I don’t know much about the following situation: some of the “facts” are what I supposed happened. I’ll make it first person, but I wasn’t there.
A friend of mine is an alcoholic, he tells me he’s in recovery.
He’s had a couple of DUI’s, and just got off a probation program where he could only drive to and from work and had a Breathalyzer in the car that he had to blow into to start the car and at random times while driving.
We’re on a “just for fun” softball team together. Most (all?) of the other folks don’t know about his alcoholism or DUIs.
After our game the other night, most of us (including him) went to a bar to have a couple. (We’ve done it before.)
My friend didn’t drink at the bar, and, as we were leaving (not too late), I “suggested” he drive straight home.
He didn’t. He went to another bar; got plastered, hit a parked car on the shoulder while going down the wrong way on the exit ramp of an interstate. (Not a real busy one, but not a lonely stretch or road, either.)
And he ran when the cops showed up.
Should I have not gone to bar with him/them? Suggested an alternative? For everyone? Or for him and I?
I’m interested in people’s thoughts on the ethics of the situation, and their reasoned thoughts about other’s views.
Personally, I’m not the least bit interested in whether anyone thinks anyone else has made a stupid comment. (And yes, I have done that myself, so the pot is calling the kettle black — let’s just see if we can avoid personal comments in this thread, though.)
If you want to call “my” actions stupid, though, go ahead, it wasn’t me.
“It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good.”
— Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
Replies
"A friend of mine is an alcoholic, he tells me he's in recovery."
Bob,
What does that mean....He's not, and while might be trying, he isn't yet, but is a lier.
"Should I have not gone to bar with him/them? Suggested an alternative?"
If he is reformed, he would have had a soda and gone home.
Still don't understand your question.
Jon
Maybe I should have said "told me."
Bottom line, "I" thought he had his life under control.
My question is basically should "I" have tried to keep him awy from the bar we all went to or tried to get everyone else to do something else?
Or was "I" right to just let him go and get tempted.
He didn't drink while "we" were together, he went on his bender after "we" went our separate ways.
But, knowing what "I" did, did "I" act "responsibly."
(This all happened to someone else, but given the diversity of thougyts in the last thread, I've been giving this situation some additional thought, but don't know where I come out on the issue.)
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
Jon, first hand info here..
1..it's called recovering , never reformed or recovered..like it's called alcoholisim , not alcohol wasim..
2 anyone who truly desires to not drink and has attempted a 12 step program KNOWS that one must change people, places and things..a bar is a place, drinking friends are people, and things are those bottles..
3 I agree with you on this point .." if you are TRYIN, you're Lyin.." either you are drinkin or you're not..there is NO middle ground for a true Alcoholic.
4..it sounds as if he had what is called a relapse..it happens far more often than most people realize..4 of 5 AA'ers have at least one.
For Bob W....YOU can't be held in anyway responsible..he KNEW what he is, and what he was doing..he chose to get lit..what he needs is a sponser in AA..and what ever the judicial system decides to hand out..he'll get jail time I am sure.
Sad to hear it, but I have heard it ALL before, he is lucky he didn't kill anyone. And as another one who knows what is like, I'd tell him Thank You for doing it for ME, now I don't have to go and find out how BAD it is, to be powerless over alcohol yet again.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
SPHERE
Excellent post.
Bob was no was resonsible for anything that happened to his friend in any way shape or form.
Its called "triggers".
Going to a bar was seriously nuts for him and he absolutly knew it when he went.
He'd have been better off drinking with Bob because at least then, Bob'd have seen him burnt and driven him home BUT.....he'd have done it again and again and again till he either killed himself or someone else.
The only person responsible for you is you.
What gets me is how cheap it is to call a cab compared to the reprocusions of driving burnt.
Spose when yer lit you dont think properly.
How interesting is it that pot is illegal and booze aint?
Ever see anyone high on weed get into a street brawl?
Too weird!
The other weird thing to me is that all a cop has to do is sit outside a bar and follow someone for two seconds....know how many busts he's make?
Yeh sure, I only had two.....specially in a flip flop joint.
The dictionary should have "I only had two" under "L" for lier...lol
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
It's a difficult question--on one hand you want to treat your friend like he's a responsible adult and believe him when he says he's on the wagon. On the other hand, can you trust that he's not giving you a distorted view? I had a friend who would bring a 12-pack over every time he visited. Then one day he tells me he thinks I'm an alcoholic because every time he comes over all we do is drink! I guess I was an enabler. Hind sight is always 20/20. I guess the answer is, don't beat yourself up over this one and next time do it differently. What exactly you'd do, I don't know. Follow him home? How far do you go to help without undermining him/his self respect. I guess if you really want answers there is a program for friends and family of alcoholics that gives advice on how to help and not "enable."
Incidentally, a guy I knew at work told me he was driving his girlfriend home through a bad part of Saginaw when he saw a drunk lying in the road. He drove past and dropped his girlfriend off. On the way to his own house, he passes the same place and sees that the guy had been run over by another car. So he felt responsible--"If only I'd stopped and helped him..." I said, "Yeah, but what if you'd stopped and it was a setup and a couple guys jump you and beat you up, rape your girlfriend (this happens in Saginaw), then today you'd be saying, "If only I hadn't stopped...""
Most importantly, no one got killed or hurt in your situation. Don't mean this as lame as it sounds, but, good luck!
I would have suggested an alternate. It's too tempting to fall off. Being as you knew of his problem he was careful around you, but once he got away from "mothers" care the demons took over, that's what recovery is all about. tip toeing on the edge. I've got a sister going through it and I see her struggle with it all the time. As long as the ideas not there she's fine. But as soon as someone brings out the booze and starts having a good time with it, then she forgets all the problems it's caused her. (An almost identical hit and run and fleeing from the cops, like you described.)
This is one reason I no longer do "beer with the boys" There's always one that sooner or later turns it into drama, and I don't care to be a part of it.
Who Dares Wins.
Bob
My reaction is similar to gunners. I know of and have some really good friends who are alcoholics. I wont go to a bar with them, or share a drink at their house, there are some who do there drinking at home(as you know there are as many kinds of alcoholic as there are ways to vent a roof)
My wife goes out of town to meetings quit often, once she went to St Louis, their meeting was at one of the river boats(gambling), she said that one of the women who went was addicted to gambling(don't know the proper term for it) at the boat this woman lost a large sum of money. I guess she was devastated. I thought this was one of the most irresponsible things that a corp. could possibly do, not that they forced the woman to go but.... Not much difference than the alcohol issue.
I have a sister who is defiantly an alcoholic, she cant even go out to our mothers house(20 minutes away) without bringing a 6-pack with her, sometimes with her young daughter. My mom tells her she don't like it but she don't listen. I'm not quit as diplomatic as mom, but I don't want to be any part of the whole ordeal. I will help when they want it but not until then.
Its good that you are concerned but the ultimate responsibility lies with the alcoholic.
Doug
Bob: This question was asked of God when Cain killed Abel. "Am I my brother's keeper?" You are not going to get an answer to it millenia later; no one has answered it yet!
God puts us in this world with choices. Your friend made his. You cannot be with him every minute of every day. Number one, we should not lead friends into temptation. Did anyone pressure him into going to the first bar? Sounds like he made it through the first gate fine. Did anyone pressure him while there to have "Just one..."? You saw that he was on the way home safely. What he does when he gets out of your sight you cannot control. I would say your responsibility consists of not leading him into temptation and ensuring that others who are unknowing do not, either. You can protect him from others; you cannot protect him from himself. Ah, but that is what separates us from the true animals - a conscience and the capacity to feel guilt & remorse.
Don
There can be complicating circumstances and lots of details which would make a long post such as, if "I" had done such and such and then he did this, then what would you do? But you asked a straight, blunt question so I'll offer a straightforward reply.
I think it would have been best, knowing the man's condition, to steer him (with or without the group) away from exposure to alcohol. People who haven't suffered from an addiction or compulsion cannot appreciate how incredibly strong even a slight temptation can be for such a person. You wouldn't let a child cross a highway even if he freely desires to do it, because you understand that, despite what he believes, it is much more dangerous than he realizes.
In the Bible it says, "Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD," (Lev 19:14), "Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way," (Rom 14:13), and "Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak," (I Cor 8:9). So I think there is clear authoritative teaching as to how we should act when faced with a situation such as the one you describe.
I know a few people who went through the program successfully. After eleven years one of them still will not let himself be put in a situation where temptation is present. Good for him. He knows what it takes and he says he is still recovering.
Out of respect for this friend and what he has accomplished I won't indulge in front of him. To bring him into a bar just because thats where the gang is going to meet wouldnt help his recovery. That guy probably knew he was in trouble the minute he walked in the door.
You might have thought that as long as he did'nt drink he would be OK. I have been told it does'nt take all that much to knock a guy off the wagon and they usually dont fall off in front of anyone.
Bob,
You're a good soul for wondering what you could/should have done to help your buddy or prevent this second accident. But there's not much else you could have done. Only thing I can think of would have been to pull him aside when he joined you guys at the bar and confront him on his desire to even be in such a place while trying to stay sober. It's called "pulling his covers". If you want to be friends with an alcoholic, you can't be afraid to call him on his bullsnot. That's the kind of friend he needs.
We have a saying around AA about stuff like this..."You wanna hang around the barbershop, sooner or later you're going to get a haircut." An alcoholic in early recovery has NO business being a place who's primary purpose is to serve alcohol.
Also, first time he had a drunk driving problem may have been an accident. Second time (the other night) was no accident. He already knows what happens to him when he drinks, he loses control. That was no accident.
Alcoholism is cunning, baffling, and insidious both to the alcoholic and those who care about them. The bottom line is that nobody is responsible for his actions except him. "If you don't pick up that first drink, you won't get drunk". He was sober when he made the concious decision to head to another bar and have a few wobbly pops. He made that decision and his own track record made it clear to him the possible consequences of his actions. Basically, he made a decision to hit that parked car.
However, life is not that easy. You obviously care about this guy and it's not so easy to just wash your hands of it and say, "well he's big boy, he needs to take better care of himself, this is his problem" But now it's in your head, so it's your problem too. My VERY best advice to you is to attend one, just one Al-Anon meeting. Not an Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) meeting, but an Al-Anon meeting. These meeting are for those folks who are not alcoholics, but folks who's lives are affected by alcoholics. These meetings teach folks how to both help (and not enable) alcoholics, deal with alcoholics, and let go of alcoholics. If you care about your buddy, just go to one local meeting and sit and listen. It will really open your eyes and may even spark an idea or two that you can use to both deal with and help your friend.
Best of luck, Brian.
"You wanna hang around the barbershop, sooner or later you're going to get a haircut."
My understanding is that AA teaches recovering acoholics to avoid the people, places and situations where they drank before. Clearly this guy gets drunk in bars (not all alcoholics do) so HE shouldn't be going to bars if you is really trying to be in recovery.
What should YOU have done? I wouldn't hold the non-recovering-alcholic to the same standard. They don't know the risks and traps that exist unless they've known other AAs or have some medical training.
Now that you do know? Discourage him from going to the first bar. Maybe that environment was the trigger or temptation that lead to the second bar. More likely, he is not really in recovery and only trying to pass as such. When there were witnesses, he behaved himself, then went out to tie one on.
Usually, I think the ethically thing is to INCREASE another's choices (and sin is to decrease them). But like stopping your child from running into the street, some people need to be kept from immediate harm. But since you can't do that all the time outside of an institutional setting, the "tough love" for someone who is screwing up is to let them screw up, bottom out and be there when/if they want to turn things around. Continually picking up the pieces for them is just enabling their addiction.
In retrospect? Going with him to a non-drinking venue instead of the first bar would be something a friend would do, but not ethically required, IMO.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Dave, I honestly can't tell from your post if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. Can you explain this to me. It appears that you are disagreeing with me by the stance you take in your post, however everything you say seems to repeat or reinforce what I've said.... I'm not trying to argue, just looking for clarification.
I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with you so much as responding with my own thoughts, some of which were triggered by your "hang around the barbershop" quote which I think has a lot of truth in it.
I agree that Bob's heart is in the right place to be concerned and questioned about this complicated topic.
I agree that friends of an alcoholic need to have a low tolerance for BS.
If my post seems conflicted, it may well be because I have conflicted feelings about addictions, mental illness, and all manner of pathological behaviors. I'd like adults to be adults and for the right answer to our interactions be to give everyone more rope.
But clearly some people will hang themselves when given more rope.
Give the hitch-hiker a ride? What if he's an alcoholic on the way to bar?
Give the beggar some change? Will he just buy drugs?
Make triple-drug HIV treatment more available? Will some people just keep screwing around?
Pay welfare? Will some people choose not to work?
Let companies manage themselves? Then do Enrons and Worldcoms happen more often?
Hence we have a ton of laws about all kinds of behaviors and, in our personal lives, often take a "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." philosophy.
I suspect the problems of sustance abuse and addictive behaviors will only get worse. The first wave has been the last few centuries when alcohol, opium, marijauna, etc got introduced to cultures that had never seen them before and had no genetic or social resistance to them.
I think the next wave will be designer drugs (opiate deriatives, $9 boner pills, etc.) combined with highly effective marketing. And non-drug activities that are hard to keep away from (computer solitaire, or on-line forums, anyone?).
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Edited 7/5/2004 1:44 am ET by David Thomas
....on-line forums,...
hey, I can quit anytime I want to...
"there's enough for everyone"
Wow, I returned to this thread after reading the original post a few days ago and I gotta say, there is vast knowledge and wisdom among y'all.
I've known Bill W. for thirteen years and, thank God, never had a relapse. I know in my bones the propensity I have...the vulnerability, the familial history. Gotta say, there is a part of me that wells up with grattitude when I read about a sad situation that could have been mine.
I feel for this guy that chose to drink after his watchdogs left. I guarantee that if he has internalized anything that AA teaches, his life is emotional H-ll....and he just took a big dump on an already conflicted state of mind. Nobody can torment him like he can himself. In many cases, alcoholics think of themselves as clever...hiding their addiction. Oh, but who do we really fool? And to what end?
One of the greatest gifts I reaped in recovery was honesty. Now, I considered myself honest and trustworthy, and my friends and family would, no doubt, agree. It was my internal integrity that was compromised, I lied to myself, and even had me believing my own lies. Such is the power of denial. As someone stated above, addiction is cunning, powerful, persistent.
As to one's responsibility to an addict / alcoholic, the views here are insightful. Ultimately, one can't save an addict from themself. The line of personal responsibility is often a hard one to distinguish, but frequently worth the effort to define. We do need boundaries that seperate us from our brother's demons, less we fall prey or faciltate them.
'nuff said...peace to all...and thanks for the reminder of why I chose this path. PJ
Whatever you can do or dream you can,
Begin it
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Goethe
"...computer solitaire..."
Yup. That's why I play Free Cell instead of solitaire. I've only managed 10,638 games of Free Cell.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Already I thank you all for your insights and views.
I've been lucky (blessed?) to have not had to deal with alcoholism up close and you're observations and points have helped me clarify my thoughts.
The "I" in the events is a good friend of mine, and I just couldn't get a grip on the situation to offer any good advice.
I appreciate all of the comments here.
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
Edited 7/3/2004 6:13 pm ET by Bob Walker
I am a recovering alcoholic, five years sober. Prior to that, I told everyone I quit, and still kept at it in what I thought was secrecy. I believe that in your friend's situation, if you would have accompanied him to the next bar, he would have found another way to get a drink. I've done them all: hide a bottle in the toilet tank; claim I had to work late; stash a bottle outside so I could do my "yardwork"; I could go on and on. I was fortunate that my wife convinced a good fried to "escort" me to AA meetings until I could attend on my own. Sounds like this friend should also attend. Not many people can quit on their own. Listening to some of the horror stories at AA meetings can change your life. I agree with Sphere: you have to remove yourself from your old habits, even if it means your "drinking buddies". Odds are there's not much else in common anyway. Bottom line is everyone can look out for the guy, but if he really wants to drink, chances are he will.
"Should I have not gone to bar with him/them? Suggested an alternative? For everyone? Or for him and I? "
first .. I think your going or no'ing wouldn't have had any effect on anyone but yourself.
alternative ... may have worked ... this time.
for everyone ... or the 2 of you ...
but just how long would you have to hold his hand as you walk him down the straight and narrow? Then ... first time you're outta eyesite ... he's still probably jumping into the closest bottle ...
"falling off the wagon" is usually more like jumping off at a high rate of speed ...
it's gonna happen no matter how hard the person sitting next to them is trying to hold onto them .... as with the other "drunk" thread" ... as nice an idea as it sounds ... I don't think any one can do much to change an alcholics mind ...
one of those ... change's gotta come from within ...
probably lotsa kids and spouses would tell you the same ...
I've been "close" ... but never "up close and personal" ... but all my years behind a bar have given me a pretty good education on the subject ... if they want a drink .. they're gonna find it.
So ... my opinion ... no sense trying to change the world to fit one person.
The team wants to go out for a beer .... each team member should know for themselves if they should go along ....
and along those same lines ... the hand holding ... I'm pretty sure you have a wife and kid to watch over .... they'd start wondering where you were if you put the time in to fully protect this guy from himself, huh?
I understand the question, though. About 15 min after watching my MIL pass away in her hospice bad ... I took the chance ... and quietly pointed out to an inlaw that the last thing their family needed was for them to go out drinking and become anothing problem at this time. Kinda a hard thing to say to someone that was crying over their mothers death ... but I think the words needed to be spoken and reinforced at the time. I apologized later ... still thinking it was the right thing to do ... and was thanked. They said coming from anyone else it might have been a challenge to prove them wrong ... but from me ... who was 99.99% silent on the subject ... it made them realize their immediate thoughts to go get drunk them arrested weren't the right way to deal with the situation.
Tough stuff this letting grown people live their own lives ....
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I am in total agreement with what you say, Jeff.
Ok, once you've picked yerself up from the floor, let me make an additional comment....
Like David says, even though not required, asking the guy if he'd like to go hang out somewhere else instead, is something that you can do. It gives the guy an alternative. It is what I would do as a friend.
But you can't nanny him. You can't rag him into going someplace else. Etc. He will do what he wants as soon as you are out of sight.
In short...
Your obligation as a caring human being, is to offer an option. If the option is not taken, that is it. You have to let the grownup live his own life, as Jeff says.
....
On the other hand, circumstances/obligations change if you actually see a tragedy waiting to happen, and do nothing about it.
Who cares, wins.
On the other hand, circumstances/obligations change if you actually see a tragedy waiting to happen, and do nothing about it.
That's what I thought was a very real possibility the one time I said something directly to that family member ...
They've gone the wrong way a many times before .. and a coupla times since ... but I thought for the good of the family .... I'd take the chance. It wasn't a normal situation ... there was one dead body in the house already ... kinda shakes things up a bit.
In the times since ... I've stepped back to the hands off approach ...
The one time was probably the one and only time that talk would have worked anyway .... and for a limited time as it was ....
BTW .... I knew you'd come around sooner 'er later!
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Overheard at an AA meeting:
"We're all here cause we're not all there."
As I said in the last thread, 1 in 5 make through the door the first time, 1 in 5 of them stays a year. The odds aren't good. Some people never find their bottom. Its sad. I think the suggestion of going to an alanon meeting is a good one. There is a much higher probability of an alcoholic driving other people completely crazy than them getting sober.
There are no hard and fast rules, but there are suggestions based on the experiences of others. It is suggested that one not go into an establishment that serves alcohol unless one has a compelling reason. If you know someone in recovery, ask them how they feel about you having a drink in front of them. Most will tell you. You have to also consider the possibility that *they* might not want to be excluded or be treated as a child. Who is to say that one isn't at a greater risk for relapse when sitting at home alone because *they* weren't invited to join their teamates after the game. It is an individual decision that everyone has to come to themselves. I met my wife in a bar. Still rethinking that decision 18 years later. ;-)
Basically, your friend is responsible for his own recovery. He chose to do what he did only because he chose to do what he did. Sounds like he made a bad choice. He isn't the first, nor will he be the last. There are people who walk through the doors and never drink again. Perhaps it is because they had a moment of clarity, or they had found their bottom. But most people have to hit a few new bottoms before the program sticks. I suspect this is even more common now because people are either coming in, being referred, or having interventions done at a much younger age before they have lost much. In fact, I see kids being sentenced to AA at 15 who are no different than all my friends who were wild teens and then grew out of it. I came in when I was 26. I couldn't even imagine doing it at 18 even though all the signs were there. Those who do stay are those who understand where they are at the moment, and where they will end up if they continue. We tell people to stay around long enough, and eventually they will hear their story. People still hang onto the idea that you have to be a bum in an alley to be an alcoholic. In most cases, if you keep it up, you will get there eventually. Your friend might discover this, he might not. In these cases, I have a very short and simple statement which I use. I tell them that if they continue to drink and/or use, there are only two things that I can promise. 1) It gets worse. 2) It will get worse than you can possibly imagine. I told that to one of my friends right before he got his third DWI. I wonder if he believes me now? Probably not as he lost his license for 3 years, is still drinking, and hasn't yet told me directly that it happened. But I am still here when he is ready to come in.
There is one truism for AA. It might not get you sober, but it will screw up your drinking for good. ;-) Pretty hard to have fun in a bar after hearing a bunch of horror stories about how your life might turn out.
Well said, my friend. Some of the stories I have heard at AA are absolutely devastating. It gave me a bit of confidence to push on, and erased the self pity I had when I started attending.
"Some of the stories I have heard at AA are absolutely devastating."
True, but I've also heard some of the funniest there as well. And I'm sure some of those stories are the basis for current sit-coms. I always remember the scene from "The Player." a black comedy about life in Hollywood. One of the guys says, "I have to go to my AA meeting." His friend says, surprised, "I didn't know you had a drinking problem?" The first guy responds, "I don't, but that is where all the major deals are being signed."
I came in to the program in '83 right when Cheers was starting and the theme song was being played on the radio. So one day, I'm driving down the street and listening to the lyrics. "you want to go where everybody knows yours name, and they are always glad you came, ..., troubles are all the same, ... " and click, it hits me, this song is about AA. Wow I was so excited as I was in this gloom and doom mode where life just sucked. So I decide to watch it, and am horrified to see it is a show that is making fun of drinking. I was so PO'd I didn't watch it for like 5 years. But then I caught an episode where Norm comes in, sits down, and says, "Every day I come in here, sit on this stool, drink beer, and try to figure out why my marriage isn't working." I just about fell over. Only someone in AA could write that line. It was *drunk logic* in its most pure form. Since then I've paid more attention and have noticed that sit-com scripts often parallel what I've heard in meetings. The names are different, but the war stories are the same.
I guess AA must be different than what I have heard. My understanding was that one of the first things participants are expected to do is to acknowlege their problem. By keeping his problem secret from the rest of the buddies, your friend is still hiding it, which to me implies that he is not in recovery. How much easier would it have been to suggest an alternative for part of the group if they were all apprised of the situation. Sure, you'd have a few that would say "I'm not letting his problem interfere with my life", but there may also be a couple who'd say, "What a relief, I hate that place. Let's get coffee and eggs at HoJos".
Your friend chose his path. I have great sympathy for him, but he does have choices. I'm glad that he didn't kill anybody. As for your actions, you are not responsible for the actions of another adult. You can help influence his decisions, but he and he alone is responsible.
This friend needs to do jail time to prove to him that he can no longer drink alcohol. Sometimes ya just gotta get really low before coming back up.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934