can, and that means everything a carpenter can and SHOULD know how to do. I'm seeing those cost you quote, and am thinking about beating the help out of my accountant!
YOU GUYS CRACK ME UP!
Who made this post up, you knuckleheads!
keith, he should go fer it... our first house, $27,000 ... 1200 sf ... what's that ? $22/ sf
i remember... my girlfriend ( now my wife for the last 30 years ) escorted a trip to Ireland.. two weeks.. told her i'd have the fireplace built by the time she got back.. well.. i had the hearth anyways...
and two years later we moved in...
haven't really improved my speed much since then either
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I always wondered who Keith C was. Post some good stuff sometimes.Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
It's January - when does tax time begin?
I think I'm gonna do taxes and accounting work for a really big company - a multimillion dollar company. I've done my own taxes for the last 18 years, I took 2 accounting course in college and got B's, and my mother is a bookkeeper for the county and my sister is getting her degree in accouting. I think I can do it so I can.
Never mind the fact that I'm getting in way over my head and I'm certainly underqualified and I'll be under a ton of pressure - financially, physically, mentally - throw in a diaagreement with either/or spouse,co-worker,boss, family member, in-laws - throw in a bit of bad timing, little or no sleep, the commuting, inspector problems, illness -Oh yeah I'm going to be doing this in addition to my day job which is not related to what I'm doing at all - I'm a contractor during the week a small 2 man show but I'm sure I can do as good a job accounting as any other qualified accountant. I've done my own taxes for 18 years and it cost me $0 per year in bookeeping and accounting costs. That beats $2 per foot!
Just giving you the business - I which you the best of luck. You might be able to pull it off and keep your sanity, stranger things have happened.
Edited 1/7/2003 10:45:38 PM ET by mickus123
LOL
" it cost me $0 per year in bookeeping"
What kind of file do you keep your boo's in?.
Excellence is its own reward!
The files my mother borrows from her county job.
I'm an astronomer...about 18 months into building my 2800 sq ft home 1000' off the road back in the woods. Alone. You mentioned friends? Hmmm, where have mine all gone? LOL
I'm finishing the rock, hanging the T&G, installing the boiler, etc. at this point. Wanted to move in before school started...then Thanksgiving, HAD to be done before T-day...now I have just given up on a move in date! Bank says I'll be done in June, '03.
I have a VERY flexible schedule...so I could frame all day and then work after dark for example. Sleep, who needs that anyways?
Money...banks all laughed at me...so I spent $65K on credit cards to build my shell. Then I received my $120K construction/mortgage loan...paid off the cards...and now I'm building them up again. Look around, less interest than the bank for short periods! I'll take a second draw sometime to pay 'em off...
The work...I love it. I find it relaxing...except for the "problems". Like the kitchen countertops, like the sheetrock help that did everything I said NOT to do. And wait until you have your head burried in R-38 fiberglass!
Weekends? What are they? Free time? You mean my price for construction? I haven't went to bed before midnight, hell 2AM, or had more than 5 days "off" in over a year.
Am I a typical DIYer? How many astronomers do you know? LOL
All in all, I estimate about $55 a sq. ft...and this will be a nice place. Corian, radiant heat, oversized windows, 10' ceilings, 25' cathedral, blah blah blah for about $55/sq ft. I've paid maybe about $10K in labor...the rest materials alone.
Sorry for the jumping about, I was up last night until 4am working on the house...by generator because the power was out...and slept for about 4 hours last night...now I'm at work trying to design this damned custom electronics until 4AM! LOL
So, YES, you can build it yourself. But I don't think you can do it much cheaper than I have if you "overbuild" and don't cut corners or use cheap stuff. And I'd be VERY worried about being in a hurry. I watched a neighbor build a place, about 2000 sq. ft. in about 8 months or so. He had lots of buddies who worked for free, folks in the trade. I don't....
Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. I stand inside my big custom trapezoid windows looking outside into the snow covered woods and can't believe I actually built this damned place! I did it! Not the dream house, but what I want that I can afford. People told me don't, hell, my mother offered to give me money if I DIDN'T try it alone! And I had NO experience. Read alot, asked folks here a lot, thought alot and worked, ALL THE TIME.
I'm worried about your schedule...your estimate...not your ability to do it. I wouldn't worry much about obtaining materials...I was able to get a 15% discount rate working with the same lumber yard for must of my framing materials.
There are a few things I'd change...a few things that a very good professional could do better...but by and large, I'm amazed actually. I've had one builder on site and told him to rip anything he could see. And besides complaining about my overbuilding of things, he was impressed.
Schedule...budget...lifestyle. Think hard on these things.
How much do you think you can accomplish in a month of vacation?
I was AMAZED at how long things take...working alone, learning as I go. I to those folks who work 14 hour days all summer long...my hats off to you. I'm 33...and after 10 hours, I get REALLY slow.
Bravo.(cheers clap clap) Always like to hear a good report like that. Never say die.Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
I took five months off and worked fourteen hour days x seven to get my house up and closed in - about 2600 sf.
Then I worked part time on it after going back to building for a customer for another seven months to get moved in, totalling fourteen hour days.
Then I kept working on it part time after moving in on a regular basis for another six months, getting it to the point where the bamk said it was finished enough for permanent financing.
The I let myself hit the wall.
I'm getting ready for a second wind..
Excellence is its own reward!
And how old are you now or is it how old do you feel?Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
That was about five years ago and I felt 60 when I finished up.
I'm 52 or something like that now and feel 55
I guess I'm catching up with ,myself LOL.
Excellence is its own reward!
> I'm 52 or something like that now and feel 55
> I guess I'm catching up with ,myself LOL
I'm 55 now, and feel 75. I have to work a full day in the office on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to rest up from the work I do on the house on Tuesday, Thursday, and weekends. ;-)
-- J.S.
Would you believe I built this for under $2 per ft!
Is there a foundation and a cement floor? Electric and plumbing in there? It IS hard to believe you did that for under $2 a sq ft. Did you need to have plans drawn up and filed? Fees? Rental equiptment for anything?
Be curious
Namaste
Andy
"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Is that 20x24 or so? So that's 1000 swq ft or so?
That's $2000.
What are the shingles? The sheating? Trusses/rafters? Framing? Subfloor and joists upstairs?
Doors? Rough cut for board and batten?
That is a great price...$2000.
BH
Look at my website below. That took me over three years full time. 12 and 14 hour days 6 and 7 days a week. The first several months I had two guys working for me doing demo and framing (and they suxed) then I had one guy for another cpl of months. The rest of the time I worked alone doing pretty much "everything" including half the plumbing. I subbed out the electrical, A.C and concrete work. Everything else from marble and granite and limestone floors as well as most in oak from installation to sanding, staining, and moisture curing three coats...siding, roofing,kitchen and three bathroom installations..The list goes wayyyyyyyy on.
I lived in the corner of the basement through many cold winters. Its nothing I'd ever do again and don't reccomend it to you "at all". So unless you have globs of money to live elsewhere while you do the house then you better think long and hard.
If I told my entire story about that spec house it might even make Boss Hog feel like his house story is Disney Land .......but I really don't want to relive it again
Point being.....maybe build yourself a "small" house to start and add on as time and money goes by.....I "didn't" because it was to get to my next step and it literally almost killed me trying to accomplish that.
Be thoughtful
Be conscious
Namaste
Andy"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy- I know you said you really don't want to relive it again but besides being an interesting read I'm sure it would provide valuable input to others seriously considering the ownerbuilt home. Your experiences good and bad that were involved in the production are very valuable and I'm sure would be held so by others contemplating sui.. I mean... self building.
I mean the grade of your place is up there and YOU did it. A feat accomplished by so few. Your story and endurance should be shared and in so doing save a lot a of possible hardship for those homebuilders that decide to follow.
For what it's worth from this little remodel dude I would really like to hear some elaboration from you on the building and I really don't think I'm alone in that desire. Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
For what it's worth from this little remodel dude I would really like to hear some elaboration from you on the building and I really don't think I'm alone in that desire.
rez
If I start in on that story it would be one of the longest posts to date along with photos and I really dont think anyone wants long posts like that around here. Book size post.
Basically it came as close as anyone could get from destroying my marriage. Fact of the matter is....my wife was the one who pleaded with todo it against all the better judgement in me. The day I said OK was the start of the horrors.
Thing is, when you only have so much money its a bit insane to try and accomplish what I did. Too much wear and tear on the human body, mind and soul and spirit.
She and my daughter moved into a friends house for months while I lived in a corner of the basement I fixed up for myself with a bed in the corner, TV, Computer and books....oh yeh and two electric heaters.
I had almost the entire upstairs (see my website below of the before picture)ripped off the face of the earth with me down in that corner each night. First winter after I had the deck on for the first floor with tarps covering it up the wazoo heavy snows started to melt that sat on them making them weigh a ton and collapsing pouring tons of water through my drop ceiling. At two in the morning I heard drips. Then opened one eye to see a few of the 2x2 tiles bellying downward and thenSPLAT..SPLAT.. SPALT..One tile after the next dropping onto the commercial carpet I put down there . I ran uptop in my bathrobe boots and hat with my snow shovel...Digging tons of slush off the roof deck sweating my #### off in the freezing cold of the night. What a sight I musta looked like. Trying to get as much slush off as possibel to save my space down the basement from becoming a swimming pool (literally). When I got down the basement my room looked like Saigon after a bombing with electrical wires everywhere ontop of a collapsed ceing grip on the floor in about six inches of freezing water. I quickly shut down the main breaker. My bed and computer and TV unbeleivably went unscaved. That morning at day break I rented a carpet cleaner to suck up all the water and when my guys got there they helped me get everything back in shape (sorta). This happened maybe three times over the course of that first winter no matterhow good I thought the tarps were up.
And this was only one teeny tiny story and it was the start! Ugh.
Can't beleive to this day I eventually finished it and sold it for what I was hoping to get against all odds and all the haughty taughty a-holes in my wifes real estate office saying I'd never come close to the price I wanted. Eat your words yentas.
PS....Those yentas also said I'm nuts for buying the crib I'm in now. That its a loosing battle.....maybe thats one of the reasons I bought it...Never tell me theres something I cant do! Besides I'm not ripping this house apart where I cant live in it fairly comfortably.
Be persistant!
Namaste
Andy
"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 1/8/2003 9:18:58 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Bhackford,
Big job ahead for you! Would count on more then $25 sq.ft. Hope you can make a little money on your old house. Get a good set of plans!! Its always nice to have on site storage (10'x18' min. ). If you go for it I would make sure you have some type of disability insurance on yourself, know of many who have been set back by on the job mishaps,
With the Capital Gains laws I know of many who build & sell every 2+ years and do well, same people had little construction experience 10 years ago. Good Luck!
G8,
I don't think that capital gains law is in effect anymore. Least not here in NY.
a"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
A method for inexpensive building for a experienced DIY type that I have seen on 2 or 3 homes ( all by relatives of a friend of mine) with good results is the following method:1) Buy property and pay off loan.2) Build full basement for planned home and include kitchen, bath, bedrooms etc, in basement. Construct 1st floor deck with a 6-12" rise at center beam. Roof the deck to last 3-5 yrs. Live in basement and pay off expenses for 3 -5 yrs. and build savings.3) During that time, build large pole building/garage/workshop.4) Accumulate needed supplies and store in pole barn.5) Re-level floor deck and build the remainder of the house when you have sufficient savings, supplies, to tackle the house.
This method was used on several very nice 2-300 sq ft homes and keeps the bank involvement to a minimum, it also insures that the workshop will be large enough to be useful later <g>. This was done in a rural setting with a large family involvement in the construction. Lots of cousins, uncles, etc. in the business.
Just another option. Not a solution.
Lefty - Lurker without an attitude or a clue
Edited 1/8/2003 9:31:57 AM ET by Lefty
Would this be the "redneck method" of building? I've also seen it done around here. Sometimes the shell of the upstairs is done when the basement is done, but it's not finished off for a few years.
I don't think it's a bad idea, especially when you're young and foolish............(-: There's nothing inherently dirty about sex, but if you try real hard and use your imagination you can overcome that." [Lewis Grizzard]
At first I thought they were going to be underground homes because the basements were so big and the surrounding ground was landscaped, but I asked around and talked to a family member. They stayed underground homes for about 3 years and when construction started, it happened fast. From start to finish was about 4 months, with a very nice house, probably $200,000 appraisal value, which is near the top in this rural area. Not mansions but very nice housing. Reports were that zero was financed. Not a bad thing to have no mortgage.
Lefty - Lurker without an attitude or a clue
Andy,
Happy New Year! Hope you solved your Problem with Deadbeat you were dealing with. The Capital Gains law is a federal tax law. If you live in the house 2 of the past 5 years & its your primary residence first $250,000 if you are single & $500,000 of profit if married ,is tax free for the feds. I don't know about your NY state taxes. Been there done that! ( Gotta love America!!!)
Check out Modular's Prices
As far as you being the GC
Not a good Idea! If I had time I could give you 20-30 reasons NOT TO DO IT!
Lack of experience when problems arise will cost you your savings on the job. Spend time specting it properly and adv. for GC bids and then review your bids like your doing your yr end taxes . This shouldn't be too hard now that you have Mat. prices per sq'
Study you contract carefully. Dot the i's and cross the t's DOUBLE CHECK
Good Luck!!
1
Ray Marzorati
http://www.probiltinc.com
Check THIS out.
If you are crazy what does that make me? I'm building a timberframe not from a kit (too easy) from scratch!
I've done little stuff before but this is my first complete home.
I desugned it I poured the foundation, heck everything so far..
Look me Up I've been posting as I went along and I'm having a ball!
DO IT! it ain't rocket science any mistakes can be fixed and it's fun! really!
" Look me Up I've been posting as I went along and I'm having a ball!"
Yea but we are jealous over the wife thing . We wonder where she gets her glue. You are very fortunate .
Tim Mooney
My wife really understands the concept of money.. We have only so much and if we spend more than we have she gets to sort out the mess.
We sat down and discussed everything. I painted the picture as accurite as I could but explained to her that it would be a ten year adventure. There was no way I could foresee everything that would happen in the next ten years and she accepted that. We understood that if we did nothing our house would get shabbier and shabbier. Sure we could put a new coat of lipstick on the old pig, but to correct what this house needed, called for drastic action...
In this neighborhood, 750,000 dollar stick frame houses are normal. Add the price of land and the average house on the lake approaches 2 mil. Since we are workin' stiffs, and don't have access to a majic trust fund or anything we needed to find another solution..
I sold some equipment to a sawmill and noticed a stack of railroad ties. At the time white oak was selling for 30 cents a board foot. (and black walnut as cheap as 17 cents)
The idea of a timberframe came to mind and I bought 30,000 bd.ft. of hardwoods..
(my wife loves a bargin as much as I do) But there is simply no way to turn a pile of wood into a home at a reasonable budget without sweat equity.. The result is my wife knows where I'm at every moment and my "vacation" consists of progress on the house.. (she still gets to go though, sometimes it's better to have wives get a few extra privledges....)
Edited 1/9/2003 10:21:25 AM ET by frenchy
What you are saying is that she bought into it for a better place to live . I commend you and her . Just building a small spec is tough is both dont "buy in ". We did the same thing , but she ran out of gas . I really cant say I blame her . We moved four times and built a new house in one year . Then moved the fifth time after that previous year . I was buying , selling , and building at the time . I didnt do all the building though. I was working all the time though. She was also holding down a full time job .
I showed her your thread which I rarely do and she said ;
Damn, they are doing it too. Tell them we commend such effort as we were there. "
We could only afford 1/3 of the price house we are in today if it hadnt been for her "price she paid". She understands it . She worked countless hours , but she never had the conditions your wife has in a house that was open to the stars. We commend you both!
Tim Mooney
Couldn't help but reply... Pricing on a square footage basis is like buying a car by weight. In order to have a per square foot price, you need to have a clear understanding of what materials you are using.
Also, depending on the area of the country you are in, you will have a difficult time finding an electrician that will just install a service panel while you do your own wiring. That is something like going to the bakery with a home baked cup-cake and asking them to ice it for you.
Just my opinion
Thats a very good point .
Tim Mooney
Of course you are! Isn't it wonderful?
Join the company of other wacko's. do something outside your box..
those who council you not to do it or give you accounting reasons to do it, miss the point. It's not really rocket science so anyone with average intelligence can do it. what others are pointing out is their reality.
They do it on a regular basis. it's work! work, they've spent a long time learning how to do efficently. They would really rayjer go fishin' or drink a beer etc. so they can't really understand why someone would consider it their great adventure, and fun..
But if you build your own home you will feel better than any cost overun, you will feel more tuned into your house and less like just one more pawn on the chessboard of life..
reasons not to do it..
Money.. it won't be as cheap as you think... Yes you might save some money, but not as much....
perfection.. If everything needs to be done a certain way and you fail to do it to your satisfaction some people would feel a failure.. If you can accept some things not done exactly as you'd like then you may enjoy this..
Ability to roll with the punches.. If you can not adapt to weather and other peoples schedules or delivery problems etc. on a day to day/ heck hour to hour basis. then don't do it..
Humor.. everybody thinks they have a good sense of humor.. it will be tested.. if you lose your temper things will get worse very quickly.. If the second load of concrete can't be delivered because..... what would you do? (what if the third load has the same problem? or forth?...............)
your wife..
A divorce will cost you half.. can you keep her happy while you are miserable yourself? can you look at the positive side of most things and make her feel as secure as she needs to be?
stick-to-it-ness.
If it's raining but the ... needs to be done or no approval.. can you haul your butt out of bed with a cold and flue and still get the job done? Just how tough are you?
When your buddies invite you over for a cold one and the football game can you tell them no thanks and climb up that ladder? Can you climb down after working on the roof all day and take your wife out to dinner? then the next morning maybe with a bit of a hangover pop out of bed early and pound boards?
"It's not really rocket science so anyone with average intelligence can do it. what others are pointing out is their reality.
They do it on a regular basis. "
Frenchy,
I've got to disagree with you on this statement.
A lot of people can do it. True enough. I've spent a fourth of my working career helping out folks or cleaning up thjeir mistakes when they began such a venture and failed in some way. The underestimate the time, costs, and potential problems. They overestimate their own abilities. They tackle projects they think they know how to do and then when they get in over their heads, they call for help about a month too late and we have to salvage it, sometimes at greater expense than if they had hired it done in the first place. They grossly over-estimate the amount of help they will recieve from friends.
Out Of tweleve owner built homes I am aware here in the past few years, two went back to the bank, leaving them very leery of loaning to unproven owner-builders, and some of the other ones have serious problems with quality. Next week, I will be spending a couple days fixing some things on one of them that could have been avoided in the first place with a little knowledge.
Many of these mistakes don't show up for years as a problem or until the next owner comes along.
I applaude anyone who can and does do it like you and myself and Bhackford if succesfull but from what I know and have seen, only about half of the DIY builders do an overall acceptable job.
Bhackford may well do it and show me wrong about time and cost but in saying that he estimates 25/ft materials cost and a month to close in, he gives clues that he is quite naive about the process, IMO. I hope that this thread has served as a reality check for him before getting in to it.
BTW, Glad you finally got covered up, Your own saga has reminded me of those Little House on the Prarie books I used to read to my daughter at bedtime before we prayed thanks for our warm home.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Fair enough, I did fail to mention the failure rate and the consequences of failure.
Maybe I'm avoiding it because of my own concern about the very subject. I've found that just getting stubborn and focused works for me. Not everyone is built that way..
I do see the big picture and recogonize that if you want something you need to work for it and that work can't be abstract.
regarding failure.. just buying a home is no guarntee you won't go broke or get a divorce. we are still near a 50% failure rate in marriages and bankruptcy's are at an all time high..
Not to suggest that building a house can save a failing marriage or anything, it's just the excuse used when a marriage does fail....
Interesting subject. When I first bought this home I got the orignal deed that goes back to before Minnesota became a state. Just about every other property owner has gone bankrupt owning this place.. In fact I bought it from a bank that had foreclosed on it..
Sometimes I feel that divorce happens and then you plug in your excuse, drink, gamboling, infidelity, drugs, building a home, not working, etc....
It sounds like you might be a Taurus too - bull headed enough to keep the traces tight even if the wheels have fallen off the wagon and sometimes still getting the job done in spite of it all - that's me too.
I'm pulling for ya! (even if you are a Democrat)
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
I think your comments Frenchy a few posts above hit the peg square on the head! And I have to agree with Piffin that not everyone can build a house themselves. It's not so much skill I think as determination, drive, and understanding when you NEED to learn more to avoid the stupid mistakes.
I'm the type that is always doing something. Sure, I've been known to veg in front of the tube from time to time, but usually I'm always working or thinking towards something. I've always wanted to build the house...the fullscribe actually. And then a couple of years ago we came mighty close to a divorce. Living in our little 1850's farm house that really should be dozed and burned wasn't helping much. Yet I wanted to keep waiting to build with logs. So, finally, I decided we'd build the "workshop" to get us up into the woods, a bigger niceer place, and see how that helps. Fully expected that the building process would consume me and my time and we discussed this. Didn't expect my wife would return to full time nursing school as I built, but she did, and she has one more semester to go! Hmmm, maybe I should propose a race to her...state RN certified or CO first...LOL.
I think it has more to do with the persons drive and determination than with anything else. I work with a bunch of rocket scientists...no way would they ever try to do this. LOL Although they all did come out and lift up all my walls when I had them all framed on the ground. Quite a site that was...but fun for all indeed.
If you're working to a really tight budget, and especially a really tight scheudle, I don't think I'd enjoy the process at all. Then it WOULD be WORK. But for me, and all the time i've spent, I enjoy it. When I was doing all the damned iunsulation, batts in the scissor trusses, it was work. But it got done...one batt at a time!
I'll never forget the day I was putting in my water line, 300' from the well to the house, in a 4' ditch. It was raining, sleeting, snowing, the magic temperature. The water was to me knees in some places...I put everything in conduit...and it was done. I've never been so cold in my life!
As Frenchy said, if you can't climb off the roof after a 10 or 12 hour day and take the wife out to dinner, and be happy with your aches and pains which don't go away, then you might be better off writing checks.
My current state of mind is that I will divide the project in half. I will build the back of the house first. 17X48 2 floor plus an attic. It will include a large kitchen, 1/2bath and great room (1st floor) and two bedrooms with full bath upstairs. All under 1,400sqft. This I know I will be able to "close in" in one month. And if costs run over, I will not be filing either 11 or 13.
Then once this is built, money, time and all those other things...I will start the other half.
Thanks for all good advice. Bear in mind that I am not sold on this idea either. I may just do the whole thing and be the GC, but that thought seems to be fading.
My thoughts on being a GC alone...If you know the subs you'd use already, from knowledge of local builders and such, it seems like it might not be too bad. But if you are "guessing", well, it would be VERY painful for me to write checks to folks that don't do at least as good as me, an amerature, could do.
Seems to me the GC is constantly running, scheduling, talking, solving, etc.
Personally, I don't think i could be GC UNLESS the subs were top notch. Everytime I saw their "mistakes" I'd cringe. When I make them, for some reason its way easier to accept. LOL I've been known to cut out a few PVC joints because I wasn't quite happy...or pull out a 40' run of 12/2 because the insulation got nicked.
I still think closing in somethign of that size in 30 days...start to finish...could be tight if working alone. I assume day 1 starts from the bottom plates and up, right?
It took me about 3 full days to install all my windows. I know I'm slow, but that's what it took. Heck, seems to take 5 minutes to unwrap the plastic, cardboard, and pull the big staples. That's 23 windows...many double casements, a french door, and sliding door.
I'm the last one to say don't do it, in fact I say the opposite, but I'm just concerned about 30 days.
We talked about what Im going to tell you before here in another post but here goes again ;
Even if you can do all the work or part there of you are wanting to do, can you make a living doing it ? I say this because I can do most all of the work on a house , "but I dont ". My subs do it cheap. Thats why in my opinion why there are subs. Mostly subs get work from GCs. They must do it cheaper than his own crew can do it or they dont get hired. Thats not the only reason , but its high on the list . There is no way for example that I can roof with subs . My wages or earnings would drop considerably. You are an accountant and I assume you work all year . I feel that you must consider your value . I can understand that you want to do the work your self because the house is yours , but that might not be a management decision . I think you could be more effective being your own contractor and buyer. Thats a big job in it self which is what I do when Im building. I do parts of the house too, and together its full time with out an accounting degree. There is a lot of the work that wont be under contract . My advise is only put your self in there where you are effective .
Tim Mooney
Tim,
And darn good advice too!
Mark
I have been following this thread with some interest. Been there, done that twice and I hope you find these comments helpful.
I think a lot depends on the compexity of the design and the details you include. My first house(which I built myself with some help from my dad about 25 years ago) was pretty easy, a saltbox design. It took me about a year and a half till I could move in, and even then we lived with a lot of dirt and dust for awhile; not a good thing. My ex-wife lives there now.
The new cottage-style house I will wrap up in the next several months has lots of dormers, plenty of compound angles, etc. More complexity, a lot more time, at least for me. I've been working evenings and weekends for a year and a half now.
I can't imagine you will get dried in in 30 days, unless you get great weather and lots of help. Working alone takes a lot more time in most situations. The possibility of getting hurt is also a real one - non-construction related collapsed lung the first home, fell of the first floor onto the basement oil tanks the second. Sh*t happens.
I think it's possible to build for the figure you projects, as long as you scrounge and stockpile alot of materials in advance. Otherwise, I agree with Piffin's $40+/foot, even here in rural PA. The big stuff costs plenty, the little stuff more. The old cliche about it taking twice as long and costing twice as much came about for a reason.
Can't comments on the GC, if that's the way you decide to go. If you mostly DYI, be prepared to have it dominate your life for a few years, and as others have said, make sure any SO understands the deal. If so, then the key thing is - do you love smelling sawdust and pounding
nails? If the answer yes then go for it...just know what the real deal is. Good luck whatever you decide!
Todd