I’m usually Mr. Overkill but Schluter was driving me crazy this a.m.
I’m in my office now writing up a proposal to do my customers powder room starting Friday.
I called Schluter to ask some advice..ugh.
The floor in the entire 25×50′ den/sunroom is brick cemented over a slab and has been down a good 30++ years. Not one single hairline crack. There’s a small powder room within this den about 5×7 I’ll be redoing. My plan is to go over the brick with Ditra. The rep almost went ballistic saying that it’s not recommended to use Ditra over brick. I explained that the bricks been down decades w/zero cracks and is really pretty even and to add…the grout lines are pretty shallow. I see no reason why I can’t lay down some thinset and then my Ditra…and to be honest w/you I think I could probably give the brick a skim coatthe day before and come back then tile right over that…but like I said…call me Mr.Overkill…I figure better safe then sorry.
The second part of this dilemma which I wouldn’t even bring up to him b/c I didn’t want his head to totally explode was that the brick “seemed” to me to have been sealed yearsssssssss ago. It’s hardly even noticeable. Being this is the only bathroom on the first floor and a tiny bathroom at that so it’s seen a lot of traffic scuffing whatever sealer might have been on the floor over the years.
Yesterday I put down some Versabond in a small corner behind the toilet to see how well it stuck. This morning I checked it and it seems to have stuck rock solid!
I thought I’d put a wire wheel on my drill or grinder and give the brick floor a once over to further roughen it up before I put my Ditra down.
I usually use Versabond under my Kerdi and Ditra b/c John Bridge says thats fine being its so lightly modified. I like the stickiness of it but I suppose I could go with a totally unmodified thinset in this case like Durabond (my tile suppliers thinset) or Keribond or Latticrete….I just like the stickiness of the Versabond…..any thoughts on that? or am I being just paranoid about wanting the thinset to be so sticky??
Second question: I’m using a Puzzle Cut tile for the walls which is as thick as the soild square 10×10 floor tiles…I forget the average thickness of a porcelain tile…3/8″-7/16+-?? but thats approx what it is. The puzzle cut style of these meshed back sheets are approx 3/4″-1″ wide x approx 6-8″ long held together in ewbbed backed sheets like you’d see a typical mosaic tile sheet…..these are just thicker then your conventional mosaic squares (sorry no photo). The two questions I have because i’ve never installed this specific type tile is….what sized notched trowel would you use. I think a 3/16×1/4 V notch would work. I think I saw one a hair deeper in which case I’d get that one (5/16?). I’m going to be using mastic over new drywall even though mastic is more money…it’s just faster IMO and its a totally dry area. Won’t even be behind the sink. I get sick of mixing up thinset…washing my bucket and tools fifty times before I’m done. The floor I WILL use thinset.
Third part of the question is….being these sheets of rectangular puzzle cuts are long and narrow (approx 3/4″-1″wide x 5-8″ long in sheets). When I go to comb my trowel along the wall it seems logical…even though it’s going to be a hair more difficult….is to comb my mastic vertically rather then horizontally. Think thats really necessary? I’d prefer to go horizontally like I normally do but seems I’d get more mastic/coverage on the tiles going vertical.
Fourth part of my question (sick of me yet : ) is….on mosaics I never back butter but being these are a larger then conventional mosaics do you think back buttering should be attempted or even necessary?….I don’t want it oozing through but I want optimum coverage!
Whatcha think??
Oy…it’s alway sumpin’!!
thanks guys
andy the constant worry wart View Image
Replies
Way too many questions. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I can't see any reason why you can't Ditra over the brick. I might spend a half hour swiping at it with an angle grinder if I was worried about adhesion.
I wouldn't worry about using modified either, but remember it will take longer to set under the Ditra, so maybe take a day off and let it harden a bit. And skimming it the day before is a good idea as well.
As for the wall tile............a good rule of thumb is to use the trowel you think you should,aplly the tile then pull it off to check for coverage. Of course if the mastic is oozing out of the joints you went to big. No coverage on the backs of the tile you need a bigger trowel.
I have several 1/4 x trowels that are worn down varying amounts. 1/4x3/16 sounds about right. You can adjust that to some degree by angle of trowel.
I don't give a rat's #### which way you trowel it on Can't mean beans. I've taken jobs apart that were stuck like the devil only to discover poor coverage. Go figure.
You may want to prime the DW first. mastic doesn't stick well to compound and it will set up rapidly on the raw paper.
What else Andy?
now a z z with no spaces is blocked
Edited 4/1/2009 2:11 pm ET by EricPaulson
now a z z with no spaces is blocked
if this keeps up pretty soon all the words will be mutated to an altered form and only the regulars will be able to figure out the code.
Quit calling me a duma zz.
what's a dumma....and who's zz?
if this keeps up pretty soon all the words will be mutated to an altered form and only the regulars will be able to figure out the code.
You know, I've kinda taken a liking to ####.
It's simple, doesn't offend the non adventurous too readily and carries the point quite well to those of us with a little imagination.
And of course, there's regional differences.
If you wish to be more specific.........that takes a bit more time.
i.e., kiss my white hind end.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
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Thanks e
You verified all the things I already thought. One thing you brought up though that I also always think about is priming drywall before tiling. I can never decided if thats a good idea or not. When I thinset my tiles on that last bathroom job I did that you saw I didn't prime and it stuck like crazy (but I did use MR rock). If anything I'd think thinset might do better primed on drywall so the water in the thinset dries slower but I do have to say...a cpl of tiles I pulled off just ripped the drywall off with it so....no worries there. Sometimes I think primer might make it worse being its a coating...in spite of it soaking in.
But with mastic... I don't think it has the liquid in it like thinset does to worry about drying overly fast. I also think digging the points of the v notch into the drywall just short of tearing the paper would make for better holding power as well.
What about back buttering? I'm thinking no on these particular tiles. I'lljust pull a few and see how they hold. I also noticed when at the supply house they had mastic with superior holding power for even more money but my guess is that would be money better spent for the use on ceilings not that many people tile ceilings outside of a shower...and you shouldn't use mastic in a shower. I dunno...too many choices....lol.
I need a 30 year vacation...lol. I can't belive even with a small job like this I'm still pulling the few hairs left in my head out. I think I care far too much sometimes.Whats up wit dat?
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Andy,
One person only in this world calls me e. Well, sometimes eps. My bestest friend since kindergarten. Be flattered!
My point about priming was in refference to the areas that have taping compound on them esp. corner beads. If you glue the lie to built up taping compound it will disolve the compound and it ends up stuck to a weak layer of nothing. Ask me how I know.
Not saying it won't work once all is said and done and grouted..........
A good oil based primer that soaks in a bit.
Backbutter, I gave you my answer on that under trowel choices. i would say no, not with a mosaic. To much mastic takes way long to dry out anyway.
If you tile truly is porcelain, mention it to the guys at the tile store. The super mastic might be a better choice. i just finished up a porcelain job and had to remove a couple that had slipped and I was underwhelmed with the attachment of the glue to the tile.
It's good you have genuine concern. But you also have experience and peers on which to base you decisions.
The guy that calls me e say that it's too easy to think your self into paralysis.
I think he's right!
Do your homework and bust a move.
My point about priming was in refference to the areas that have taping compound on them esp. corner beads. If you glue the lie to built up taping compound it will disolve the compound and it ends up stuck to a weak layer of nothing. Ask me how I know.
What I do in areas like seams on DW that will be tiled over is I use thinset and fibergalss tape as though I was taping over a CBU.
If you tile truly is porcelain, mention it to the guys at the tile store. The super mastic might be a better choice. i just finished up a porcelain job and had to remove a couple that had slipped and I was underwhelmed with the attachment of the glue to the tile
I too thought to do that as well...ask the people at the tile supply house but this is a pretty big store and I have a feeling they're just salesman with a lot less knowleddge about installation then I'm gonna need but I do plan on asking around the store trying to see if they do in fact have a t least one guy that can help me.....I'm just not counting on it if you know what i mean. I can always just spring for the better glue. I'll check the prices again andmake sure it's not goingto totally kill the price I gave already. I think it was about ten bucks more a tub from what I vaguly remember but I "think" the tub was a whole lot smaller. I'll find out tomorrow.
One person only in this world calls me e. Well, sometimes eps. My bestest friend since kindergarten
Funny...cause someone I knew from about 40 years ago I was good frineds with (he was a kid then...maybe 12 years old)found me on Facebook just two weeks ago. I didn't even hardly recognize his pic so I asked him if he was the kid I used to call "E". His name too was Erik and I was the only one that called him E....sure enough it WAS him and that popped into my head when I addressed you as E....too funny.
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Going back to the brick.............did Schluter give you any type of valid reasoning why you should not thinset the Ditra to the brick?
Yuo did tell him it's a floor right?
FWIW, there are primer/bonders available for situations like this.
I have a really good mason supply house that carries a good part of the Mapie line up as well as standard mason supplies.
If I had one small grain of advice to send your way it would be to upgrade your setting products fron Custom. Go with Latticrete or Mapie.
What else?
If you've never seen this before you can thank me later : )
I JUST found it...never saw it before in my life.
I had a nightmare of a time on that porcelain tile job drilling probably 2 dozen holes into the tile for my customers slew of towel rods, rings, shelves, toilet paper holder etc etc. Just when I thought the worst was over I figured I'd be back for maybe an hour to drill the holes in the porcelain for his accoutrements.
As you know porcelain is THE hardest of all tile. a nightmare to drill through accurately. I finally discovered a place to buy hollow bits with diamond tips but as you know on slippery porcelain the bit slides around until it's cut into the surfacea bit and with the fixtures I was putting up for him the directions said there was NO room for error...UGH! I did get it done but as I was just looking for an 11/64 x 11/64 trowel on line to put my Ditra down with I stumbled upon this contraption for only $20 something dollars. How cool is this??!!! The cool part is the water reservoir contraption w/guide below!!
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Diamond Tile Drill Kits #248View Image
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Detailed imagesView Image
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Product ratingView Image
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Edited 4/1/2009 11:24 pm ET by andybuildz
Edited 4/1/2009 11:26 pm ET by andybuildz
Edited 4/1/2009 11:27 pm ET by andybuildz
http://www.tileprotection.com/product.php?diy_session=contractor&productid=248&cat=102&page=1
but as I was just looking for an 11/64 x 11/64 trowel on line
Andy, you need a rest.................
I've seen similiar bits but I seem to remember them being quite a bit more expensive.
Last job I used the hamer drill with brand new Bosch bita with good success. Ruined two bits I think.
I don't truly understand the need (I doubt there is one) to make so much porcelain tile especially for walls.
Good luck on the trowel.
Home Depot...in the tool coral...not the tile dept has a variety of those bits in all sizes and they're all around $10-$12. I think its Ridgid brand. Teh "one" bit they have like it in the tile dept sugs and they only have 5/16" there.
I made well over a dozen holes with the Ridgid one and there's still plenty of meat/diamonds on it to make a dozen more. Just keep spritzin' water on it.
The hammer drill I tried but it chips a little too much for my liking if you need to get an exact size plug in. Those hollow diamond bit ROCK!! Cheap too at HD.
Far as the trowel goes...if I find a store today in my travels while picking up more porcelain tile for my customer witha Ditra/Kerdi trowel I'll buy it but a 3/16x1/4 works fine .
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Just found this in the drilling glass thread. Also...HD carries these bits cheaper then this site does but some good info here...just scroll down the page I left the link for http://www.diamond-drill-bit-and-tool.com/Diamond-Drill/Default.htm?DD1.htm
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Edited 4/2/2009 8:57 am ET by andybuildz
I'll have to give those a try sometime.
Thanks
make sure to keep spritzing water on it otherwise the diamonds burn out in 2 seconds. I used a windex bottle with water and set myself up so it was easy to drill and spritz at the same time and I was SHOCKED how long that little bit lasted. Thats why they're hollow with an opening in the side of it btw...so water can get around the bit as well as in it.
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No work today? I'm dying here or it feels that way.............not good.
Thought you'd geta kick out of this.
Made a post at John Bridge's Forum today and one of the things I mentioned was that when I spoke with someone from Schluter's tech support about using Versabond under and over Kerdi and Ditra....saying that even John B claims he uses it with success the tech guy went balastic saying you totally can't do that and that Versabond is a #### product....so here's a very funny response from the moderator over at JBF
Yesterday, 12:48 PM
#9
cx
da Home-builder -- Moderator-at-Large
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 36,011
Next time JB and I are at one of the Schluterizin' seminars together, we're fixin' to grap ol' Peter Nielsen, tie him up, and make him watch a demonstration of installing Schluter products with VersaBond. Gonna be a little brutal havin' him tied up like that for 24 hours, but when he sees that the VersaBond has set up just fine over and under Ditra and Kerdi and even inna double Zip-Lock baggies, he'll be a new man. Still a tied up new man, of course, but a new man nonetheless. View ImageMight hafta leave him tied up a little longer, too, on accounta I wanna be waaay far outa town when he gits cut loose, eh? View Image
__________________CX
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I would recommend emailing whitehouse.gov.
Joe Biden will come out to the site and give you a hand. ;)
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
There were 1.5 million people at the inauguration and only 14 missed work.
well with the photo in your profile I think you need a whole lot more help then I ever will : )
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