Is it my imagination, or have we been getting alot of questions lately from people who shouldn’t be let near a hammer…..
We are all “amateurs”,one way or another, and G*d knows we can all learn something, but if you don’t have the faintest experience, please, do us all a favore & go to your library or bookstore, read up, & then post your question here….some of the questions I’ve seen lately scare me when I think about what the poor poster might be getting in to….
EDIT: From Brian Pontolilo, associate editor
I first saw this thread at home where I usually log on as a guest (with no gavel). My initial plan was to delete the thread as soon as I got to work because it was atop the list of recent discussions and I felt it might give the wrong impression of what Breaktime is all about. When I got to work I read further and was pleased to see that some folks stood up for the “amateurs†in question. So I changed my plan, and the title of the thread. Amateurs are ALWAYS welcome here. In fact we (FHB) often suggest that amateurs come here for good advice. We see lots of people’s work as editors of a home building magazine, pros and amateurs alike. I can honestly say that there are many amateurs working on their houses that make some “pros†look like hacks.
Cheers,
Brian Pontolilo, associate editor <!—-> <!—->
Replies
Ditto. The TV shows have made people think they can easily do it themselves, almost regardless of the task.
Ditto. The TV shows have made people think they can easily do it themselves, almost regardless of the task
I agree. I think alot of it has to do with Home Depot, and Lowes also. They are trying to increase their customer base to include EVERY homeowner. Because of this they have to make it seem simple. They don't care about results, they just care about sales goals.
What really kills me is the affect it has on tradesman. The way they market products, it devalues our abilities. The argument I always get is "Don't target that customer base". Well, the fact is, there are only so many affluent customers who can afford to build with an unlimited budget.
my lumberyard has a sign above the door that says, "2x4 fir stud: $.57/ft, 1/2" cdx: $21.95, installation by skilled tradespeople who will get it done right the first time: well you know."
Now, that's funny.
The sad part is, around here lumberyards are becoming extinct. The one I deal with on a regular basis, is in a real bad location. Just running and picking up a few things is near impossible. They are great, when I can plan a delivery, or make one trip for an entire job. Unfortunately, I end up Lowes because they are open late, and I can stop on my way home.
Dambach Lumber ...
in Harmony.
they deliver pretty much anywhere.
724-452-6330
ask for Doug. or anyone else ... they're all good guys.
tell him Jeff sent ya.
don't expect cheap. do expect good quality and great service.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I've been using Allegheny Millwork, but the south side is a real PITA. Thanks for the lead.
Allegheny Millworks is about a 4 minute drive from my house.
Good people there ... but years ago I found getting deliveries on time and orders 99% right was hit and miss. I still shop there a good bit, but my main account is way up north at Dambach.
I worked for a company where Dambach was the number one yard ... then ... thry found cheaper ... and most of the leads still shopped Dambach as much as possible ... fought with the company owners each and every time explaining how paying a bit more up front actually saves the company money when the right stuff shows up on time and in usable condition.
I bought from "Doug" for a coupla years over the phone and had everything delivered before I actually drove up to meet him in person. That said ... I've only set foot inside the place ... maybe 4 times now?
I have a cell phone ... they have a truck. Works well!
Get used to their delivery ... you'll find yourself spoiled. Their delivery guys are the best.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
it's funny how the other popular forum ( JLC) is pretty tough on newbies and if the question is not up to snuff the just s**t can it . it always makes me kinda smirk , the no b.s approach they have over there . but... they somewhat less approachable, or should i say accessable about the forum. but thats the way the regular contributors want it, no fluff and newbie hand holding.
here at breaktime there's a more generous outlook on the advice and knowledge thats dispensed. theres more of a sense of community like atmosphere. and the people/personalities are more defined and familiar. i personally like to see over confident homeowners with a tivo . stub there toes, it validates my existance . LOL . to all newbies define your situation's, use the fhb search engine . than carefully ask your question..... slainte' just another joe with a hammer..." He who makes a beast out of one's self, get's rid of the pain of being a man"
Edited 5/30/2005 6:03 pm ET by the bear
Ditto. The TV shows have made people think they can easily do it themselves, almost regardless of the task.
Notice the number of shows that are all fluff? I can't find this old house on my cable system at all anymore. Used to be able to watch shows about actual working being done all day sunday if I was so inclined.
NOw all the shows are about some guy making stuff out of MDF under a canopy in the yard and some hot chick in a tank top stapling fabric to it.
Even FHB has changed. I have a bunch of issues from 95'-96' that I saved for one reason or another. The difference is pretty marked.
I think HiDef TV might change some folks minds about two day wonder makeovers. Some of that stuff is so poor, I'd be ashamed to deliver pizza to the site('cept the hotties).
As to the DIYers, they rarely do a good job and many lose twice the money they "saved" when they try to sell their home. The best ones, however, come away with a greater appreciation for fine work and a professionally run jobsite.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
My wife yells at me when I explain that at least one of the shows has a well endowed young lady with a tank-top on to draw your attention away from the quality of whats being done.
"I explain that at least one of the shows"this sounds far fetched.i think you need to identify this show so we can decide for our selves
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
I'll have to ask My wife. For some reason I've never caught the name of the show.
As a HO and a relative newbie here, I come here to seek advice from more experienced individuals. The internet can be a valuable tool for a DIYer, particularly when you have the opportunity to question a knowledgeable community about a particular project. Sometimes when you go to the local Woodsmith store, you can ask the same questions but the people that are working there don't always have the experience or knowledge that you need to finish a project. Plus, it is difficult to say what level of skill each HO has. For example, my SO and I are pretty handy. I have done small woodworking projects in the past (sliding shelves for the kitchen cabinets, built in closet, wall to wall bookshelves), but no furniture pieces or significant trim work, etc. We tried to do a classic DIY project: installing Pergo flooring. After spending 18 hours trying to lay the first few row of boards, we gave up and called an installer. Don't regret a bit. Watching those home shows (particularly weekend warriors) makes you think you can do anything. You look at the homeowners and the way that they fumble around their projects and you think to yourself that YES, YOU CAN DO ANYTHING. The shows are very empowering, dangerously so. But, I don't think that means that a HO shouldn't try these projects. How will a HO ever gain experience but through trial and error? Hopefully, a forum like this cuts down on the need for trial and error and places each person at a better position from the start.
Seems like the DIY shows have been getting worse lately. Like they are leaning more towards entertainment rather than being instructional.
Sheeze, there was one on the other day that was 'showing' you how to put an addition on your house. In 22 minutes, they had the two room addition added; foundation poured, walls framed, insulation added, wiring, drywall, bathroom installed, roof done, etc, etc. They offered no practical how-to, but kept pushing the fact that "you too can build an addition".
Stuff like that is probably job security for some of the pros (ie correcting HO mishaps).
jt8
It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. --Chinese proverb
I think the genre of home improvement shows jumped the shark when Bob Vila left TOH. It used to be a "must see" for me, but when they started focusing on homes outside the realm of most people (20K+ showers) I lost interest.
The show I thought was the best was Bob Vila's old show - the one apparently before TOH. It had Norm on there before he had a beard and spent more time on really detailing the work being done.
One thing to keep in mind OldHouseFan
this forum would be a flourishing enterprise WITHOUT a single DIY'er.
BUT
this forum would die in a single day without the the pro's who hang out here.
Part of the price of admission the pros' pay is occasionally being annoyed by non-sensical or repetitive DIY questions---that's fair enough I think------
But---part of the price of admission for the DIY'er is occasionally his DIY status is gonna be pointed out to him.
To be perfectly fair----I think the vast majority of the pro's who post here bend over backwards to be helpfull, polite and friendly( after all---they are pro's)
BUT----I guesstimate it's under 50% of the DIY'ers who have the slightest appreciation of the value they recieve from the pro's here----and the pro's recieve no reciprical benefit from the DIY participation------RARELY even a "thank-you" and almost never does a DIYer come back later and say"hey---I did it the way you suggested and it worked out great----you were right on the money---thanks for the good advice"--------but you catch a lot of the pro's here thanking each other all the time-----LIKE I said---they are pro's.
Want a better example?
this morning I had a message left on my business answering machine politely demanding a return phone call.
After returning the call I discover the call is from a retiree in New Jersey( I am in Ohio) who read my article in FHB. He wants me to diagnose via long distance telephone, at MY expense and during MY working hours the cause of a probable very trivial cosmetic problem.
now---this guy was friendly, reasonably polite---but kind of pushy in that New York/New Jersey sort of way--------but most tellingly----he had absolutely no concept that he just cost me $8-$10 in long distance phone charges and a chunk of time out of my work day( actually my work day and my employee's both.) conservatively he cost me about $40 -------and he would not take the hint to get off of my phone and consult with someone local----after all he must figure I am running a free public service for HIS benefit.
He was a nice enough guy----but essentially inconsiderate------and that type of thing happens a lot here on Breaktime----no realization of the value recieved vs. the annoyance given.
Best wishes, Stephen.
Wow, that's worse than any call I've gotten. I have spent an hour on the phone with customers asking questions about septic systems and subdivisions (I'm a civil engineer), but at least it was on their dime.
I have offered to pay a few different local contractors for their time, to explain to me how to do certain homebuilding/construction things. Usually, it's a prelude to them actually getting some work out of the deal (as opposed to simply acting as a paid consultant). For example - I sat down with an electrician for three hours and went over the complete electrical/lighting plan for my house. I asked him how much of the job he was willing to let me do myself (mostly rough-in) and told him to add the consulting time to his bill. He'll be doing the installation of the main and subpanels and most of the connections. I get to put in the boxes, run the wire, and buy all the materials.
The benefit to both of us is that he gets to work on other projects that demand his presence, he can "fill in" his schedule with my stuff, and I learn.
Jon
Jon,
If the gentleman in question was a customer---or even a prospective customer-----I wouldn't have mentioned it at all.
And --again---he was a nice, fairly polite, friendly guy-----but he had NO idea he just cost me about $40-----after all he had questions----and he assumed I would be thrilled to call him long distance on MY time and on my dime in order to GIVE him the answers.
BTW---I don't recall getting a thank-you out of it either. LOL,
Stephen
next time you get that - like all you famous authors do - start6 the conversation by getting his billing adress and letting him know what your rates are for consulting. If it gets too frequent, get yopurself a 900 number and phone.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've mentioned this before, but that's exactly why I don't use my real name on this forum anymore. The first time one of my replys got published in the magazine, the governor's wife saw it and figured since I was giving out free advise on the internet, she could call me at home around 11pm (after several margueritas or something) and quiz me about the job the roofer's she hired were doing. I'd previously done some gutter work for them, but was not offered a chance to bid this job- she thought I only did gutters. Everytime I get a cool project that I think might be worthy of an article, my jets get cooled when I think of that episode.Hey Mister Sushi, you forgot to cook my fish.
"Am I dead or alive? What's this? Linoleum? I must be in hell." -The Salton Sea
Now that is a GREAT story. You should be able to get plenty of cocktail party conversation out of how you told the govenor's wife to get lost.ps REAL linoleum is making a comeback.
That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. I don't have the confidence or the knowledge to think I should be wiring my house, but I'm planning to put in conduit and I'm very particular about where the outlets go.
I'm going to run the conduit, pull the wires, and leave it all open for him to come in and connect everything. It's an old house and running the conduit (because of upcoming icynene application) is a dirty, time-consuming job that my electrician had no interest in doing and as particular as I am it would result in both of us being frustrated.
The kind of question I would ask are more likely to see if my thinking is way off base. For example - I'm having new electrical service put in. After doing extensive reading on the subject I want to have 400A run to two 200A disconnects on the carriage house, and run one of those to the house (about 60 feet) and leave the other for the carriage house.
I have had one electrician say I HAD to use one 400A box, but I had another say I could use the two disconnects (I also read this in the Wiring A House book I bought from Taunton). My question is - is the dual 200A OK?
However, when I ask that question I don't want to have some clowns mock me as not knowing about being an electrician - I NEVER SAID I WAS. Besides, someone else will get the work - the info I get here will just help me decide who that is.
"One thing to keep in mind OldHouseFan
this forum would be a flourishing enterprise WITHOUT a single DIY'er"
Yeah, but that's just it. While I'm not privy to the Taunton Financials, I seriously doubt that this forum is a big source of revenue. I suspect it is more of an inducement to subscribe to the magazine and purchase the books for sale. As such, there is a whole lot more to gain from the huge supply of DIY'ers than from a small group of "regulars" who want to unload on someone "green" or who didn't phrase a question just the perfect way to suit their sensibilities. There is no excuse for some of the obnoxious behavior I have seen here - if you (generic) want people to respect and appreciate your profession, don't act like a bunch of neanderthals.
Part of the price of admission the pros' pay is occasionally being annoyed by non-sensical or repetitive DIY questions---that's fair enough I think------
But---part of the price of admission for the DIY'er is occasionally his DIY status is gonna be pointed out to him.
Oh, come on, a DIYer can be told they are in over their heads but there is no reason to verbally harass them in order to "run them off." Besides, I didn't see that "Price of Admission" written anywhere.
To be perfectly fair----I think the vast majority of the pro's who post here bend over backwards to be helpfull, polite and friendly( after all---they are pro's)
I would tend to agree.
BUT----I guesstimate it's under 50% of the DIY'ers who have the slightest appreciation of the value they recieve from the pro's here----and the pro's recieve no reciprical benefit from the DIY participation------RARELY even a "thank-you" and almost never does a DIYer come back later and say"hey---I did it the way you suggested and it worked out great----you were right on the money---thanks for the good advice"--------but you catch a lot of the pro's here thanking each other all the time-----LIKE I said---they are pro's.
Well, I guess that's just the way it is - if the assistance is predicated on a specific "Thank You," then those who can't tolerate the lack of one should probably refrain from answering. Don't get me wrong - I certainly think people should be appreciative but if they aren't, they don't deserve to be mocked/ridiculed.
Want a better example?
I hear you on that but then you didn't cuss him out or mock him on the phone, right? Then why would it be acceptable here?
As for me, if I were to place such a call as the result of an article, I would make it clear that I was looking for more in-depth information than the article provided and I would expect to pay for the time. IMO that works out better for both parties as I am don't feel I'm putting someone out and you don't feel put out.
Want a better example?
this morning I had a message left on my business answering machine politely demanding a return phone call.....
I don't think this one is 'better', but it happened yesterday early evening....
I'm out applying a borer spray on the peach trees (low pressure, high volume hand gun type of job), when this pick-up truck comes driving thru my orchard - spots me, drives to a spot that blocks me from continueing and parks - gets out, starts quizzing me on what I'm doing - then starts asking questions about spraying his apple trees at home - all the classics - how, when, where,
and my favorite, 'I have some chemical at home that I got at an auction, how much do I use?' - - 'well, what chemical is it?' - - 'I don't remember' - - (answer: read the label and follow the instructions)
I kinda know the guy - a 'handyman' that lives up the road 4 miles - he comes once a year or so to buy some fruit and question me about growing it - only to see him the next season with the very same questions - - - I'll talk, if it doesn't interfer with business - comes with the retail territory - pissed me off last night - just about ran him off - I guess I did, kinda, but did keep my cool - rude...oughta make anyone that greats me with 'how....?' hand me a $5 bill....
"there's enough for everyone"
I think the genre of home improvement shows jumped the shark when Bob Vila left TOH. It used to be a "must see" for me, but when they started focusing on homes outside the realm of most people (20K+ showers) I lost interest.
I think I stop taking them serious when I heard a TOH HO bemoaning the 'tight' budget they had for the kitchen. Only had $100k to spend (on the kitchen). How EVER did they manage?!
DIY show last night, guy was moaning about tight budget and how it caused him to do much of the work... right before he put in a $5-10k stove, 4' wide fridge, steam cabinet, wine cooler, and 3 or 4 other appliances. jt8
It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. --Chinese proverb
"Now all the shows are about some guy making stuff out of MDF under a canopy in the yard and some hot chick in a tank top stapling fabric to it. "
Amazingly true. That's exactly what the two women in the house here were watching about 4 seconds ago. They're busy critiquing the design ideas and the color while some idiot is painting over wallpaper. Fortunately, the wallpaper bubbling problem was solved when the popped holes in the bubbles and pushed them back down. Whew!
We've been talking a lot about the new DIY phenomenon that's being fueled by Lowes and Home Depot. Absolutely right: The combined effect of the big box stores and the home improvement/home makeover reality shows is that everyone thinks it's no big deal to put on a tool belt and become an "instant" contractor. But here's the thing: The work doesn't lie. It doesn't take long for a neophyte to discover that gee, it's not as easy as I saw on TV. The craft of fine homebuilding is sorta like a pickup basketball game. You can talk a good game, but let's get out on the court and show me what you got. The ongoing discussion of FHB catering to non-pros is really beside the point. The work doesn't lie, and in this community of craftspeople, our aim is to explore exactly what it takes to work at the highest level. If you're not a pro but you want to try your hand, we'll make room for you. But don't expect the same "it's a snap" buzz words that you see on TV.
And then you have amateurs flipping out advice like experts. Just cause they heard it would work, or saw it somewhere.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
Gunner,
Right on. The "pump-primer" posters; they don't know, sometimes even admit that they don't know, but just feel compelled to toss something out there. To give 'em the benefit of the doubt, maybe they think they're helping, trying to prime the pump.
Cliff
The last home show we were at had a local newspaper reporter roaming about. He quoted me when I answered his question about how these shows affect business.
I said it is a double edge sword. On one hand at least people have an idea of what they want and some idea of what is involved. On the other hand now everyone thinks a ceiling fan install takes 25 minutes including commercials so when I say 2 hours they think I am from mars. DanT
But, but, but....But I heard that Cag saw you do it that way !!!I swear !And it worked !
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
Who appointed you to decide how experienced someone should be before they should be allowed to ask a question? This is a service bought and paid for by Taunton for the benefit of the public. If you're too good to answer a question from someone asking for help, then ignore the post and move on.
Y'no, with all due respect to your point of view, I did not get that at all from JRnBJ's post.
I learn from TV shows, too. I get ideas, too. But I know that you cannot get a good job in 47 minutes - or in a weekend.
One show I like to watch here in Canuckland is "Holmes on Homes", but out on HGTV.
This guy, Mike Holmes is a big, burley contractor who rants and raves about the terrible contractors working without permits and getting things balled up and dangerous. Many of my customers watch it, and I explain to have that much work done calls for a lot of skill and time. People get the idea.
There are many things people can do who never thought of it before, and they parts at HD and Lowes. It will take them the same 10 years or so to get professional results it took us to get to that point - if they do it all the time, like we do. Until then, I have to tell them that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and building skill is a learned skill, with lots of mistakes along the way.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
"Who appointed you to decide how experienced someone should be before they should be allowed to ask a question?"
I did. I held a meeting ... I decided on JR.
Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.
I think it's working out well ... see ... he even let you post a question!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
ISn't JR's term up soon? HAve you been giving any thought to who you'll appoint next or is JR looking for a second term?
yes ...
and votes can be bought.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
J.J.- this post slayed me ... ya gotta love a guy that takes control.
thanks for the hoot. and put me down for two votes.....whats that 50 cent.??" He who makes a beast out of one's self, get's rid of the pain of being a man"
U already plied me with good beer.
Consider yerself elected!
let us all know when your term is up ...
and Congrats!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You know what I like best about this place...
People can come and go as they please, Professional or Homeowner.
You don't like what you find, how you're being treated, how others are being treated, the quality of the questions, what ever.
You can stay or leave, no one has a gun to their head to be here, except maybe the moderator....
no sense bitching about it, though I've done my share, just leave.
Welcome to the Hotel California.
"Logic, like whiskey, loses it's beneficial effect when taken in too large quantities." Lord Dunsany
if you don't have the faintest experience, please, do us all a favore & go to your library or bookstore, read up Getting a little uppity, are we? A feeling of superiority and unapproachability? Lighten up. There's no such thing as a dumb question, only a dumb answer.
I like to see people who start out "I'm a first time poster, probably a simple question but ..." That way we know they are asking for help/advice, and they have (hopefully) come to a professional source. I'm eager to help anyione who is willing to admit they don't know, and willing to learn.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
I'm happy to help too....lots of people helped me get where I am....but when people post questions that would require an apprenticeship just to get them to where they can understand the answer, then I'm stumped....I've read a few questions lately where I start to answer & then just shake my head & move on (as WAYNELS suggests)....maybe I am too good to answer, or maybe I just don't think that I can substitute a few paragraphs here for twenty years experience....
I believe it's all how you perceive that statement. I believe reading and educating yourself is a main aspect of increasing your skills & bettering yourself. Which, in turn, will help in wording a clear & concise question on the forum. Ideally, mutual knowledge & respect promotes advancement.
I just received a few clearance books from Taunton publishing. "Tricks of the Trade, helpful shop Notes, fencing book. I must say, they are extremely resourceful, well written, great comprehensible diagrams, jigs & joinery techniques that save time & labor...... I'm ramblin...... But i'm really enjoying them
Anyone who has assisted or helped compile the info for Taunton literature "GOOD JOB!" I am greatful to have such resources.
Chipper dream it - believe it - do it.
"I'm eager to help anyone who is willing to admit they don't know, and willing to learn."
Ed,
I feel the same way about my furniture making students. However, I am chagrined at those who express great interest, but fail to do any homework.
I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who think nothing of consuming my time by asking questions that demonstrate they have done no independent study, much less the assigned reading, and have done little to prepare themselves to ask intelligent questions.
I respect the posters who don't act like a know-it-all, and respect them even more when their questions demonstrate an intelligent approach to their questioning, which may include a little reading or other research instead of posting questions with virtually no preparation of forethought.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Edited 5/31/2005 12:56 pm ET by jazzdogg
I think I used to be one of those people you described. Although for myself I have taken it many steps further and am trying to make a living at it now.
Indeed homeshows and the like try to make trades work look simple and easy and indeed I was suckered into that mindset. Little did I know what a contrast it'd be once I got in the real world and experienced a wide range of variations, complexity and ambiguity. In short, you can't put this stuff in books and learn from it to become professional. God knows I learned that. Others never learn and still feel like "experts" because "that's all there is to it, slap some mud on and sand it all off." I just did a DW finish job for a guy who read a book on installing DW. Never did it before in his life. It was the worst hang job I ever saw, Iwent thru almost a bag of durabond just to prep for taping. I did my best but it didn't come out class A like my other work. I asked if he glued the DW. He said no, the book didn't tell him to. He also used wrong sized screws. I told him I give him a few months he'll be calling me back to fix screwpops and cracking joints.
FHB has been around a while but I never saw it once until I went into a big box few years back. My first issue I fell in love with because it seemed to care about how to REALLY do things. As such I've started seeing FHB in grocery stores and the like. Naturaly this makes it available to amateurs. The magazine itself promotes readers to visit and participate in the BT forums. I am sure that is where these other amateurs are coming from. Personally, now that I"m making a living out of it, I'd rather see HOs NOT come to BT out of respect for our skills and experience so that one of us can be called to do the job right.
Personally, now that I"m making a living out of it, I'd rather see HOs NOT come to BT out of respect for our skills and experience so that one of us can be called to do the job right.
Ooops, before anyone chastises me for that last statement. What I mean is, I don't have a problem with someone coming here to learn. Geesh, that's how I got started. What I mean is that a lot come here to learn, then take the advice and go and try to implement it, mess it up, and then we get a call to fix it and have to put up with the bickering that it'll be x dollars which is almost always more than they expect in particular that we have to undo what they did to fix it. If they would just respect our skills and only come here for advice and surmise their ability to do it and reason that it's better to call in a pro, then that is what I was trying to say in a roundabout way.
Like others I'm willing to help when I can. Yet the great thing about BT is, I'm ever learning, and many here keep helping me for which I'm grateful. But I have a lot of experience and skill that I fall on to implement the advice I get here. Most HOs seem to not have that. They WOULD save if they just called one of us in the long run.
Exactly. I'm here to relax, help out , and learn all at the same time. Fun ain't it?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep, it is fun. Seriously. I always get something beneficial. And occasionally something totally beneficial I feel quite grateful.
I just love to look at Do-it-Yourself book but none are written the way I teach someone. Normally one goes to school, then really learn in the real world.
If only the Shows and Books would show ALL the mistakes we have done, not the easy way to do things.
I have not seen a book or show say "Use a waffle faced hammer or else you will keep bending nails", FHB has.
But what some of you are apparently missing is that not every DIY'er comes here in hopes of saving money because it "seems so easy on TV."
I've been doing work on old houses for 20 years or more and read this mainly to get other perspectives and to be well-informed when I do need to hire contractors (which is often).
Also, though I'm sure there are many DIY'ers who do a crappy job, I have more trouble in a small town finding someone who will do the job the way I want it done - and I'm not trying to nickel and dime anyone. I don't doubt there are more available in a larger town but then to do it the way I want it done sometimes becomes cost-prohibitive.
While it's great that there are "regulars" here, it is a double-edged sword as well because they think they "own" it and toss out insults at unsuspecting people who ask sincere questions. Sad that they feel the need to do that in what appears to be an effort to boost their own egos.
Cranky, maybe...insulting, I hope not....head on over to the Woodshed if you're looking to get flamed.....LOL
just consider it a challenge to come up with a tactful answer to even the questions you find most nerve wracking......
"I just bought this new bench porch swing to hang out on my front porch on my house. The ceiling on the porch is those wood boards like paneling with the grooves in it. My lovely wife goes about 260 and I was thinking about using some of those big screws that have the circle on them to screw into the wood ceiling and hook the chains onto. Do you think those kind of big circle screws are okay ? Will screwing right into the wood boards on the ceiling be the hot ticket ? Thanks in advance. "
Okey in Muscogey
carpenter in transition
Oh, and by the way
it's spelled amateur.
carpenter in transition
Folks with a 'tude get it back, you'd better get over it.This place is a tool, and dang good one. If I was a HO needing info, I'd come here asking stupid questions...sheeit, I do this stuff for a living, and still ask plenty of dumb butt stuff here...it's a world wide collective, what could be better?What gets me is the wanna bees throwing out their theories like they are facts, those are the dangerous ones...but hey, this is cyber space, and Gunner is really a 14 year old girl<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
"Folks with a 'tude get it back, you'd better get over it."
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Who do you think you are to tell people to "get over it?"
From what I have seen, if someone comes here and asks a question and gets flamed by the "regulars" it isn't the person asking the question who has the "tude."
Does anyone think Taunton maintains this site to provide an opportunity for "regulars" to revert back to childhood and toss out ridiculous taunts and jabs at people? I doubt it. I'm assuming this is part of the reason The Woodshed was moved - because sometimes little boys have to have a sandbox to play in.
Here's a couple clues for you (generic "you") it's these "dumb," "green" homeowners who are paying you. If you can make them aware of what quality work really is, I believe it's more likely they will seek it out rather than doing it themselves or finding a "friend" who does (insert trade here) on the "side."
Hey, you came on in a very rude manner. You, apparently think you have some kinda right to call out Mike Smith with that little man crap...and you're going to tear him apart...I don't care if your a pro or a ho, that was totally uncalled for. You haven't showed that you can, or would help anyone. Mike has, and many times over.So some people jumped in your sheet, and you get whiney. Are you going to help someone with an attitude? If you can't get over it, not a lot of very knowledgeable folks here are gonna work with you. This place is an amazing resource, you can use it, or abuse it...but you seem to be someone who is very used to getting their own way...so sorry that I miffed you<G> is playing with others that hard for you? Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Sorry, Pal, I didn't come on in a rude manner - I addressed what was posted without attacking the poster. Little Mikey came back with his "brilliant" reply of "Blow it out your azz." How intelligent! How insightful! Really makes me think!
In my opinion he is one of the worst of the "regulars," and if he wants to take shots he can expect to get it back because I'm not impressed and there is no way on God's green Earth that I am going to take his crap.
As to "whiney," I guess you lack the ability and/or experiance to recognize rational discussion.
I am a pro, except on my own house. I'd like access to BreakTime please!?Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
Well, I suppose that old knob&tube wiring insulator could serve a multiple purpose of making it easy for someone to 'blow it out your azz' in the event one would want to experiment.
Seems a bit on the obtrusive side of comments to display that crude vernacular tho'.
Perhaps the insulators could be used in a contest at The Glasscity Fest if any of the festers fester to a point of reaching an impasse in argument.
Knife sharpeners, verbal constipater relievers, smoke pipes...I wonder if these things would sell on Ebay. Got a few long ones that went thru three joists.
be insulated
"I can't say I was ever lost, but I was bewildered once for three days."
What do I win?!?! I've never won anything before...Mom will finally be proud of me!###It was 25 years ago that I was pulling K&T from the basement of my first house--a circa 1901 row home--and rewiring it head to toe. Ahhhh, those were the days.
Well, seeing that it's amateurs welcome here and I'm blooming amachure and I'm finishing a knob&tube wiring reno and I ran into a situation and I'd like to ask for a little input here if I may.
And...md
There had been various electrical updates on the house during it's history and I found only one example of aluminum wiring which was in a switch leg line running a single light fixture. 12-2 copper to the light itself, aluminum in the switchleg.
Now I could replace that aluminum line but it is in the middle of a 2nd floor area I am working over and would mean cutting the floor board to get to it... yada yada.
Of course it's ungrounded line but in good shape otherwise. How important is the replacing of that line which I'd rather not get so involved in unless I have too. Can I leave that line in there and use the grease cap aluminum wire deals and let it go at that?
What the...!! Just looked out the window and the carpenter bees are back chewing holes in the CCA on the deck. Maybe it should be replaced with ACQ?
"I can't say I was ever lost, but I was bewildered once for three days."
I think I'll defer to the electrical professionals on that one!
"It was 25 years ago that I was pulling K&T from the basement of my first house--a circa 1901 row home--and rewiring it head to toe. Ahhhh, those were the days."Another one of the clues amateurs.You are suppose to wire the HOUSE, not the head to the toe. At least not YOUR head to toe, unless a) the head and toe is that of your neighbor, b) you are in training for a job at sing-sing.
Edited 6/2/2005 12:44 pm ET by Bill Hartmann
See? They never tell you that on HGTV."A completed home is a listed home."
In my opinion he is one of the worst of the "regulars,"
hehehehehe dont go promoting anyone over me..thats my title and i bet you'll get quite a few amens on that....
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In my opinion he is one of the worst of the "regulars,"
Think he resents the source of the info he seeks?
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
AMEN!We can't have any coup d'tats here. Stability is a good thing. you are still the worst of the bad. Keep it up - er down - or whatever
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What you wrote, I think you're right. I wouldn't want to exclude anyone to BT for any reason. Sometimes it's hard to gauge who's serious about taking advice given and can safely and practically implement it I guess. BT humbles me, because just whenI think I know a lot about something I see I often know a little about a lot. I know enough to make a legitimate living, but I hunger for continued professionalism and growth. I get that here.
I do suspect at times there are those who see it as very easy on TV, as myself did and then get started. get in a jamb and need immediate help and may seek it here. In that case BT may help, or go the the other way.
... I wouldn't want to exclude anyone to BT for any reason...
hummm...you must not have been around when 'Larry' was here....
"there's enough for everyone"
Big Broad Smile
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
David, who was "larry?"
Bobby Jones was an amateur.
Oh,Oh,Oh, (in my best Horschack imitation) here's a question a non-pro can answer!
Larry, bobcat, and whatever other names he went by, is somebody who had some personal problems and brought them to the forum in a way that most, well everybody, found objectionable. He is the main reason why there is a 24 hour lag in postings by new members. I will say that he must have had a lot of time on his hands - I can recall one day when I came into the forum that there must have been 30 threads, all from him, that had foul language in the title, and were all directed against the person that he apparently hated at that moment.
An entire thread could be generated on Larry's offences, but he is banned from posting anymore and has no way to defend himself.
I know enough to make a legitimate living, but I hunger for continued professionalism and growth. I get that here.
Well spoken.
After 33+ years in the trades, I couldn't agree more.
Dave
I was thinking about this thread last night. I don't think this board is anti DIYer or even anti beginer. But I do think it tends to be anti "green homeowner" looking to learn which end of the screwdriver to use instead of calling a contractor. I like it the way it is. Nice balance I think. Besides kicking the occasional "green homeowner" around is good for us that have to deal with them on a daily basis. :-) DanT
I don't think that anyone should be excluded. Further more most of the "pros" here are HOs too, and let's face it - no Pro is an expert in every related trade. On the other hand I do think the content of this site is sometimes diluted by questions that are not well thought out and by the FAQs too. People need to use the search function. Some Qs are definately on the frindge of relevence. Six or so years ago I lobbied heavily for a FAQ folder. No luck, although I think at that time the moderators had less of a handle on the technical aspects of how to manage the forum. Heck, If I really wanted to throw rocks, I'd say that this forum is supposed to be for homebuilding, not remodeling :-) but don't necessarily feel that way...
Here is a thought though: Instead of just complaining about the problem, let's offer some solutions. A quick web search turned up the following web sites which don't appear to cater to pros:
http://forum.doityourself.com/index.phphttp://homerepair.about.com/mpboards.htmhttp://homerepairforum.com/forum/default.asp
Maybe these places would be a better medium to get answers about "what is the best window", "how to cut crown molding" or "grass seed". Anyone else have some good ones? Matt
I think OldHouseWeb is a good source for many of those questions, especially as pertaining to old houses (Duh!). However, the same problem exists there in the sense of the same questions being asked time and time again (How do I remove plaster? Do I need gutters? Is knob & tube wiring safe?, etc.).
It is primarily homeowners there giving the answers there, but I'm going to say very few are "green" homeowners and the ones who are are generally treated with patience.
It seems to me that if you want to require a certain level of expertise before being allowed to post, that's fine, but then create your own (not you personally) board. If you don't want to do that then there is no excuse for taking potshots at people asking sincere (although possibly stupid) questions. If you don't like it, don't reply at all.
The problems with those DIY forums are that they only people who hang out on them are DIYers.
As a homeowner I don't want to find out about the right way to do something from somebody who did it once on their own home and thinks it looks pretty good. I want to find out from somebody who does it every day. Then when I am interviewing a sub to do something (electric, drywall, tile, whatever it is that is falling apart on my house), I have a better idea of the questions to ask. Yes, I do some things myself. Sometimes it turns out OK, other times it doesn't. Usually I end up doing it myself when the job is just too darned small to interest a professional. Sometimes I end up doing it myself when the professional tried three times and still can't seem to install the toilet so it doesn't rock when I sit down on it.
If you look at the box at the top there is a section called 'Home Building, Remodeling & Design'. It leads to the Fine Homebuilding archives: "The leading source for information on new residential construction, remodeling, and home design."
I first saw this thread at home where I usually log on as a guest (with no gavel). My initial plan was to delete the thread as soon as I got to work because it was atop the list of recent discussions and I felt it might give the wrong impression of what Breaktime is all about. When I got to work I read further and was pleased to see that some folks stood up for the “amateurs” in question. So I changed my plan, and the title of the thread. Amateurs are ALWAYS welcome here. In fact we (FHB) often suggest that amateurs come here for good advice. We see lots of people’s work as editors of a home building magazine, pros and amateurs alike. I can honestly say that there are many amateurs working on their houses that make some “pros” look like hacks.
Cheers,
Brian Pontolilo, associate editor
"So I changed my plan, and the title of the thread."
Wow. If that's not editorial license, I don't know what is. I guess you guys should just change anything that's written here that you don't agree with.
I noticed that title change. Bravo!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Amateurs are ALWAYS welcome
Thanks for reaffirming what I thought was FHB intent.
lot of reading in this post - figured I might as well add my $.02 - at this point I'm not so sure of the intent of the original post but...... I think it had to do with postings that ask how to do things that probably shouldn't be done - like the guy at Rocky's Ace hardware who was all set to use 14/2 wire as an "extension cord" for his 220 V/ who knows how many amps? plasma cutter in the garage - planned on plugging it into the dryer outlet - thought since it had 250v on the box, it must be okay. Or my friend's neighbor's deck with the 4x4 posts that "rest" on the rounded tops of the concrete piers and the the railing that only move a little when you lean on them - my friend had me check it out - we offered to strenghten it and make it more stable - the neighbor thinks it's all set so my friend's kids don't play on the deck any more and any parties he goes to he stays off the deck. And he PAID someone to build that deck. Bottom line - asking questions is great, just be sure you're willing to accept the answer - the would be electrician took my advice to get a real guy to install a sub-panel and spend the money before he burned down his house, the neighbor is still risking his future and other people's safety with his deck.for what it's worth, I'm a DIY guy but I like to think I work like a "pro" - and I've had some "pros" give me some positive comments on my work - think that's what this site is really about.
Seems like I have opened a can of worms here...
I'll say it again, we are all amatuers.....
I never meant to suggest that this should be a pros only forum....
Mostly I was reacting to and observing that I had seen a lot of posts lately that, IMHO, were looking for simple/easy answers to complex questions, and that I, personally, am much more likely to respond to someone if I have a sense that they have done their homework (Ha Ha), and can't resolve a lingering question about how something should be done....
So, thanks Brian for not deleting the thread, sorry if I offended anyone, and, as things most always balance in the long run, I'm sure we will keep this place both interesting for the pros & useful for the amatuers.
>if I have a sense that they have done their homeworkThey might consider this place as a good starting point for that homework, no?If I subscribed to a magazine, and they had a forum, and I had a question, then I might post it on that forum without realizing that some people had prerequisites in mind before I posted.My take is that this becomes a good way to practice patience. I'm on another forum related to my specific brand of construction where I'm much more omniscient (tongue-in-cheek) than I am here, and that probably means that the simple or presumptuous questions strike me as even more so than they do here where I'm only semi-omniscient (again, tongue-in-cheek). But I have to be even more patient there, be/c there are a lot of potential customers there, and they want to know that I'll be appropriate with them even on their stupid questions. The patience I learn by gently answering stupid questions here has also helped me to better handle dw's questions. (REALLY tongue-in-cheek)
Watch out - you're liable to bite your tongue real soon now. LOL!"A completed home is a listed home."
No problem...my foot is in my mouth frequently enough to be a tongue guard.Seriously though, people are talking about this like there are distinct categories of people--diy, amateur, professional--when in reality there are broad spectrums of expertise. I'm smart enough on some stuff and really dorky on other stuff. I remember my first time talking to my steel supplier, and I felt like the stupidest person on earth. Half a year later he called me to size a curved handrail for him be/c I had learned something by then and done a tricky project successfully.If someone asks a naive question, it's pretty easy to give them the lay of the land so they can frame more helpful questions. If they ask insulting questions with an attitude, well, that's different and can be handled appropriately. I think the problem comes if someone feels they're above a certain question and instead of ignoring it, decide to tell why the question (or questioner) is beneath them.
Maybe the profiles could have a blank of two for "things I am omnicient in" and for "things where I ama complete dork";/)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe the profiles could have a blank of two for... "things where I ama complete dork"
I'd need more than "a blank".
I still like the idea of being able to put comments in other people's profiles (so that only you can see the comment you are typing in). That way you could remind yourself what the person does well (and otherwise).
jt8
It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. --Chinese proverb
JRnBJ,
It's funny, because I'm a DIY'er and I frequent this forum often. I'm also a doctor for my real job. I'm now into my 6th year of training after medical school, so I can't afford to have a pro fix my house right now. I see the same thing that you're talking about with people when somebody wants to talk about health on the forum. I see lots of advice, most of it pretty good, but some of it would get you in trouble if you followed it...
I agree with you that people who don't take the time to read up on what they're trying to do and go into it half-cocked are annoying. I remember hearing a radio program on how dangerous home repairs can be, with the host someone who took the cover off of a light switch and got zapped. Rediculous -
I come into home repair after working all the time with my dad who is an Archy and very experienced - I put an addition on his house with him one Summer in medical school, and learned how to basic electrical because he didn't know how to. Must have read the time-life books and then Rex Cauldwell's book a couple dozen times, and at least 3 times before I replaced an outlet by myself. Often I'll do smaller jobs for my father because the electricians are too busy around here and turn him down, so I don't think that I'm taking work from them. On occasion, I have given advice here about wiring a 3 way switch or some matter - I always preface it by saying I am a DYI'er and you should wait for a real electrician to chime in. People usually have found these helpful, from their replies.
I find this board very helpful for decent advice and political rants. I try to not be too stupid when I post. If I'm over my head, people usually tell me, and I listen (although I bet I could have put that gas stove in okay).
Half-cocked questions probably deserve half-cocked answers - "It sounds like you need some professional help for what you're trying to do, and by the way your post is worded, lots of it."
Ben, I think one of the testimonials to the overall quality of the Taunton forums is the number of imntelligent people like yourself from all professions and trades who contribute here. I see a good question as valuable as a good answwer, because it becomes the springboard for investigation, discussion, and learning for all of us.Thanks for being here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I'll say it again, we are all amatuers....."
No I'm not!
Ya had to push it too far and make nice/nice with everyone.
I, for one, am not an "amatuer" ....
as a matter a fact ... I'm quite the "Professional" remodeling contractor.
I know exactly what is and isn't with in the scope of my expertise, and when a customer asks for work beyond my scope of expertise, I call in an expert in that field. And charge accordingly. Nothing "amatuer" on my job sites at all.
Amatuer results are usually the end result of someone trying to buy/build something they can't yet afford.
I am a highly skilled, highly trained and highly educated remodeling professional, and I won't lower myself and say any less to make all the diy'er in the world feel good about themselves.
I'm also expensive, but I'm slow!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yup.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
Edited 5/31/2005 7:13 pm ET by Gunner
Ars longis, vitae brevis.....
'Remodel in a day' homeowners have been smoking crack through these things...
"I can't say I was ever lost, but I was bewildered once for three days."
it's all greek to me ...
or latin ...
or .. uh ... I dunno?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
What Buck would say :>)
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I can say the greek alphabet 3 times fast before the match burns my fingers ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Art (for which here substitute skill, knowledge) is long (large), life is short....hence, we are all amatuers, more to learn....
blah, blah, blah ...
this is my job. I'm a professional.
I'm an artist too ... so sometimes I'm a professional artist.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Ok, OK.....I'm a professional too (now going to become a professional diabetes caregiver...(thanks for the post re your neice BTW)....I was just trying to get all those p$$$d off people off my back by pointing out that we can all learn, even us old dogs....it ain't the suit on the man, it's the man in the suit....
Some of the post, I'm sure including some of mine, may fall into the category you describe. But having been a carpenter for over 20 years I know alot of stuff, but not everything. Occaisonally as I take on something new, that I have never done before I will post questions on this forum. Before Breaktime existed I would ask another tradesman in that field. Maybe someone has used a router for years, but not in a particular way or for a specific task. I hear what you are saying, but it's kind of like the First Amendment, you got to be careful about setting a precedent. There is no dumb question, repetitive maybe.
LOL, Twenty years is just about when you really start to understand what questions to ask...;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
In the time that I have using this site, I have gained alot of information and I have seen alot of B.S. go through here too. So of the replys that I have received to my questions have been very helpful and appreciated, while others have been insulting and inaccurate. I guess that I have to take the bad with the good.
I have felt that I was treated as a weekend warrior, not a fellow tradesmen. I maynot be able to articulate as well as others, but I have constructions skills that do put me in the same league as other fine home builders, just not as a general contractor. My skills are cabinetry, furniture and architectural woodworking. But I have done alittle of everything else, so my desire to learn is why I am here. So I guess, to some of you, that I am an amatuer. So, does that mean that I don't belong here?
The reason I chose to build our home instead of hiring out the whole thing was that where I live now, some of the skill levels of the finish trades is questionable. I also am dealing with some major disabilities and we could not afford to pay for the whole job out of pocket, and I managed to slowwwwly work through the project on my time/health. If I was able to work full time, then that would have been better off letting someone else do 90% of the work
I have asked questions about electrical, plumbing, heating, framing, and others. I even posted a preliminary floorplan and asked for a critique. It came back with some really good suggestions. We wound up redesigning the home and are very happy with the way it came out. I have also posted about some framing issues where the walls were out anywhere from a 1/4" to 3/4" in 8'. Some wall heights were 9-15' high so this multiplied the error(s). Basically, I was told by some to quit my bellyaching and live with it... The contractor we used for foundation/framing basically screwed us on cost/materials/time completion. This was confirmed by other local contractors that we have met since the beginning/completion of our project.
Boss Hog recently gave me input on modifing some trusses so as to put in a staircase. His comments were accurate and conflicted what the trusss company guy stated. When I responded back to the truss guy, he came up with another solution that addressed my problem. In other words, I knew the origional truss origional response was not right, but I sorta asked about the issues that Boss addressed, and I was able to get an appropriate solution. Again, thanks Boss Hog.
There was a recent gal (mommy4x) who asked questions about a home site/plans and I felt she was run out of here(my opinion). Isn't it better to ask now than have to come back here later and ask how to fix the nightmare once it is started? Yea, she's probably an amatuer, but where else is she to get help whith out first spending the big bucks at the wrong time in the wrong place? Isn't this the reason for Taunton producting this site?
I have also seen some pretty off the wall responses that left me scratching my head as to where did that response come from. This is where I feel that some posters are not knowledgeable enough to answer questions. But then again, too many ways to skin a cat, especally in various parts of the country.
And, for all you guys/gals that can't stand being asked about "what I costs to build..." I hate it when a potential customer wants a "ball park price". I know where that is a really clueless question to ask, but I recently asked it because I needed to get some info on a particular Cen.Cal location. What I was hoping to find is wherther or not new "custom" home contrction was running around the same cost as 'used homes" or new track construction, let alone whether or not we could afford a home in these areas. Two years ago, where I live now, you could have a new home built on your lot for the same price or less(yes, that is for less) that what used homes were selling for. I might need to move and some of the local realestate agents have given alot of conflicting price swings. Hopefully getting feedback from some of the local Breaktimers will help us with our research. So why not ask and hopefully I get a helpful response.
I think that the whole problem is that some forget that this site is owned by Taunton and it is here to service the people who support their magazines. It's a marketing tool for them and even for us, too. Not, that I agree with everything they do, but it is my decision to wheter I chose to stay or find another place to get/give help.
As for the ones who have help me and others in my shoes, thank you for taking your time from your family, friends, and business to give the little guys/amatuers that much needed helping hand.
Enough rambling...
Edited 5/31/2005 1:15 pm ET by migraine
I'd likje to respond to some of your good points.BTW, I don't know if I ever noticed that you were more of a DIY. You've been a regular so long and seem knowledgeable enough that I guess you fit into the regular box in my mind...I'm sure I have had a hand in making a couple of folks feel more than welcome and that I have played a hand in making a couple feel far less than welcome. I don't apologize for either, but I will explainfg from my POV. there are people who come in asking for advice and then get a snotty attitude as soon as they find out that the answer is not what they were looking for. They don't deserve time or tact, IMO. If they already have their minds made up, they don't need to pollute the forum substantiating false hopes and mythological theories. That just leaves the impression that their pet ideas are good ones, a hundred other people around the country perpetuate the myths and the industry as a whole and the reputation of this site for good advice goes downhill. They are the equivalent of eleven year old kids giving each other advice on sex, and this forum has more integrity than that.Then there are the DIYs who have a year or two of occasional experience and come into the forum handing out their own form of advice as though it were state of the art and start arguments when they barely know what they are talking about. They are even worse and deseerve to be run off before they hurt someone. They are the equivalent of the person who has read two books with medical informatioin in them and suddenly spout off as though they have a medical degree from Harvard and have served a residency at the Mayo.Then, there are those who like myself, have a fair amt of experience and knowledge, but sometimes get a bit cranky and fail to write tactfully for those who are truuly seeking help and don't know how to phrase the questions. My replies are sometimes too short, and can come across as curt. For that, I am sorry to all who might have been offended. I'll try to think a minute before posting to a newbie and consider the impact of the way I approach them...I recently saw a similar thread at JLC. I rarely post there anymore because I was chastised for helping the people they do not want at that forum. I also avoid some of those other DIY forums because there do seem to be too many of the sort of folks who don't know which end of a hammer to hit the nail withI think BT has a fine balance
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hi, My Name is Ron and Im a DIY'er :>)
I think what got me interested in home repair was my first home. I then took my friends advice and took some classes at the local trade school. framing, residential electrical wiring, w/wing, cab making, finish and rough plumbing for example...
I know my limitations...
been doing for sometime now
but unlike Norm, and the guy from hometime..still cant build a house/addition in a 1/2 hr show..:>)
Caution: This message may contain "For Official Use Only" (FOUO) or other "sensitive information" is not intended for non-official disclosure. Do not disseminate this message, except to persons who require it for official Breaktime purposes, without the approval of the individual originating this message or other authorized official of the Taunton University. If you received this message in error, please delete it.
Hi Ron - I'm apro - definitely not an amateur, but I still can't build an addition to a dog house in a half hour...LOL
But theen I charge a two hour minimumWelcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 5/31/2005 3:51 pm ET by piffin
seriously Pif..
The DIY trend started after WW2 with the baby boomers..then after the next gen got into business careers they got away from it..then the HD with the "You cant do it and we can show you how" adds and the ask our experts...
then hometime with building large projects inna 1/2 hour show and the guy measuring and always saying..perfect.. and never making a mistake and showing how to work his way outta mistake really started it then with the diy channel ect..
Who can blame the average HO thinking he can do it but then when He gets into trouble..call the pro....
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my signature says it allexcept for cloud, cause he turned signatures off
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
"...my signature says it all."
Care to translate your signature into English for those of use who don't understand what it says?-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
willing, but unable
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Migraine,
>>. It's a marketing tool for them and even for us, too.
Amen.
Every post I make outside of the Tavern is reread before posting with the idea that a potential client will see it.
I want that person to have every reason to call me and no reason not to call.
SamT
Being an amateur myself, I find myself a bit irritated by this post. Here's my background: My folks built their own house, starting when I was around 12: I helped as I could. I painted houses for 10 years in summers (I'm an English teacher now). I worked as a carpenter for one summer, but was with a timber framer, which meant I learned a bunch of specific skills and little standard carpentry. Since then I've done thousands of dollars of work on two old houses my wife and I have owned. This summer, I'm building my own house with my father's help, and frankly, I about pass out from terror when I think much beyond the day to day work. Hiring professionals isn't an option because we'll never be able to afford the house if we do (I'm hiring an electrician and plumber, or course).
The point is this: I'm an English teacher. Reading isn't my problem. My problem is that I have questions that my framing books don't answer. For instance, we have a shed dormer that runs the length of the house in one of our plans, but want to step it back about two feet from the wall. This raises all sorts of structural issues that might have obvious solutions, but I can't find anything about the problem in my books. Hence, a post. As a relative rookie, I don't know whether my questions are stupid or not.
For my part, I promise only to post when I can't find the information I need in my books.
And by the way, does anyone remember the Chris Berman line from the old ESPN ads? "There are no stupid questions, there are only stupid people who ASK questions."
Well thanks anyway all of you for being tolerant - which BTers usually are more than.
Two things I enjoy tend to happen when someone asks a question as dumb as I can come up with:
1) Good folk of all experience levels jump in to answer the questions _not_ asked, anticipating what can/will go wrong and providing important safety tips. We'll never know how many injuries have been prevented through 'vicarious' learning from BT.
2) The conversation, more often than not, moves to a higher level (subtle one-upsmanship? - s'okay by me) and sooner or later we'll read pros complimenting each other on great ideas, innovations for efficiency and better outcomes, and sometimes pure art.
2) The conversation, more often than not, moves to a higher level (subtle one-upsmanship? - s'okay by me) and sooner or later we'll read pros complimenting each other on great ideas, innovations for efficiency and better outcomes, and sometimes pure art.
I'm a pro, but I've learned a lot more here than I've taught.
Hey Mister Sushi, you forgot to cook my fish.
"Am I dead or alive? What's this? Linoleum? I must be in hell." -The Salton Sea
You just can not beat years of experience, however egotism gets into the way of some professionals in various trades. They think they know it all, somewhere in their profession they gave up on continued education in their chosen field and become selfish with their hard earned knowledge and experience that they have acquired over the years. They seem to take great joy belittling on this site the questions and problems of others.
There are just to many people in the world with such an attitude. what a better place this site would be if we would just be helpful to one another in a kind way like most of the participants are to each other on this BEST of building sites.
God bless all you helpful ones out there and forgive the egotists.
Virginbuild
"however egotism gets into the way of some professionals in various trades. They think they know it all, somewhere in their profession they gave up on continued education in their chosen field and become selfish with their hard earned knowledge"
You can say that about alot of tradesman, but I don't see how it could possibly apply to anyone here. The mere fact that they are here, proves they are trying to learn something, or at the vary least share some kind of knowledge.
Where's that smiley face with the clapping hands when you need him?
Guuunnnneeeer!
"I can't say I was ever lost, but I was bewildered once for three days."
Personally, I see nothing wrong with the original thread. At least in bringing the topic up for discussion. I didn;t see the need fr you to edit, but you have the hammer.
I suppose I could throw out that this forum was at its best back when it was me and 21 other users. Good discussions with good information passed along.
This place sure has changed over the years, and where back then you could be everything to everybody, you really can't today. Too many posts, to many threads, to many workds to keep up with.
Today I pick and choose my replies. More often then not I pass over many threads I would have replied to in the past. Less is more, and more means less.
I find my reaction to Breaktime to be cyclical. Some times I love it, visit frequently, and reply a lot...other times I'll simply read without replying for several days.
Amateurs and DIYs?
Always welcome. Many topics brought up by DIYs result in old or simple tpoics being revisited, with new techniques being passed along, new materials being used, or old materials being used in a new way. Cross-flow of new ideas is always welcome.
The best thing to do to if one doesn't want to see what's on this forum is to look the other way. Granted, some naive questions make it on the forum, but I'd rather have someone ask a question than have them do damage to themselves of their family through ignorance.
People seeking a quality job I'm all for helping. Lazy-arse posters...like the guy who repeatedly emailed me a single-sentence question..."Tell me the best way to paint"...can go away and indeed do a bit of research. THEN come back and ask "What's your favorite paintbrush for cutting in" or "Would alkyd or latex be better for bookshelves".
I do have to say that I enjoy this place more now that Tavern threads aren't coming up on my introductory thread list in the left window. Despite numerous invitations from others, I doubt if I'll ever venture across the alley and head back into the Tavern. Too many drunks and fools.
Breaktime...it's a good thing.
Usually.
Hey Mongo..... basically, couldn't agree more. I've been taking big breaks from Breaktime....most of this year in fact (although there seems to be another guy posting here under the name Adrian too, just without my identifier at the bottom). Have a little time now, so I've been checking in.
I also haven't signed up for the Tavern, and won't, for the same reasons as you....and have been enjoying it more. Tempted to say " but not like the old days", but I know there were more than 22 people here when I showed up. Must have been at least 30.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Good to see your name again.
The other Adrian faked me out. I clicked on his name and emailed him, thinking I was emailing you. Foud the error of my ways when he got ticked off, then I realized his post that I linked through was missing just what you mentioned...the
cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
tag line.
Hope all is well in your neck 'o the world.
Things are great here......hope it's the same in your world.
(he got ticked off? whoa....)cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I remember the good old days also Mongo,
I especially remember that since we were mostly " dumb tradesmen" nobody razzed us if we effen mis-spelled "amateur".
But then they hung up the "no smoking" sign and turned this place into a fern bar.
Stephen
"ferm bar"...I like that.<g>
I've heard good buzz about your roofing article. I look forward to the read. If my issue ever shows...
Ok, a contest.
What is it?
View Image
"I can't say I was ever lost, but I was bewildered once for three days."
Looks like a tube from knob and tube wiring.
green carpet.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
While it is definitely sexually suggestive, I think it has a history of being connected to another kind of spark.I'll gues an annode from an olde battery
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I believe Jim is the first one with the correct answer.It is an electrical insulator.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
That's EASY! The tube of 'Knob and Tube', or K&T as we say over in the Old House Journal forum. Pulled another one out of the floor joists a couple days ago.
knob & tube...uh well...tube.
It's also an excellent knife sharpener.
I can't find the crack in that pipe
Think that is what the original post refered to on that pic.