A guy that frames for me studies the plans before starting, then pics the corner that makes most sense for his “zero x – zero y” point.
From that point, if you were to lay a 16″ x 16″ grid over the plans, that’s where all the studs will be centered, no matter what, interior and exterior walls.
This gets a little wierd, you see, when walls end at corners “off layout,” because it means that the next wall out will begin “off” also.
You can look all the way through the frameup, through any stud bay (barring corners or king/jack sets being in the way.)
Overboard?
Replies
Not at all. Go from floor to floor and the sheet layout will line up, as well as the vertical load paths.
For instance, on the one we are doing, I tiold the guys I want these two side walls all laid out from these two corners coming back, and this end wall lay out from center. Bad weather distracted guy who laid second story out from end instead of center, so when sheathing runs across floor to floor, we have a couple stitch blocks to put in.
On my ladt one, the plumbers were VERY happy to see studs and floor bays line up
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Gene, yes, it may very well be anal!
This gets a little wierd, you see, when walls end at corners "off layout," because it means that the next wall out will begin "off" also.
I don't know what that statement means, but I think you've identified something that doesnt make sense.
I will admit that in my early days, I was anal like your framer. I used to like to stand in one room and look all the way through the house...knowing all the studs were lined up.
In my older days, I finally figured it out that I was being wasteful. There are times to maintain the orderly layout and there are times to abandon it. For instance, I routinely see large two story walls framed with long old growth 2 x 6's. Sometimes there is only 9 or ten inches between the multiple king posts of the stacked windows. And what do I sometimes see? Yep, you got it...they put a layout stud in the 10" bay!
I teach my guys that there are important reasons for every part in the house and its important to know and understand the function of each. IF they can learn the whats and why, they can make intelligent decisions on every part. IF the whats and whys are too complicated for their intellect, they end up putting expensive studs in ten inch bays "because the stud lands on a 16'' layout mark!".
Our resources are too precious to be wasted on someone's anality.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
if i missed somthing, which i certantly may have, then please correct me. My intention isnt to challenge you, but rather to learn..you would interrupt the 16" oc layout?? what about the sheetrock and the sheathing? I'm assuming that that break in the stud layout is only ok because its in the middle of the 48" centers (for ply and sheathing) but it still seems inapropriate to break the layout..what am i missing?______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
Gene,
I had a tough time making sense out of your post, Piffin cleared it up a bit.
Front wall, everything lines up vertically, back wall the same only offset by 1.5" for center joist lap.
End (gable) walls should probably mirror each other............ok, we're talking a simple box here.
I think it's good that the framer is looking that far ahead. he is already planning in his head.
Seeing as Blue is here, and after reading all those dropped hip posts.........Blue, in a house with a hip roof, does every rafter fall ontop of or right next to a stud??
That's a layout challenge, how do you address it?
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Eric, in a house with a hip roof, there is no compelling reason to have a rafter fall over or next to a stud. On every hip roof that we do, the truss company sends out the hip package on 24" layouts. Since the studs are on 16" layouts, it's impossible to maintain that criteria, unless the studs also go on 24 or 12" layouts.
If there is some compelling reason to layout the studs so they land under or next to the rafter layouts, a thinking carpenter would accomodate that need.
The question of co-ordinating stud and rafter layouts is one of those areas that should be rethought out to coordinate regarding sheathing layout. By thinking ahead, waste can be eliminated on both walls and roof by eliminating odd spans.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Forget about the trusses.......stick frame hip, simple rectangle building, 30x45.
You're gonna tellme it's ok to have rafters fall in the middle of a stud bay?
That's not right in my book, and I've dealt with BI who didn't thinks so either.
Seems I remember reading a framing book, back in the day, about framing a structure with a hip roof, and taking the layout into consideration very early on.
While the load of a single rafter may be minimal, the paths should all line up from the foundation to the rafter.
Whadya think?
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I'm pretty sure if all your framing members line up vertically code allows joist/stud/rafter spacing 19.2o.c. and single top plates on walls. That would certainly save quite a bit of materials if that's what you want to do.
Careful layout like what Gene described makes the job of every sub way easier. I'd bet that someone who thought that carefully would layout to avoid joists and studs centered on bathtubs to save the plumber grief instead of moaning when plumber cuts framing to put in drains and valves (he pretty much has to put that stuff in the center, the framer COULD recognize that and shift his layout to accomodate).
That framer MIGHT be going overboard, Gene. But I wouldn't assume it based on what you posted. Sounds like someone who knows his stuff and cares about what he's doing. Lord knows, we can use all of those people we can find - in whatever walk of life they choose.
You are right there Jim. To help the plumber you should always center the stud bay on ####a shower/tub valve and center the joist bay on a toilet. If that is not possible with the floor joists then I will do the head off myself to avoid the plumber with the chainsaw. When I was young and dumb it took an old plumber to set me straight.
I can't see what the problem is with a hip roof to not stack the rafters on the studs. Sometimes a minor calculation is in order to adjust the offset but it should be no problem for a pro. It is a big help for the plumber when running his vents to have the rafters stack.. Besides ...It just looks right. I hate it when things don't look right. On a hip that would be a gable otherwise laid out from the center, then the rafters sometimes don't stack. Is that what you mean? Still... I like exposed tails. It is my current style, so I lay out for opposite jacks at the hips that do stack on the studs. It takes a little thinking ahead but hey....It's a thinking man's job.. right?
Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
You're gonna tellme it's ok to have rafters fall in the middle of a stud bay?
I believe the code allows for this (IRC and UBC). As soon as you get a heavy snow load that changes. Studs have to stack as soon as you start stacking floors though. Two story and up.
Eric, I wouldn't give two seconds to stacking a hip roof over the studs. Like I said, there isn't any compelling reason.
It might look cool, but its not stronger...or maybe I should say that there isn't any evidence on record of a 3' jack crushing through a stud bay.
Again, if there is some compelling reason, then I'd simply put the studs under the jacks, but I've never worked on any house, in my 30 years, that required that.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Canadian Building Code, (which I think is pretty conservative), doesn't require stacking unless you eliminate top plate. Makes sense to me. In my 30-odd years of renos, and uncovering hundreds of what would be serious code violations today, I don't think I've ever seen a structural collapse or even a real problem. A few twists and out of squares but not much worse than the usual production framer throws at any finishing carp on new construction. All those on this forum are exempt from any implication I may may be implying.What I have seen mostly, is problems with ill built foundations. These lead to leaning walls and sagging porches in old houses.Carps in the old days seemed to not understand the need for good footings/pilings, especially on porches.An old bud, a carpenter, used to have a good reply to people that said "They don't build them like that any more!""Nope, we have building codes to protect people now"Rambled too long. Didn't mean to offend anybody. Honest!!Alan
stacking is only required if you go to Value Engineering and start eliminating double plates....
other that carrying load paths , there is no reason to stack with a double plate, and i 've been reading codes since '73...
as to gene's original question....if that's the way the guy does it... that 's the way he does it..
me... i'm always moving things ... modifying the design on the fly.... usually without getting into too much trouble... occasionally... i manage an oops or twoMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm with you on the stacking issue, Mike. Nobody in the "must stack roof members over wall studs" camp seemed to take issue with those 24 o-c rafters that didn't hit over studs. They just seemed to take pride that every four feet one did.
But what I should have made more clear up front is the way a single-corner zero plays on a plan where the walls take bumps out, bumps in, and where none of the corners of bumps are hitting on the sixteen grid.
Consider a simple two story box with a one story room sticking out the middle of the back, and the room's corners don't fall on the big house layout lines.
Why not start a new layout on the bumpout, so we can sheath with 4s and 8s from the corner?
And my guy that's anal about sticking to it? Last job he did for me, he treated the corner pick as a coin toss, thought it didn't matter, so he went west to east. Turned out two toilets and a bathtub all had their drains sitting at or too close to joist locations, and he had to head off. The other way, and there would have been no heading.
What makes most sense to me is a framing layout that saves lumber, facilitates mechanical stacks and chases and minimizes sheathing cuts.
What makes most sense to me is a framing layout that saves lumber, facilitates mechanical stacks and chases and minimizes sheathing cuts.
Gene, that's what makes sense to me and that's what I do. I evaluate every wall for precisely all those things, then make the most efficient choices in as many aspects as I can accomodate.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Eric, in a house with a hip roof, there is no compelling reason to have a rafter fall over or next to a stud. On every hip roof that we do, the truss company sends out the hip package on 24" layouts. Since the studs are on 16" layouts, it's impossible to maintain that criteria, unless the studs also go on 24 or 12" layouts.
I couldn't agree with you more. I don't alter layout for a hip roof unless the engineer tells me to. I have never had an inspector say anything and the code is clear. Now, if I had heavy snow loads, I would stack, but I don't.
The thing about the other trades doesn't come into play on outside walls at the roof. I've asked our plumbers and heating guys and they say not to worry about it.
I'm with you about not putting in studs close to the king stud. Unless it falls on layout for sheathing (we have seismic issues to deal with), I leave it out.
I couldn't agree with you more. I don't alter layout for a hip roof unless the engineer tells me to. I have never had an inspector say anything and the code is clear. Now, if I had heavy snow loads, I would stack, but I don't.
The engineers require us to put a stud under the girders. Only the girders. I don't believe snow loads are a factor either. I've never had a discussion about snow loads, hurricanes, earthquakes etc here, so obviously it isn't tops on our lists of concerns. Besides, the last 200 roof systems that I have put on with hip are all trussed, 24" oc.
TIm, it seems that we are on the same page here.
The thing about the other trades doesn't come into play on outside walls at the roof. I've asked our plumbers and heating guys and they say not to worry about it.
Of course there isn't anything to worry about. The plumbers only cut a 3'' hole...it's impossible to not find a spot for a 3'' hole! The heating guys don't run heats up the outside walls...especially into roof systems! Occasionally, they run something up an exterior wall into the second floor, but of course, on those walls everything stacks!
I'm with you about not putting in studs close to the king stud. Unless it falls on layout for sheathing (we have seismic issues to deal with), I leave it out.
Even in a seismic zone, I wouldn't put a stud inside a 10'' bay. Instead, I'd just cut the plywood back (half on the king stud).
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
When I get the engineering for the next house, I'll post some of the drawings that outline what we have to do. It's rather interesting.
That will be good...we can have some fun figuring out how to table frame yours!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Double top plates will make all your stacking worries go away.
Try floors framed with TJIs at 19.2" oc, then exterior walls at 24" oc, interior walls framed 16" oc, topped with a stick-framed roof with rafters 16" oc.
It definitely makes sense to watch where the mechanical runs are and stack the bays accordingly where required, but when it somes to exterior walls, the only thing in them should be wiring and insulation.
It is just simple code. Studs, joists and rafters all have to stack. If you stack a 2'OC rafter system on a 16" layout then at least every 4'OC rafter should stack on a stud. Other tradesmen will thank you. Electricians do not want to drill through nails and plumbers can be assured that they can have a straight run from the foundation to the roof. Part of being a real tradesman is taking care of the other trades and not making more unnecessary work for them. Here in earthquake country we have to shear the whole shell. I would put a layout stud in a ten inch bay if it was on the 4' exterior layout. I might skip it if it was on the 16" or 32" layout.
Most framers start at one end of the house. The outside walls are laid out from the outside corner to accommodate sheathing. Joists, rafters, second floors all start from the same end so they line up. Bearing partitions are laid out to match. Interior partitions are laid out to accommodate drywall, they start from the inside of the exterior walls, strapping on the ceiling is done the same so these line up also. If interior partitions run the same direction as the exterior framing, you can lay them out to match but few framers bother.
The key is to do all layout from the same outside corner for each floor. I went to one house where the framer started from the outside corner on the first floor but started from the inside of the gable wall for the second floor. He never noticed that the first floor windows did not line up with the second floor windows. He framed the gable first and never thought to move his tape to the outside. Since the roof was on and the siding, the owner lived with the difference but lightened the framers wallet a bit.
If your floor joists are 12" OC, the walls 24" OC, the trusses 19.2 OC and the interior partitions 16" OC, everything only lines up at the eight foot mark. In a conventional house, framers know that they are going to cut the plates an increment of 16". Each additional set of plates in a run will also be an increment of 16", until the last set, which is cut to the length of the wall, wherever it ends. A good cut man can prep and layout the plates right on the horses without stepping on the platform. Same with headers, sills, trimmers, jacks, etc. Once you have your system worked out, framing goes fast. It's just repetition.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
What''s strange about that, except that it requires more understanding and planning up front?