Today, I drove by a jobsite where they were building a rather large extension on this home. As I was watching, I noticed that they were using a coil roofing nailer to install the exterior sheathing. I started talking to the foreman on the job and he tells me that not only do they frame 75 to 100 extensions a year, but that they ALL use 1 3/4 roofing nails to install the sheathing. He says that they have no problems with inspectors at all. When I mentioned using 8 penny nails, clipped heads vs round heads, he dismissed it as all, “just bull$hit made up by guys that think they know what they’re doing! An 1 3/4 long nail is an 1 3/4 long nail so it’s the same thing!” On top of that, there were no hurricane straps, rafter ties, etc., being used ANYWHERE! Again the foreman dismissed it as all just archy bull$hit!
I only bring this up because I’m in the process of building a rather small extension (400 sq ft), and I have to not only install all the hurricane straps and rafter ties, but also retrofit some of them to the old roof structure in the attic! Also, the inspector wants full head, 8 penny nails to install the sheathing. Now the two jobs are in different counties, but according to the foreman, he works everywhere in both counties with no problems.
Is what this foreman saying correct? Do we get hung up on terminology? How can HE get away with some things and I get my chops busted on them (not really busted, but you know what I mean) ? In my heart I don’t agree with him, but he’s the one building all these extensions and not me and making the money from them too.
Replies
I don't care much for the 1 3/4" roofing nail thing. But it sounds like the guy has "always done it that way" so you're not going to be able to tell him anything.
On the hurricane ties - I think they should be on every house. But I also think they shouldn't stop there. If you're tying the roof down to the walls, why not tie the walls down also?
Don't let the fact that one hack does things wrong discourage you. There are hacks in every business.
The human mind is like an umbrella; it functions better when open.
On the extension I'm doing, we have to tie the floor to the garage over where we're building along with the old roof in the attic.
I can`t imagine using roofers for sheathing. Not because an inspector wouldn`t allow it, but because I wouldn`t trust it. I also have never met an inspector who has removed a section of housewrap in order to check for proper sheathing fasteners. On the hurricane clips....depending on the location I believe that they are often overkill. I use em anyway...I`m an overkill kinda guy though.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Do you use hurricane clips when there's ceiling beams nailed to the plate and rafter or just when you have a cathedral ceiling? Or both situations?
Around here NJ, the only time we use hurricane clips is when we have Cathedral ceilngs.
Joe Carola
Edited 6/13/2003 1:33:44 PM ET by Framer
I don`t see a need for it, but if the architect specs it, I will.
Putting an addition on my own home currently where the architect did just that.....I`m going to install em just so that I`m following aproved plans. Easier to do it beforehand rather than afterwards.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Edited 6/13/2003 1:43:27 PM ET by JAYBIRD
"I also have never met an inspector who has removed a section of housewrap in order to check for proper sheathing fasteners."
We weren't allowed to housewrap or dryin the roof until after the fasteners had been inspected.
Thats never been an issue round here....not in my twenty plus years anywho.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
I can't imagine that a clipped head nail is so much more different than a full round head-especially if your probably over-nailing anyhow with a full coil clip-spray and pray as it were. I believe the new International Code calls for all the strapping down-that's why the architect is spec'ing it.
That contractor is a hack so don't follow his example. Can't comment on how he gets away with it. His argument that an inch and three quarters is always an inch and three quarters means little since an 8d nail is two and a quarter inches long. His attitude that he is the only builder in the country who knows ...is what puts him on the poop list and he will never learn anything.
Now, I would never use the roofers for sheathing or recommend it, but on the practical side, it is possible there is an arguement to accept them. A nail's holding power is dependent on the amount of wood it displaces, similar to the fact that the amount of tonnage a boat can float is related to the amt of water the hull displaces. So even though a roofer is shorter, most roofing nails have a larger shank so the amy of stud displaced by the nail may be similar.
Then who knows? He may be applying siding with a lond siding nail that hits every stud on line.
;)
I'd be worried - if I were siding this place - that I would run my siding nails into the roofing heads and curl back out on me, splitting the siding into splinters and gag holes..
Excellence is its own reward!
great points......
Do you remember what kind of sheathing the guy was putting on? The only time I ever use roofing nails to attach sheathing is if we're sheathing with Black Joe--which is basically ½"-thick felt. In that case, the oversized head is important; my stick nailers will sink a common clipped-head nail almost through that stuff unless I back off the air-pressure so much the guns have trouble re-setting after each shot.
But I use 2½" roofers, not 1¾", and they are hand-nailed to schedule. I think the extra length is important, because I know how easily a roofing nail pops out of the roof deck when we strip roofs before re-shingling--a little shove on the shovel and BING! Half the time they do a back flip over my head and land right in the dumpster....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Glad to see your post on this stuff, never heard it called 'black joe' before, probably not politically correct <G>?
Anyway, that's what my own house (1972) is sheathed with, 3" roofing nails 3" OC. Engineering data and test then showed same earthquake strength as 1/2 ply, but the 3" nail schedule was needed and the mfg. specified roofing nails. Used it then as insulation options were lots less than today and the stuff gave an extra R-3.
1/2" asphalt impregnated sheathing is a much maligned and overlooked product that deserves better. I've used it in Texas with blown, wet, cellulose to create a very well insulated and tight wall system. It also is very "green " in that it uses a renewable source, namely crushed sugar cane stalk. As mentioned it can be structural and comes in 9' lengths which can be convenient. Best of all it allows moisture migration to mitigate mold. I use it under Hardieboard. Just a thought...............BTW, I've been using OSB under siding mostly as of late since it's about thr same price. Carpenters like working wth it better.
I think the monicker 'black joe' derives from an old brand name; I'm not sure. Could just be a Canadianism, like 'Beaver Barf' for Aspenite-type chip board.
NBCC (National Building Code of Canada) considers this stuff structural sheathing when the inside wall is gyprocked. I used it on that basis on one new 20' wall when I rebuilt my own house many years ago. However, this was before I had witnessed an accident involving a pre-fab wall being unloaded by boom from a flat. What happened is the boom operator misjudged his height when swinging the wall towards the floor deck, and caught the leading lower corner of the wall on the top of the rim joists. He wasn't swinging fast, really, but the result was that the wall racked about 8 degrees; there were neat little arc-shaped tears pointing to all the nails (3" roofers, by the way) on the black-joe-ed face, and on the other side, one of the gyproc panels popped enough screws that it just plain fell off the wall. The other panels of gyprock all had cracks and popped screws. The wall had to be unsheathed, squared, resheathed with new gyprock and black joe, and finally installed. Crew boss was, uh, let's say mildly peeved.... I was (fortunately) just passing by, delivering an estimate for shingling the roof.
I don't know what to think; NBCC is a pretty conservative document, and there's not much I've found in it that really seems goofy, to me, anyway. (I guess I'm just naturally more conservative.) Still, my place is standing and crack-free, and we're on the south side of the lake where those winter nor'westers slam into it hard enough to make the whole house vibrate. A lot of self-builders sheath chalets up here in black joe; it's cheap (half the price of beaver barf), light-weight, and essentially weatherproof--for a few years, anyway. (It's not uncommon for families to self-build a small chalet on weekends over the course of a couple of summers.)
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
The guy was using 1/2 plywood for sheathing and was power nailing 1 3/4 roofing nails into it.
I only noticed it because I have the same coil roofing nailer and I became curious as to what he was doing.
He's gotta be dumber than a rock--standard stick nails cost a lot less than coil roofers here. Don't they where you are?
Maybe he doesn't own a framing gun and has forgotten what a hammer was originally made for.
Oh well, it probably won't fall down; ½" ply is luxury sheathing these days. Still, kinda makes you wonder--high-cost materials and rock-stupid techniques. Whuuffor? Is he running a tax-loss scam or something...?
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Roofing nails for sheathing? Is he crazy? Look at the head on a roofer. It is very thin and made to hold a shingle. Shingles are soft and the wide area of a roofing nail is made to spread out the stress. I think using a particular type of nail just because it's easy not to change nails is just plain stupid. As for the hurricane straps, the question is are they required in your area? Here on the south fork of Long Island they are now required. If the builder you talked to has gotten away with not using them because inspectors haven't caught him, does that make it right?!!! I think it's all about the MONEY! Some carpenters are all about the money, and not switching nails and leaving out details are about speed and higher profits. In the long run a builders reputation for quality keep him working consistently. When ever it is humanly possible I think doing what is right as opposed to what you can get away with is the thing to do. Doug.
Hardie plank allows roofing nails.
if allowed on the exterior, why not on the sheathing?
The Hardie-plank is not structural.
Hmmmm, that's a good point. But as noted, it is not structural. I spoke to a Hardie board rep at JLC Live and he recommended a Hitachi siding nailer, which would shoot a six penny. Doug
I don`t have a nail pull gage thingie machine, so this is purely anecdotal. I have yet to see a nail used in withdraw (with the exeption of hard woods) that pulled even a clipped head through plywood or framing lumber before it withdrew. Even the ringshank 8d`s from my Paslode leave me unimpressed. At any rate, there`s some really good nailing info in Understanding Wood , by Bruce Hoadley. A lot of common wood "facts" debunked as well.
I realize in the practical world that nails are used in withdraw functions all the time and have known withdraw resistance ratings in various wood species, but aren`t they supposed to be used in shear only? Just wondering.
Hurricane ties and straping for 120 mile an hour winds is required for ALL of Long Island (Nassau and Suffolk counties), not just the South Fork.
It's not so much that I'm required to use the strapping as much as there are those working out there that seem to be getting away with not doing it and using what I feel are not proper methods of construction.
It's frustrating only because you try and make the price competitive and keep to a high standard, but you wind up always competing against guys like this that put you under the table when it comes to how much money they make and how busy they are.
Nino,
Although I'm not sure engineering-wise about using roofers for sheathing, it can't be the worst way. The issue would probably be better solved by a professional. But the major points would involve how many are used and the strength of the flat head on a roofer. I know I have never seen roofers specifically spec'd in any nail schedule, but I've never seen ring shank spec'd either.
In practice however, roofers may be superior to over driven clipped or full head 8d. As inspectors don't pay attention to proper nailing in may area, I would be hard pressed to find any properly driven nails on a frame around here. Properly spaced nails, never. Narrow crown staples are everywhere. Foam sheathing on 90% of new construction, with improperly fastened osb at the corners is the method of choice here.
All my projects are sheathed in plywood where possible and I'm a real prick about proper nail spacing and not over driving them. We pull all shiners so there is not even the hint of an improperly fastend component.
But given some of the improperly fastened plywood alternatives using the "right" nail, I would rather have it nailed off with a roofer.
Tom