IRC2006 says that in my area of PA I have to place anchor bolts in my 12 course 10″ concrete block basement walls 9″ o.c. and I have to anchor EVERY joist to an anchor bolt with a 1/4″ steel angle bolted to the joist.
Is anyone else running into this? It was all rumor here until a code official confirmed it early this week at a conference updating us on the new code. He said that if we could get an architect or engineer to say our basements meet ACI318 or ACI 332 then we should be ok to place bolts at 4′-6′ o.c. which is what we had been doing. I can’t find much helpful info about either of those ACI and the arch i talked to didn’t know much about it either.
Supposedly they are working on getting this repealed but who knows how long that will take.
I can’t believe I haven’t heard anything about this on here. This must be affecting somebody else! Anyone??
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Replies
Wow. Are they expecting earhtquakes or hurricanes in PA? Seems like Michigan code is more like 6' o.c..
Hey! Can we help it that you live in the middle of a swamp, subject to Richter 9 earthquakes, force 10 hurricanes, monster tornadoes, and 90 mph, 100 feet deep floods, with occasional visits by King Kong, Godzilla, and BunBun?
(|;>)
9" hunh? Does that mean your joists have to be 9", 18", or 27" OC? Gonna have to cut 6" off all your sheathing to keep it on 9" layout, yahno?
What does it say about rafters? I betcha gotta use 6 each 4"x1/2" lags thru all the shingles too.
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Haha, it's easy to laugh when you don't have to worry about it isn't it? lol
So what code are you guys working with that this doesn't affect you?
Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
No, I'm not laughing any more. I thought it was just PA.
And I'll be stuck with the 9" limit also due to soil types here.
I'm thinking to try real hard to get a "Strike Plate" prescribed.
A length or 1/4" or 3/8' plate with anchors, set to sit 1 1/2" above the TOC on the side of the wall. Tie wire in place, pour, pull the wire. Butt mudsill to the plate. Outer face of Strike Plate flush with face of wall.
Cost a little more $teel, save hour$.
Y'all realise that this is in response to bad construction techniques, doancha?
Order 3500# mud, add water so's it'll work easier, don't vibrate, "Ain't gonna be no bee holes in that soup," strip the next day so thay can backfill 'cuz ya gotta gitter done so's the framers can get the floor laid so's I can get my draw, and we got anudder 100 of these to do knock out in this tract, no ya idiot helper, don't waste time knocking the snap ties off, they' be covered up an' nobody's gonna see 'em anyway, throw a socked drain that goes nowhere around the foot, whaddaya mean I gota put gravel over it? that's gonna take hours, where's that backhoe? I told him 9 o'clock he's fired, I found a smuck who'll do it cheaper. . . . .
Faster faster cheaper cheaper.
So now everybody has to do the things designed to make the idiots do OK work and we all know the hacks and Wally World companies will find some way to screw this up too.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
sam.. it looks like it's just for CMU walls.. i don't think poured concrete walls got the same treatment.... or am i just not reading it right ?
BTW.. those links that bil hartman provided lead to another link that is very informative
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/articles/showarticle.asp?articleID=2399&position=0&type=article
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/3/2007 10:18 am ET by MikeSmith
Noooo, I think it applies to solid concrete also.
I noticed in the pdf table attached above that the maximum wall height is 9'. Somebody said the slab bottom has to be 18" above the footing. does that mean the the maximum basement ceiling height is 7'? (|;>
It kinda looks like I may not be able to play in the mud ever again. Mommeeee!
Won't know for sure for a while.
But this situation would just mean more money in my pocket, because I was building the biz around the statement "My concrete won't crack" (with a few AOG contingencies) and always doing it better than standard. That's a premium service and costs premium dollars.
I want to build for the "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" crowd, because they are a lot easier to sell to than the "But, it's my life savings" bunch.
And I HATE being forced to do less than the best.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
I think Sam's right about the code applying to CMU & CC.I looked over the section attached in a little more depth, this is a big thing. I'm hoping that VA will adopt new provisions in their UBC to loosen things up. If not, I think we'll have some major changes in the way we build.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
those are requirements to prevent the wall from collapsing due to unbalanced fill
we already have the requirement of foundation bolts 4' OC and 12" from each corner.. that's for wind uplift
that link that i posted talked about poured concrete walls being treated differently than CMU...
and the soil designation is going to have a lot to do with itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I just read the link talking about the ACI document. It looks I have yet another book to buy when we have a basement coming up.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
the aci book is $500 and it has nothing to do with this.
The link posted to the Tools of the Trade site said that ACI 332 was written for residential concrete. ACI 332 is referenced in R404.1 of the IRC 2006 as being the standard.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
aci 332 is 38 pages long, what do you need to know, i have it right herechapter 1 intro
2 requirement for residental concrete
3 material
4 proportioning
5 formwork
6 reinforcement
7 joints and embedded item
8 footing and walls
9 concrete slab
10 curing
11 repair of surface defects
12 references pick your flavor
Hey hey hey don't fight guys.
ACI332 and ACI318 are both mentioned in the code as acceptable alternatives.
ACI332 = Poured concrete foundations
ACI318 = Masonry
I've found very little about ACI318 so far.
It involves poured as much as masonry unfortuneatley.Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
aci 318 there is nothing about masonary in 318. 318 is 443 pages longaci 318- Building code requirement for structutal concrete.mainly 318 is a design for footing, slabs, poured wall and roof,Its mainly load factors.
I'm not up on all the codes here in seattle, but I believe every house we build has to be engineered due to sheer requirements relating to earthquake risk. Every sheer wall on the plan can have a different detail, from the amoun of rebar to to the spacing on the sheeting of the walls.
I mostly frame and it's not on common to be pointing out missing bolts. I almost never see 1/2" bolts, almost exclusively 5/8" with 3" galvi. washers which fits your regs pretty close for my experience of tighest spacing, that being 12". I'm not sure I've even seen 6' spacing except out in the boonies maybe.
Usually between 16" and 4', it is also common to have A35 [simpson clip] plate to rim every 32" down to every 6". Let's not overlook all the hurricane straps poured into the foundation walls in a very liberal manner, to be continued between floors with more staps attaching upper walls and lower walls together.
Did I mention the nailing patterns down to 2 rows of 2"spacing around the parimeter of sheeting, the result of which is the common practice of calling out 3x material for all plywood breaks. i.e. every 4', bottom plates, and two sided sheer walls require the insid sheet to fall on a different stud making two of the three studs in said wall 3xs. You can imagine the number of nails that go int these sheer walls what with nail patterns, hold downs, clips,etc. I spend more time pointing out these almost indecipherable details to my crews than any other aspect of the job I think.
For your sake I hope you guys have it easier and that isn't changing soon.
ryding,
Situation is the same here in Oregon.
---Update---
The ICC meeting determined that the rules would be relaxed a little for the next round of codes. I think we will have to deal with the increased requirements while under IRC 2006, but it looks like there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Whoa, that's a lotta nuts<G>What's with the 6' thing? We've got to go a foot from corners then 60"...and stick one near each joint...still a whole lotta crankin" I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more.
No, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more.
Well, she talks to all the servants
About man and God and law.
Everybody says
She's the brains behind pa.
She's sixty-eight, but she says she's twenty-four.
I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more.
One of the links bb? posted to a BI forum way up above is a long thread and the discussion makes it clear that this applys to poured walls.
Only poured walls, CMUs are exempt!
Some engineer in WA/OR figured worst case for his state, and those specs were accidentally adopted for the whole nation!?!?!?
They reckon it'll get changed at the next adoption meeting. . . in three years!
I guess PA is just the first state to adopt the 2007 codes, cuz the PA reps are raising. . .well you know.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
"One of the links bb? posted to a BI forum way up above is a long thread and the discussion makes it clear that this applys to poured walls.Only poured walls, CMUs are exempt!"You have it backwards.R404 covers both CMU and concrete foundations.And it says that you either have to meet the requiresments of tables in 404 OR the design standards in the ACI references.Now I have not seen or know anything about the ACI, but based the comments in the BI thread the ACI manual for concrete foundations has design standards that allow the more common spacing of the bolts.And that there is apparently no similar standard for CMU foundations..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You have it backwards.
Not my fault, they said it, not me.
Several times.
According to them, CMUs still fall under the 2003 code.
You wanna argue, you gotta find someone with an opinion.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
You did not link to any specific message, only the thread. In fact I can't find a way to link to a given message.But here is one section.JC Littlefield
Contributor - posted 12-08-2006 04:24 PM Profile for JC Littlefield Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post The 2006 IRC allows residential concrete foundations to be designed with ACI 332 without an engineer's stamp. It is prescriptive and even easier to use than the old IRC provisions but more importantly, it contains a lot more practical information. Of course, you have to buy it.http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/articles/showarticle.asp?articleID=2399&position=0&type=article[ 12-08-2006, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: JC Littlefield ] Posts: 70 | From: New England | Registered: Apr 2006 | IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
homebild
Frequent Contributor - posted 12-09-2006 04:25 AM Profile for homebild Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Does ACI 332-04 apply only to poured concrete walls, or does it apply to concrete block walls as well? Posts: 302 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
JC Littlefield
Contributor - posted 12-09-2006 04:53 AM Profile for JC Littlefield Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post ACI 332 is only for poured-in-place concrete residential footings, foundation walls and slabs. Posts: 70 | From: New England | Registered: Apr 2006 | IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
homebild
Frequent Contributor - posted 12-09-2006 07:08 AM Profile for homebild Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Thanks JC.That's what I thought.For regions like mine where the norm is to see concrete block construction, there does not appear to be any option for the construction of a block foundation other than to use the extremely burdensome prescriptive requirements of the 2006 or have an architect/engineer design and stamp an alternative, and likely, simpler foundation plan....
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You did not link to any specific message, only the thread. In fact I can't find a way to link to a given message.
Me neither.
Here's the main menu; http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
Here's the category Building and Residential Codes --Structural Issues
Here's another link to that thread 2006 changes for anchor bolts Pages: 1 2 SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Sam,
Just this morning I talked to a "Dinger" (tract) concrete foundation guy. Told me his company runs 3 crews and poured 1500 foundations last yr. Think they might be having it a bit tougher this coming yr.
These new requirments are gonna be tough .
3 crews and poured 1500 foundations last yr
2 foundations per day per crew.
Do you think any of those 1500 chunks of concrete had the time to cure properly before the backfill hit?
I was on a power plant job where the crew I was on did better than 2 pours a day some days but every one of our pours wore forms and wet burlap for a week after the pour.
Years before I got there, the GC had to rip out a couple hundred yard pour because it cure cracked. We did it right or never did it again for him and this was a 6-9 month job every year or two.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Sam,
Not a chance, they strip early morning after a pour, move on, set up and pour again that afternoon.
Very simple tract foundations, self leveling wet mud, mono pours for an inverted "T" foundation, not even using footing forms, they just "tack" a few pieces of 1/2 ply to the box form stakes and if it leaks just let it slop out etc. etc.
No wish to compete against them on my part. I own all the stuff to do it, have it sitting on the truck ready to go , but why bother.
they just "tack" a few pieces of 1/2 ply to the box form stakes and if it leaks just let it slop out etc. etc. They do it here too. but use a 2x4 as top screen and brick ledge. they might spill out four yards under the 2x
The past couple days ther have been talk of aci. Every year I have to buy the complete set of aci. it doesnt change much. Aci is about concrete, not masonary, not framing but concrete. It basically a very boring book. on how to pour, onhow to design, on how to mix.I keep a copy at home and a copy at work.so if anybody has any question on aci, let me know.
ACI is the American Concrete Institute,. 318 is a very big section that talks about everything. Now ACI is not a code book. Aci is a guideline for concrete construction, Its more on the design of concrete mixes.. But I have the complete set at the office and at home.
I've looked online and can't find anything specific to anchor bolts from either of those ACI sections. I do know ACI 332 deals with concrete and ACI 318 deals with masonry. We do all masonry.
After my last discussion with our usual building inspector he's telling me that if I can get an architect or engineer to put a stamp on section 2308.6 from the 2003 IRC he will accept that. I emailed that to the architect I've talking to about this and i'm awaiting his reply. I can't really see him just throwing his stamp on that and calling it good though. Seems like there would be some liability on his part. But we'll see.Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
Your problem is you don't understand the building code.In general ...Ahe building code makes worst case engineering assumptions and prescribes a solution.An engineer takes the existing situation and determines if the construction will bear the loads.An engineer will always give you a more liberal solution than the code.
"An engineer will always give you a more liberal solution than the code."I've not always found this to be the case. Some guys seem to be more interested in protecting their stamp than being efficient.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Well do you know what it's going to do to the cost of a new home if we have to get an engineer involved with every one? Up until now we have not had to have plans engineered or stamped. There goes the entry level housing market in this area then!Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
An engineer will always give you a more liberal solution than the code.
That statement is simply incorrect.
The "code" has a prescriptive method of doing something. Usually that is the most cost effective way to get the job done. I have never seen an "engineered" solution that was "easier" than the prescriptive method. Granted there are many situations where an engineer is simply the only way to get the job done.
Sorry to take issue with your blanket statement, but Ijust don't buy it.
PS I have a lot of respect for engineers and don't bash them like it seems to be kinda popular on a lot of job sites.
Finding an engineer should be easy enough to do.
Here's a copy of the table from my 2006 IRC. You're right about th 9", that really does seem to be quite a jump from what we're used to.
I would have a talk with the Chief Building Official in your locale.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Note that that document is specifying how many bolts must be present to support the foundation walls against soil pressure, not how many must be present to keep the house in place.Presumably some other scheme such as a steel angle along the top of the wall could be used instead.Curious, though, that they don't specify (in that chart, at least) the construction of the wall -- would make a difference if block, reenforced block, poured concrete, etc. Nor do they make any statement about the structure on top and its ability to resist thrust.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
They mentioned this and several other unbelievable things with foundations at my continuing ed class this year.
I don't do any new construction, just minor remodeling - so I didn't pay real close attention, but, I do recall it was huge change from current code.
Seem to remember something about lots of blocking being required.
Another one was that they wanted the poured concrete floor to be like 18" or something above the footer.
Radical stuff, will have to see if I can find some of the info they gave me and post it here.
that 18 inches above natural gound so when it rains the water runs away from the slab instead of toward it. that is a very common code item
not sure we are talking about the same thing.
Looked up the informatin from class. It states that "Top of footing shall be 16" below the bottom of the concrete floor slab minimum."
Seems to me that the basement slabs around here are currently just poured on top of the footing.
yes what they are saying is, the footing needs to be in natural soil, but the slab needs 18 inches above natural soil because of rain water. so you get around this by building a soil pad 18 above natural and then pouring a monolithic slab. that where the footer be turned down, But.... if you dont do a mono. then the footer have to be deep with a stem wall. three course of block.The point I was making is, the 18 is nothing new, its very common. It has some to do with freeze thaw too. In the south it never freezes at all but we still have a 18 inch footing deep
What is the definiton of a "Supported Foundation Wall"?
What is holding all the courses of block together? In my area we have to core fill with 1 #8 rebar every 6 feet. Anchor bolts within 12" of every corner and no more that 6' apart for the rest. With a whole lot less bolts than that the top course of block would crack loose.
It sounds like your building to the 2003 code which is how we had been doing it.
We actually put #5 rebar, concrete, and an anchor bolt every 4' o.c. and then yes we had to make sure that each sill plate had two bolts in it, within 12" from the ends, etc...Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
What I have to wonder is if this is really going to be enforced, or was it just some guy who recently read the book and had to make a big showing for his audience. If they are going to enforce it and similar stuff, it sounds like PA has done a 180. Is it not true that PA had no state wide code as little as 8 years ago? Sounds like they are having some growing pains. Or maybe little Hitler is in charge at your county/city/whatever? There is a town near here that had a guy like that, and builders would routinely have an upcharge for building in that jurisdiction. Since then he has left and another BI told me "Oh him.... He wasn't very well liked" :-)
Most states modify model codes into something that is a bit more reasonable for the specific location and building environment. Here, builders as well as engineers, architects (and maybe even politicians and lawyers) sit on the code board. I notice that even when we get a new code, a lot of the old amendments are retained. These modifications take time though. They are still trying to get the IRC 2003 ratified. :-)
In most of the townships we build in we can use any inspector we want. So of course we stay with the same guy. So I called him and asked him about this and at he said he had never heard of this and had to check with his boss. He checked and got back to me saying that yes it went through and unfortuneately they had to enforce it. I can understand that from liability reasons. They can't pick and choose what parts of the code to enforce and not enforce. So yes it is going to be enforced until 1. it gets repealed or 2. we get our basements stamped by engineers.
Your right we never had a code in PA until I believe it was 02-03 somewhere in there. And this is the first problem I've had with any of it.Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
This is a forum on on the codes.http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiThis issue is being discussed inhttp://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001535http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001658.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I am simply blown away by this change... wow!
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Texas Windstorm Code for Zone 1 on the water is 4' O.C. and no further that 18" from a corner. Monolithic slab / 5/8" galvinized anchor bolts in concrete / 2" washer / galvinized nut
Another good reason to move to TX then!Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.