The last few days I have become less of a physical hermit and more of a social animal by going to talk to some neighbors that were in homes built in the first phase of construction.
One neighbor has a water infiltration problem that wasn’t revealing itself at the drywall. Water coming off of the roof and running into a section of brick wall had NO flashing at all. The brick simply absorbed the water on every rainfall.
What rain waters did not immediately seep into the brick and mortar flowed naturally off the shingles and into a gutter, which was insufficient to handle the volume of water, overflowed, and onto and behind a fascia board that hid a nice whopping gap of no-brick.
This gap literally allowed water to get into the air gap in volume, inundated the OSB sheathing and insulation. Visual appearance only showed wet brick until you exposed the wall from inside, which a) revealed soaking insulation, and b) water-saturated OSB that you could push your finger through.
And none of what I have said is even hitting on the worse part yet. Mutual neighbors thought this one neighbor were hypochondriacs because they said they were always sick, ALL OF THE TIME. Turns out the was black mold growing in the walls from the continuously saturated conditions.
The wife now has asthma, and during the war between homeowner insurance company and builder insurance company they were forced out of the house for three weeks while the builder scrambled to repair the problem. All over a two foot section of missing flashing and $3 in brick behind the fascia board.
At one point the builder’s henchman tried to blame gutters needing to be cleaned, but a bedroom window from above showed the gutters to be clean–builder clear-cut the land of all trees. And the builder’s insurance company not only hasn’t paid for the bills of keeping the homeowner out of their home for three weeks, the repair to the brick facade looks like a blind monkey did the work.
And her I thought I was an anomaly in worse case scenarios with my chronic problem due to missing through-flashing allowing a failed second story bedroom window sill failure to allow water to get into the downstairs study ceiling. My neighbors now have medical grade air cleaners with built in UV lamps to kill airborne mold.
And this wasn’t the only neighbor I spoke with in the past two days. Another neighbor found that the incorrectly installed chimney cap allowed water to get into the chimney studded structure, travel down ~30 feet of wall, dam up in the walls of their family family room it bulged and burst!!
This other neighbor had to have the entire exterior family wall rebuilt along with the chimney structure. And yes, this is another phase-1 home. And now I am hearing the builder may have gone bankrupt, making legal recourse impossible. I did tell the first neighbor above that if he felt like moving forward on a suit I would be happy to add my name to it.
A couple of years ago I did a door to door survey of of phase-1 homeowners and of 32 homes 15 had chronic water problems. That number has now risen by two.
Replies
Here is an aerial picture. I know it is small, but I could not control that. On Sunday, I'll take some pictures and post them. The yellow rectangular outline is the garage wall, which is a shared wall with the dining room and bedroom above.
Yes, I would love to take pics today, but a) Hooters has the girls dressed in naughty costumes today (that means a long, long lunch), which leads into b) the Florida-Georgia game.
Valley directing lots of water onto garage roof near front door ... bad idea.
Jeff
Sure, but don't go assuming the builder knew how to build. :)
And while lots of people are buying poorly built development homes, many of the better small contractors are going broke because word of mouth can't seem to compete with highly visible marketing schemes.
HVC, if you are talking about the custom home builders they hardly cater to those buying entry-level to up-and-coming perspective homebuyers. And when the shear number of folks borrowing based on unsound lending in order to cater for questionable, protected, builders was the rage between 1193-2008 in Georgia, the custom builder sought high-dollar projects.
If there are an abundance of "better small contractors" that "are going broke" then they are not opening themselves up in the way snake oil artists have in the past 10-12 years in my area. I rationalize this as there are extreme few better small contractors that are native to this area and the transient contractors have moved on, or continue to snake oil.
I am constantly inundated with sandwich bags of pebbles and business cards, flyers, taped business cards, etc., on my driveway, sidewalk, front yard, and mailbox for those seeking services opportunities, but not a single one of them was willing to be proactive with references, business license number, etc., etc., etc.,
If the better small contractors are sticking with word of mouth then those mouths they've done good service with are small, lethargic, and hardly in my county.
I just about every market, there are a handful of really good builders and not just at the high end.Here there are about 30 local builders, but only 3-4 good ones. The good builders I know will build any size home you want and as simple as you want. There will always be some conscientious builders among the blow and go contractors and the hacks.To find them here, you would get to know a few good subs and ask who the best builders are. Many of the showy McMansions are poorly built and some of the small cottages are well crafted. With credit tight and energy costs to continue rising, I expect quality, detail oriented builders to get a larger share of the feeble housing market. Just a few thoughts,Bass
While I can appreciate how is was, is, and probably will continue to be the cases on finding ethical builders in various parts of the country, it just isn't the case in Atlanta.
My best advise to the ingressed population is to let's raze Atlanta one more time and while we rebuild out crappy homes better, we can also straighten out the roads.
Nuke,Even from halfway across the country, I can disagree with you. It really is all about the classic bell curve. Some of what is built is ####, most mediocre, and maybe 5-10% is excellent.To say that there are no good builders in Atlanta or any other part of the country is laughable. To say that they are a small minority is a given.There are fine people everywhere, even in Atlanta.Bass
I didn't say there were any good builders in At;anta. I said if there were any good builders that they are extremely few, working on custom construction, and for projects well outside of my budget for c.200 (when I bought), and even up until the end of 2008.
I'll bet you'd find a movie studio that would be willing to pay to film it burning.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
What a lot of nonsense. I wonder why you even began this thread. Surely you didn't expect a lot of sympathy for you or your neighbors, or did you?
We who are small contractors do have to make better efforts to get our happy clients to promote our businesses for us. BUT you and other home buyers have to get a clue about how mass marketing turns your minds into mush, making you vulnerable to traps laid by RE salespeople who have a much greater knowledge of sales psychology than you do...and how to apply it.
A phrase often heard in sales: "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle".
Well said. The American consumer is all about price until they find out what they bought is, unfortunately , what they paid for. Don't get me wrong, there is no excuse,if true and accurate, for what the original poster is describing. The competition in this country is not about who can build it better, but who can build it cheaper.
The typical home buyer buys what he sees and trust in that which he can't see. You would/should never buy a horse without looking at it's teeth.
It may not be applicable to our industry, but the Japanese changed that attitude in the auto industry.
I know,I know, this is a generalization and there are always exceptions.
The Japanese model is one of continual improvement of both the product and the process. The cornerstone of this is "Total Quality Management" and was ironically developed in the USA by Deming and others decades ago.Too many short-sighted American companies ignored this approach, but the Japanese eagerly adopted it. It is a culture where workers and their ideas are respected and quickly implemented.I worked in an American company that attempted to adopt TQM into a top-down American management culture. The result was a bunch of TQM training sessions and meetings, but little actual change in culture, product or process, because the same management was in place. It is a paradigm shift and things have to be really shaken up.
I agree with your assesment of how change is (or isn't) accepted and put in place.
The way I see the problem is that any group of people will adapt to a place pretty quickly.
Once they adapt (which is hard) they will want to settle in and do what is expected of them.
All groups of people form a sort of institutionalized frame of thinking.
I've visited groups of people where the group is dwindling to smaller and smaller numbers.
They want their group to increase but they just don't see what is causing it's decline.
In my experience there is nothing you can do. Just about everyone buys into what is there.
If you bring up what is wrong or what could be right you are labeled as a problem child.
"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
Edited 10/31/2009 3:44 pm by popawheelie
Edited 10/31/2009 3:45 pm by popawheelie
I have to wonder, is this is possible in our industry which is so much more fragmented compared to an industry such as the auto?
Much of it is still a craftsman type industry which I have to confess I have a soft spot for. I guess it's my age.
Mass production has reduced cost which has allowed more folks to own their own home but often, has created the very problem we are discussing.
Like most things in life, there are always trade-offs. Price vs. quality is just one of them.
Interestingly, though, the Japanese couldn't build an IBM 370 knock-off that was reliable. Cheap, but not reliable. Even RCA could do a better job (they just couldn't sell the things).
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
The typical home buyer buys what he sees and trust in that which he can't see. You would/should never buy a horse without looking at it's teeth.
Yes and this board exists to inform and educate in all areas of home construction. That's one of several reasons why complaining about poor workmanship here is a pointless exercise.
I do with what you said. No, not looking for sympathy. Just reporting a problem, which wasn't mine, but worse than mine, and a problem from the same source builder.
Keep in mind if you or I waltz into a Best Buy and get something either on advertisement, based on what a store employee said, etc., there are no protection mechanisms in place. This is not only understood, but why some stop buying from there. Unfortunately, there is no accounting for ignorance in numbers.
BUT, in the area of home construction it is expected there are certain consumer protection mechanisms in place. They failed. They failed the consumers. The majority of builders just took advantage of a) the Best Buy style of customers, and b) the municipality not doing the job.
What home buyer on their first home purchase realizes this enough to play code enforcer? I certainly didn't. And when I thought I had done the right thing, following the advice of the buyer's agent's home inspector, that was a failure, too. I doubt my case was unique, but rather indicative of the culture of [atleast] Atlanta.
in the area of home construction it is expected there are certain consumer protection mechanisms in place.
That's an assumption about protection that many people make because it comforts them to believe it. It's similar to the belief, fostered in us since childhood, that the nice fireman and policeman will be there to protect us in our homes if a fire breaks or a criminal breaks in.
They're all misinformation, something we need to look at carefully as adults so we can make preparations to avoid the worst that can result from those assumptions.
From personal experience: It's much wiser to assume that we'll be on our own when something goes wrong because, for all practical purposes, we always are.
To make good choices about avoiding many problems and being prepared for others we must take the initiative to educate ourselves, independently, through research and direct inquiry.
That's the real value of a messageboard community such as this one.
Edited 11/1/2009 10:41 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Oh, I am not saying I haven't learn a lesson. In fact, as every year goes by I increasing trust less and suspect more. But when a community is affected, not just an individual, society should be assisting in some way, instead of assisting the enemy.
I just heard this builder has also built some shacks in Alabama. Hah! Ruined his rep in GA and now snaking his oil across the Southeast.
Nuke:
On the plus side, building, energy, etc codes are getting stricter. Not sure about GA, but here we get a new release of the code every 3 years or so, which is based on the new releases of the I-codes with a few years delay. A few googles tell me that GA is on 2006 I-codes. From one of those web pages:
Georgia has adopted the following codes with Amendments: 2006 International Building Code, 2006 International Residential Code, 2006 International Fire Code, 2006 International Plumbing Code, 2006 International Mechanical Code, 2006 International Fuel Gas Code, 2008 National Electrical Code, and 2000 International Energy Conservation Code. To complete your 2007 Georgia code you will need the corresponding International Code and the 2007 Georgia Amendments. Amendments for these codes can be downloaded at no charge here.
You can bet that the 2006 IRC is more comprehensive than whatever code was in force in 2000.
Of course it slowly but surely raises the cost of homes. From a builder's perspective the good thing is that all builders must comply making a level playing field. In a way homes are like new cars, new computers, or new cell phones; more technology goes into new models so that hopefully they are higher performance and more durable. A 60s vintage muscle car holds a lot of historic value but let's face - they actually ride and drive like a POS.
You would expect a Y2K house to be weatherproof though.
Matt, state adoption and county adoption are not in sync. I was told this by the county's chief building inspector. And this says nothing about code enforcement. Heck, I may need to get involved in civics as I wonder how much qualification those inspectors are required to prove they have during code change/updates.
>> state adoption and county adoption are not in sync. I was told this by the county's chief building inspector. <<
It surprises me that state laws would be overridden by the county. I don't' know how it is set up in GA though. OTOH, sometimes it is better to go by written official documents vs word of mouth.
Good point about enforcement. During hurricane relief efforts, I was horrified at the lack of enforcement by the hayseed BIs in a county ~100 miles from here (same state).
While it is always in the bck of discussion about my personal situation, I am a lot more concerned about how this is impacting homeowners who bought tracts during the boom and under this BI culture.
I think we have witnessed the mortgage crisis on only one front, because there will undoubtedly be a decade's worth of properties that no one will buy used without some original homeowners lying on the disclosure documents.
I could never sell my home as-is. I'm just not that evil. No where near as evil as the county BI's or the unethical tract builders.
Oh, I am not saying I haven't learn a lesson. In fact, as every year goes by I increasing trust less and suspect more. But when a community is affected, not just an individual, society should be assisting in some way, instead of assisting the enemy.
Laws are guidelines and the enforcers are human, subject to all kinds of influences. Knowing that, we have to use our own best judgement about how to purchase a home.
My dad did a lot of research before buying our small family home in SoCal, over fifty years ago. As an example, he researched how to avoid earthquake damage.
He learned that certain types of foundations in certain soil conditions provided much better protection against damage than other, cheaper methods. So he decided to invest in a tract home which was built with those considerations in mind.
That decision added about twenty percent to the price of the home, over other similar homes within a few miles, but none of the homes in this tract have ever suffered any damage from quakes.
BTW the North Ridge quake was centered about five miles from here. It damaged about eighty percent of the homes within a five miles radius.
Edited 11/2/2009 10:54 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Egg-zakly...
Actually, here even some of the large volume builders are going under. I think Centex sold out to Pulte and locally a some large regional builders like Anderson have gone under. BTW - Anderson had committed to building all Energy Star homes.
Here is the thing though - if there is a US housing quality crisis, the US consumer's constant demand for cheaper bigger homes is fueling the demise in quality. The mentality is why should I buy from 'Jones Brothers builders' when I can buy a cheaper bigger house from 'mega builder'?
Consumers have to be willing to pay for quality - and put their money where their mouth is. Talking about building high quality energy star and green homes, another BTer made a very wise statement to me: "You can only do that on a presale basis".
Producing homes that are weather-proof is just building 101 though.
Our house was built by a local indie (age approximately 60 when we bought our house) who would do 1-2 homes each summer. (I don't know what he did 5 months out of the year when building wasn't practical.) He did about half the houses on this street, and every one has had water problems, badly cracked driveways, and other assorted problems besides. (I joke that his 4' level was off by 1/8" because virtually every opening in the house is off that much.)Frankly, I don't know how a wannabe HO is supposed to identify quality construction. You somehow can't get wind of a builder's true rep until after you've bought the place. You can't go by the size of the builder, or how fancy the construction is. Even fairly knowledgeable folks would have trouble identifying (in advance) many of the problems that have been discussed on this site over the past few years.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
While looking to buy a house about 4 or 5 months ago DW and I found a new house we loved. Nice lot, nice exterior, nice granite, moldings and HWs on interior, etc, etc. We looked at it like 3 times. We loved it, Then, I went back by myself to do a DIY home inspection. I had a license for that maybe 10 years ago but never really pursued it. Anyway, before going for the faux home inspection I made myself a long checklist. Really that is a lot of what HIs do - go over a long checklist. Anyway, without going into detail I was horrified with what I found. DW, I think, actually cried. She made me promise to do some more investigation. One of the things I had found was no housewrap. I called the builder and asked. His answer - a waste of money and not code required. Money could be discussed. Code - it is in the book in black and white. Not verified by local code enforcement officials though. I even called the head BI for that jurisdiction - his response (in a very defensive tone of voice): Do you want to file a formal complaint or what? I declined. And we ran away.
All I can say is buyer beware. Do your homework. Ask experienced (non partisan)builders what is important in your area. Look at houses under construction.
And BTW - take what you read at BT with a grain of salt. Some of this stuff - backpriming interior trim was one of my favorites - is nothing but BS.
Also BTW - how old are these cracked concrete driveways?
backpriming interior trim was one of my favorites >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I missed that one! Pretty funny though!
A friend told me a story, years ago tract building in southern Calif.
After rebar was inspected for driveway pour, crew would pick up the tied rebar grid and carry it down the street to the next house.
Pour driveway and call for next rebar inspection.
Joe H
> Also BTW - how old are these cracked concrete driveways? Well, the house is now 33 years old, but the cracking started within five years, and at less than 10 years we had to have the area in front of the garage mud-jacked several inches. And ours is one of the better drives in the neighborhood.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
How many new home buyers go that far? They wouldn't have a clue what to look for. People see the granite and crown and multi roof lines and think "quality". Some people in my area get an independent home inspection before buying a new home. Still, the inspectors mainly look for immediate and existing problems. You'd never hear one say "the lack of a significant roof overhang is going to help rot out all of your non backprimed fingerjointed exterior trim in few years"...
People see the granite and crown and multi roof lines and think "quality".
Darwin award.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I'm on the receiving end of a number of home inspections. I'd like to say that most of my homes come up pretty clean, but the HI has to find something or he didn't earn his $$$. I get a lot of "2 nail pops in the roof lifting a shingle" and "plug is not removed from the drain pipe in the washer box" (there is a reason I leave those in). With those guys it's is one of those "you never have heard them all" deals though.
One thought about HIs is it might be better to leave the real estate agent out of the loop. They have a term called "deal killers" and they try to avoid those... Deal killer HIs don't get repeat business and the the RE agents all talk I'm sure.
On the house that we bought a few months ago I hired a HI and the guy was very thorough - probably here for 4 hrs. He was my HI class teacher from 10 years back. He still missed some obvious stuff like shower and tub drains that didn't drain because of hair balls, and the master shower tile was about a year over due on a re-caulk. The weird thing though was the RE agent assumed I wouldn't want the reported problems corrected as I obviously was capable of doing it myself and we got such a good deal on the house... :-) I definitely fired off an E-mail on that one... :-) Sometimes it's fun being the customer ;-)
I do quite a bit of home inspection punch lists for sellers. I agree, and often explain it to the HO that the HI has to find something in order to justify his hiring. It is now ingrained into the realestate transaction process so just accept it. Sure, on some older homes they can and do find plenty of safety issues that should be addressed. ON a lot of houses I go into, they miss stuff I would consider important. There is one in my area that has quite a rep. Supposedly he was a small builder who went out of business and has an axe to grind with every house he didn't build himself. I know of at least one builder that leaves "easter eggs" for the HI - e.g. a miswired GFI.
Take down some 80 year old trim and back priming suddenly doesn't seem like such a bad idea.
"Here is the thing though - if there is a US housing quality crisis, the US consumer's constant demand for cheaper bigger homes is fueling the demise in quality. The mentality is why should I buy from 'Jones Brothers builders' when I can buy a cheaper bigger house from 'mega builder'?"
I have heard this before, and someone on this forum years ago blamed me for the condition. I was accused of being the perfect example of how this could take place.
My response at that time was that there were not a single quality builder, custom or tract, in North Georgia that was willing to take on small projects ($250K and under in c.2000 dollars). All the custom builders I could find, which were entremely far and few between were focused on projects 3-10 times what I could borrow.
As a result, these unethical tract builders found their opportunity to flood the market with homes that entry-level buyers could afford, but to the detriment of the industry and society.
"Producing homes that are weather-proof is just building 101 though" Not to the building inspectors that don't inspect homes. Not to a chief building inspector that tells me the bay window area of my study "isn't structural" and "as such doesn't require a roof."
That kind of questionable thinking is systemic, engrained in the building culture, and supported by the ignorant high-transient populations. How can a part of a room with floor joists, floor decking, HVAC register, bottom plate, studs, top plate, headers, and double-hung windows not be considered 'structure'?
That unethical builder should be taken out and shot. Yet this individual (and I have the his name) trains further natives on how to not to their job in order to support those unethical builders.
Edited per moderation by OP. :)
Edited 10/31/2009 11:08 am ET by Nuke
Nuke,Please edit your post to delete all cussing.Cussing even by abbreviation is not acceptable.Thank you...It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out..You are always welcome at Quittintime
Thank you Nuke.Good edit.=0)..It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out..You are always welcome at Quittintime
Sure, but don't go assuming the builder knew how to build. :)
I wouldn't - and that house looks just like my SIL's house - Ryan Homes.
I still can't figure WHY everyone wants all these flippin roof lines. You live IN the home not on the outside....Something to be said for a nice big hip roof over everything, with 24" overhangs to protect windows and doors. Flashing???? none needed unless you poke a chimney up through it....and who wants that aggravation anymore?
We make a few steps forward then giant leaps back.....go old school. Gables and Hips for function...no reverses or valleys=no problems. DUH Am I the only one that doesn't like the look of all these roof lines as though they added on to the house every year for the last 10...and just reversed a gable to cover the bump out? I guess I must.
Yeah, I don't understand the roofline craze. Seems many roofs are designed to fail. One nice thing about the houses on our street is that, in spite of all their other failings, the roofs are mostly conventional, with at most a split that requires butting a lower gable end into a higher eave.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
still can't figure WHY everyone wants all these flippin roof lines.
Because the dame builders who will not buy extra flashing are also not hiring actual architects for the plans.
Instead they get drafters to draw the things as 2d flat plans first, then sort out the rooflines in elevation later. Right now, the trend is for over-steep roofs (no telling why). The drafters then often rely on CAD to "work out" any roof problems, which are then left to the framers in the field to execute. Blind ridges, hanging valleys and the like are then the result. The supers and PM are paid bonuses for completions, so, if a given roofing crew is faster, they will get more work than one that is better.
It's not "want"--it's what's available. Want to move to a given subdiv as it's near work? you only get to picj from the 4-6 (sometimes even 8) plans available. What do the roofs look like? They are all the same, your choices are which floor plan and the 3-4 choices of color for the the thing (same-same in the interior, you only get 3 choices of VCT for the kitchen, too; 2-3 colors for the trim, etc.--but a barrage right there at decision time standing in the model with a clipboard and a tapping-foot sales person standing behind you).
Now, a lot of the buyers have spent a lot of time in even-less-well designed apartment or duplexes, scrimping up a downpayment. They only ever had choices of floor plan, all the units are unifrom marigold white with crummy thin carpet and thinner walls and are old after only one tennant or one year--whichever occurs first.
Surely, shirley, a 'brand new' house can have none of those problems that and "old" one would, right?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
One size doest not fit all. I get bored silly looking at 4/12hip roofs with 24" overhangs. I'd much rather drive through a sub with nice tall roofs and lots of gables and valleys.
Nuke - re your BI who said bay windows weren't part of the structure (or whatever it was) , please recall that in another thread I said to you that BIs tend to be very defensive when any discussion is brought up that might implicate incomplete inspections or failure to enforce building code. Above I told about the one on the phone who said "you want to file a complaint or what?" (or similar). Even though our conversation was rather brief, I think he sensed that I knew what I was talking about.
The other day I had a framing/mechanical/plumbing/electrical inspections on 4 town houses. (thread in gallery) The BI spent less than 10 minutes in each house, didn't even look at the plans much less the engineering sheets. I have no idea how you can do 4 inspections (per house) in less than 10 minutes. OK - he was a super nice guy and and he did give me a few minor things to fix to be checked on insulation inspection with no re-inspect fees. THANK-YOU for that. Still I felt almost slighted. I told my PM about it and he told me to just count my blessings and then started talking about all the A____ inspectors they had lately on our apartment projects.
So - BIs, for the most part, aren't by any stretch of the imagination quality control. They just need to make sure the building isn't gonna fall down within the next year or so. Granted - in another jurisdiction I build in the BIs are quite strict...
A guy working in Lowes said something pretty good to me a few months back - "Those who can build do. Those who can't inspect" :-) Again though I do know some really knowledgeable BIs.
I've many times wondered if there might not be an "opportunity" for some folks to implement either independent inspections or some sort of "certified" inspection by the BI (at additional cost) that would go a little way towards assuring better-than-minimum standards have been met for the house. I'm thinking of things like ISO 9000 that are used in other industries.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
I don't know about additional inspections by BIs but here there are a few HIs that specialize in under construction inspections where they verify code compliance and sound construction methods. Also for Energy Star there are verifiers that do framing, insulation, etc inspections that include blower door and duct leakage testing. The various green certification programs have inspection regiments too. Still, if the consumer is expecting to get a high performance home he needs to be paying for it.
Probably because I build starter homes I can count on one hand the number of customers I have specifically bought energy saving upgrades. On the other hand the number who had to have HW floors number are too numerous to count.
I'm not thinking about energy savings so much as just good, robust construction practices. Basically the attention to detail that most of the guys here would observe. The regular BIs could (possibly) be certified to do the inspections, for an "upcharge" of maybe $200-500, and their inspection practices would be checked by a 3rd party agency from time to time. (Or the inspections could be done by 3rd parties.)Would give folks here an objective way to show that their homes were better than the other guy's. Would give the BIs an added revenue stream and probably make them more likely to reject true shoddy work.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
I think BIs doing extra inspections on the side or on the clock might be considered a conflict of interest since it would insinuate that the regular BI didn't do a thorough enough job. Not sure though. If I had some inspections coming up soon I'd ask but none for a few weeks.
Re private inspectors - yes I have heard of those, but why not just use a HI?
Edited 10/31/2009 9:08 pm ET by Matt
I'm thinking of some sort of regular plan, with a certification of some sort. Not "Energy Star", but "Premium quality construction" or some such. Would (presumably) be done on spec and used as a selling point, vs only doing it on customer-contracted homes. Might be accompanied by an enhanced warranty of some sort (though there are good and bad points to that).The thing is, the average would-be HO has zero options for determining if a house is really well built. An after-the-fact HI inspection doesn't tell you if code was REALLY followed, house wrap installed as appropriate for climate, sill seal used, cracks sealed before insulating, etc.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
>> Would (presumably) be done on spec and used as a selling point, vs only doing it on customer-contracted homes. <<
Maybe it is just the current market but we have found that doing energy star (for example) doesn't add to the sales price of the home. I think something like you are talking about would be a give-away too.
You read these surveys saying that people say they are willing to pay for for a high performance home but when it comes down to it few are willing to step forward with the cash. Granted you are talking about something different, but it is the same in that it is an enhanced home.
Talk to Snort here on how he made out business wise on his high performance spec home. Another guy here, Shelter Nerd is very successful at green/high performance building but I am 90% sure he will only do presales. No specs.
I think your idea is a good one but it ain't gonna happen on specs in the current market.
Yeah, I also read the comments here saying that future HOs pick "flash" over quality construction. The problem isn't that HOs don't want a well-built house (and aren't willing to pay a little bit more for one), but that the average Joe HO has no way to judge whether a new house is well-built or not (other than by looking at "flash" items).I'm just trying to suggest some way to give people that information -- to simply give them the ability to be "informed consumers".
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Agree with all you said. Who knows - maybe one day when I don't want to do any real hard work anymore (mental of physical) I'll offer a HI service that specializes in new construction. For now I can still do it and have the urge to create. I'm sure dealing with the HOs will kill my creativity urge some day. Inspecting new construction homes would mean not having to go into nasty old crawl spaces, etc.
Which reminds me of something else: Here anyway, and I'd bet most everywhere else, BIs rarely if ever go in crawl spaces (they have open floor inspections before the floor sheathing is installed) and never go on roofs. So there is some limit as to what they can really check... Weird valley / cricket on a 12:12 roof (like Nuke's initial post in this thread)? It is entirely up to the roofer to do a correct flashing job. Actually the builder may likely not even check it out... Some jurisdictions have exterior building envelope inspections where the window flashing and house wrap installation and tape is checked before the siding install, but not in either of the jurisdictions that I currently am building in. Footing holes are always inspected, but footing projection after the foundation is installed on top of the footers is rarely checked by the BI and is usually covered before the BI comes back for his next inspection partially I guess because no one likes working on a CS house that hasn't been backfilled. Here, sheetrock code required nailing patterns aren't verified on single family residential. etc, etc. So, many code required items don't get checked. To be fully thorough, the BI would have to be there nearly every day. "The builder" is the only one who is (hopefully) there that much, but often (usually) in the case of mass production housing, even that doesn't happen. I once talked to a super of a regional builder who was building across the way from where I was. He said he had 6 neighborhoods with 50 houses under construction currently. I asked him: "How do you do it?" His answer: "Two things: First, I have a separate note book for each neighborhood and second, I really don't have time to get out of my truck very often. Close supervision hu?
Yeah, I'm only a DIYer HO, so I really can't easily judge how much work it would be, what should be inspected, or what would be a "reasonable" price (one that buyers would accept). But keep in mind that most would-be HOs are far less well educated than I am in building science, and have **no** way to judge the quality of construction other than highly visible (ie, "fluff/flash") items.If you want to buy a new TV set you can get all sorts of reviews on the internet (granted, not all of them trustworthy), but there's no equivalent for a new house -- most folks would never even think to get a new house inspected.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
"If you want to buy a new TV set you can get all sorts of reviews on the internet (granted, not all of them trustworthy), but there's no equivalent for a new house -- most folks would never even think to get a new house inspected."
Keep in mind that the typical house is NOT a product, so product liability/quality control issues/concepts do not (and should not) apply.
Jeff
If not, what controls the quality?
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
This afternoon I got a call from the county building inspector. The email I sent last week, and a online forum (like this one, but for the county) may have done the trick.
This week I am on jury duty, but we agreed that on early Monday morning I would call him and we'd get together. This particular individual took over the responsibilities of the individual I spoke with back in 2004-5.
Apparently, he is interested in seeing for himself, but now that I have spoken to other neighbors I feel they should utilize this individual as well. Something tells me the county may just be about to change their position on what is, and isn't passing for code.
I'm glad to hear the the county BI is taking an interest. It would be helpful to prepare a list of topics and questions for your meeting with him.
I'd advise you to ask one of your neighbors to join you, someone who is willing and able to back your efforts to get specific answers to your questions. I'm not suggesting an adversarial meeting, just one which stays on track and moves toward resolving the problems you wish to address.
Having two people on your side also provides corroboration of anything that's said.
Most definately. No way for me to present a builder behavior if its just one home.
My thinking is that it's not so easy to deal with an authority figure solo as a novice, even if you have a legitimate gripe. You'll have more persuasive leverage when it's two novies with gripes against one authority figure.
The 2:1 ratio seldom works when speeding. :)
True but it works well in court.
If not, what controls the quality?
Lots of things go into that of course - the point is that a structure is a complex, usually unique assembly. We're not making widgets or canned beans, where product issues and liability exist.
Jeff
True (except in some tract developments). But what assures quality? How does the potential HO judge quality?
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
I'll throw a little info in.I spent over 20 years as a carpenter and custom home builder. I am currently a municipal building inspector.I've only been on "the dark side" for a little over 1 year.It's certainly a different perspective from here.The "codes" are written as the minimum, or as some say- The worst allowable by law. They are written in a way that lays ALL responsibility for compliance on the builder.We review plans for conformance with the code, and later verify in the field that those approved plans have been followed.It is difficult for me as a former builder, but we must turn a blind eye to some issues of workmanship and "quality" of construction as these are not enforceable by letter of the codes.The primary purpose of the codes is life safety. Means of egress, escape and rescue openings, smoke detectors, handrails, guardrails, etc. Some of the items that cause the most problems for homeowners, improper flashing details, et.al. are barely covered. for example;R703.1 General. Exterior walls shall provide the building with a weather-resistant exterior wall envelope. The exterior wall envelope shall include flashing as described in Section R703.8. The exterior wall envelope shall be designed and constructed in a manner that prevents the accumulation of water within the wall assembly by providing a water-resistant barrier behind the exterior veneer as required by Section R703.2. and a means of draining water that enters the assembly to the exterior. Protection against condensation in the exterior wall assembly shall be provided in accordance with Chapter 11 of this code.
---------------from the 2006 IRCNot much more detail is given in the code, however just by browsing this board you will find volumes of information for the most minute details of weather protection. Again, it all comes back to the builder.When the desire for real quality surpasses the wants of more and bigger and shinier, then maybe the builders will be forced to do better.Before now, it has been a matter of supply and demand, greedy American consumers want the biggest-the fastest-and the cheapest to outshine their neighbors. This has come at a cost that makes everyone look bad.mj
Edited 11/2/2009 4:29 pm by mjesse
"I've many times wondered if there might not be an "opportunity" for some folks to implement either independent inspections or some sort of "certified" inspection by the BI (at additional cost) that would go a little way towards assuring better-than-minimum standards have been met for the house."
I would welcome that kind of environment. However, I would expect that would weed out all of the builders who are not quality minded (more $$$) and could easily add $3-5k to the cost of the home.
For an independent inspector to really verify that the home is being constructed as it should be, there would have to be weekly inspections, and some weeks would likely require more than one inspection.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I can imagine many would balk at the additional costs of everything. The axiom "you can't get something for nothing" is conveniently forgotten when the average consumer is shopping for a home. Of course, they remember full well once they have moved in and the complaining starts, but that's another story.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yeah, I don't have a good feel for how much it would cost, but I'd guess that the inspection would have to cost less than about 1% of the home price to be viable. Presumably the contractor would eat maybe 1/3rd of the cost in return for having a home that would sell more easily. Of course, the contractor might have to spend a bit more to build to the standards as well -- that's a separate issue.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Dan, you make me think of an opportunity. Ok, a BI has a set, by law, required minimum number of things they are suppose to check for the given inspection type. Why then cannot a municipality provide a consumer service (like education, in the form of public schools) where by a future homeowner can get a detailed municipal inspection on a home regardless of age? And for a fee.
Well, first, they would undoubtedly in strong build markets like Atlanta during 1993-2008 have a duality of a) being a consumer paid for service to find problems, and b) reporting problems an existing paid-for builder service isn't catching. Yet, the whole consumer-protectionism philosophy has completed evolved into a county employee protection system.
Builders in strong markets are not going to complain, or even file suit against municipalities for have a large backlog (30-90 days worth), and they are not gonna go file a suit out of fear an eventual inspection might become detailed. These tract builders of unethical centre will focus on how the environment effects them to their benefit.
If I were a county building inspector, I certainly wouldn't tell anyone. I'd be dead in minutes. And I'd probebly had been living in an apartment knowing how crappy the majority of tract construction is in this land.
Welcome to home ownership!
You've welcomed me before. I'll pass this along to the neighbors, though. :)
If "knowledge is power", then most of us are powerless in areas of life and economics wherein we are not directly involved or intimately acquainted.
I realize this is no help or consolation to you, but Americans are so overwhelmed by the day-to-day pressures of earning a living, commuting, trying to keep up with technology and meeting the needs of family and community, that it we easily become victims of the unscrupulous or ignorant salesman, craftsman or company.
I'm not pushing for turning back the clock, even if we could, but the fact is, that, as technology advances, craftsmanship declines, e.g., the complex rooflines that have been (rightly) bemoaned in this thread--technology (computer design) allows untrained, inexperienced designers to rely on truss companies to send out a roof package that, in the old days, would have required a framer of extraordinary talent and vast experience to execute. Along the way to this level of craftsmanship, he would have encountered and solved the various problems of flashing and drainage make the roof work good, not just look good.
Those days are over, and even if we could afford such craftsmen, where would we find enough of them?
The truss company just delivers the package and instructions for making it fit together, and that's it--no one to make sure the details are done right.
The blame and shame is on all of us. Consumers who rush into buying without the depth of knowledge they need to pass judgment of the quality of construction; builders who jump into the contracting business just because they can, and who rely on subcontractors that did the same thing; inspectors who are not knowledgeable or thorough; codes that are blind to quality; an education system that de-values the role of the hands-on craftsman and has resulted in a flood of untrained, underpaid and often-abused illegal immigrants. On and on.
Maybe Churchill was right: Americans can be relied upon to always do the right thing--after they've tried everything else.
You can't possibly be speaking from experience. I don't agree with anything you said in that post.
"You can't possibly be speaking from experience.
I don't agree with anything you said in that post."
If you see it differently, I'd be interested to know some specifics wherein my comments are off base. No doubt you've seen plenty in your career to shape your opinion.
As for experience--43 years in the building trades, with the last 17 as an inspector. I won't say I've seen it all, and I won't say I understand all I've seen--and that probably applies to just about everybody. But I certainly am speaking from experience.
Speaking from experience? You said "he truss company just delivers the package and instructions for making it fit together, and that's it--no one to make sure the details are done right." That certainly wasn't the case where I framed. We had three checks on every truss and spec package: 1) my worker 2) me 3) the building inspector. If there was even one nail missing, it was wrote up.
I was referring to the detailing that is necessary after the truss pkg is placed and fit--this is where the problems come in that the OP experienced. Things like missing/incorrectly installed flashing.
Please bear in mind that I am concerned about the breed of builder that has given rise to the problems that I and others have discussed in this thread.
You, most likely, are the kind of builder who attends to these details, whether your subs do or not, and whether any inspector would catch them or not.
But the lamentable building practices and lack of knowledge on the part of consumers that I spoke of are real, and they are wide-spread, as proven by the commenters in this thread.
"ut the lamentable building practices and lack of knowledge on the part of consumers that I spoke of are real, and they are wide-spread, as proven by the commenters in this thread."So is good craftmenship. Your statements are too broad for my tastes. You want to paint all the tradesmen of the day as woodbutchers.
Isn't it great how insurance companies can deny anything they want to for any reason they can dream up and kep getting away with it?
Biggest bunch of crooks since nixon.
"If you have enough energy you can solve a lot of other problems." - Charlie Munger, Berkshire Hathaway.
We have an abundant supply of domestic natural gas. Let's get busy solving problems.