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I haven’t yet seen a finished product with the use of hardieplank, but I like the concept…my only concern is that eventhough this product is touted as being a good low maintenance siding, I don’t care for the lack of finish with the product. ie. no detail for corners (outside or inside), exposed 1x furring on the edges under the corner battens, face nailing at but ends, etc. The suppliers up here in Canada haven’t got their head around the product yet and I haven’t had a chance to see a finished job…anybody have any advice…this is fine homebuilding and I just don’t like crappy finish work with reasonably high end materials.
TDC
Replies
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Chris,
I have used Hardie-Plank and when we do, we use either 5/4 x 6" cedar on outside corners and 1x1 cedar on inside corners or 5/4 pre-primed hardboard corners. I was just reading in a trade magazine about a finished outside corner for cement-board siding. It resembles an outside corner used for vinyl siding, where the ends slide under a flange. This stuff is paintable.
I just looked it up: Company name is PermaChoice
Product name is Cornerpost
Web Site is permachoice.com
Phone number is 888-923-8799
Hope this helps
Steven
*I am going to install HardiePlank for the first time in a few weeks. I had the same dilemma. My lumber yard showed me a product that is vinyl for the inside corners and the starter strip at the bottom. I saw the outside corner but did'nt like the reveal. I am going to install the outside corner trim and butt the Hardie up to it.
*here's a job we did last fall..... Mike Smith "Hanging fiber cement" 10/5/00 11:14amthere are others in the archives too....
*hey there,check out "cemplank"similar to hardi-plank, but I think it's a bit better.Cemplank has more trim and accessory pieces, costs a bit less, and has a better warranty.They've got a site @ http://www.cemplank.comgood luck andBeWell, PB
*Did you know that Hardi makes 1x materials called Harditrim? What I do is install my siding first then use two 1x4 at the corners, inside and out. As I put up the siding I wrap a piece of felt around the corner from top to bottom, then the siding, then the two 1x4's I don't caulk the gaps created by the lap siding under the 1x4 corners either, that's why I put in the tar paper, this allows any moisture under the siding to escape at the corners and any moisture that does get in the corner will run out at the bottom on top of the tar paper. I also use Harditrim 1x8's or 1x10's to do the facia, and a combination of 1x4's and 1x6's for trim around the windows and doors. Hardi also makes a product called Hardisoffit for soffits obviously, it's 1/4" thick and comes in widths from 12" to 24" I think that's right, I usually use the 16" width. This soffit can also be bought perforated which does away with the need for vents (saves a lot of time and looks perfect). As far as trimming out the soffits I haven't found a Harditrim 1x2 which seems odd to me except that it might be susceptible to breaking. So, I use cedar or redwood 1x2 to trim out the soffits, once painted you can't really tell that it's any different.
*adam... yur kiddin..right ?
*Why, Should I be? Some lumber yards carry iformation sheets on all the hardi products, Most of what I've mentioned is on those sheets.
*right... and there is a spec sheet that says to put vertical trim on top of the clapboards ?
*Oh yeah man... I had to spend some time finding it on their web site but it's there as an option to doing the trim first then the siding and caulking the gaps left under the trim is left as optional too, a good flashing job will eliminate a lot of worry. I had been looking for a spec sheet on Harditrim and then I saw one in a Home Depot and snagged it as soon as I saw it. For reference the only identification # I can see on it is JH9906TL, the spec sheet is entitled; "exterior trim - installation instructions: over lapped siding" but it's dated Oct 1998 and there are no current spec sheets specifically for Harditrim even mentioned on their web site. However under products > siding > new construction > technical information > architectural specifications, you'll find a word file that outlines the installation of Harditrim and gives the 'over lapped siding' option. Actually, I can understand that this seems like an odd way to trim out siding to some people. I have noticed that most of the hardie brochures featured the siding being butted to the trim. But I've rarely ever seen it done that way here, maybe it's a Texas thing. One thing I thought of was that we don't have to deal with same cold climates here that some people do. Your guess is as good as mine, I had felt very unsure about this for long time until I saw the spec sheet myself.
*adam... go with your initial feelings...listen to your inner self....although it IS done.. both with clapboards & shingles.. it is bogus...and it ain't just a Texas thing...each gap left at each course is a bug bedroom.. a dirt catcher... looks like someone got theri sequence wrong...always looks like an amature didn't quite get the concept.....i did it once with some Fypon Trim to fancy up an existing entry door...i didn't want to remove the existing clapboard... so we caulked the gaps... i hate looking at it...and hope i never have to..b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Mike, Adam, what do you think about butting the siding to 1x4 corner boards, and then running 1x6's over the top of them both? I thought this up as a way not to have to look at the butt joint, but not allow bug access to the corner...thought it would be better for shedding water, too. Do others do this?...all i've ever seen is the butt joint with Hardieplank...
*splinter.. here's what i think..((although it IS done.. both with clapboards & shingles.. it is bogus...and it ain't just a Texas thing... each gap left at each course is a bug bedroom.. a dirt catcher... looks like someone got theri sequence wrong... always looks like an amature didn't quite get the concept.. ))when you look at vertical trim.. it isn't supposed to look like vinyl siding....b but hey......
*Mike ,I couldn't agree more.There are many things in this biz that ARE done but that doesn't make it right ,also I don't recall ever seeing James Hardie endorsing anything remotely like that ,but I may be wrong .If you're concerned about allowing water to escape maybe you should check out the article on rain screen techniques in the latest FHB.Not to steal your catch phrase Mike ,but hey...
*I work for Lone Star Remodeling in webster TX. We are certified Hardi installers. We have installed the trim in both ways. I personally like the siding butted to the trim. It is much more weather resistant. Also, trim over the lap in the siding and into the stud is a long way for the nail to go through hardi, which is very tough. We also install treated pine trim instead of the hardi trim. This is my personal favorite since i am a trim carpenter. Hardi trim is not forgiving like wood. You cant take a block plane to it to tweak it.Also, if you need a a piece under three inches you are out of luck. It will break apart on you. It really is good stuff though. An installation done right and painted right is a beautiful thing. I can honestly say that most of our jobs have turned out impressive. There are some houses that, due to the original framing werent as impressive. But the clients were given the option to fix that as well but due to finances declined. Feel free to call Gary at AAALONE STAR REMODELING281-480-7676 He will be glad to help you out in any wayThanks Michael Brown
*mike .. you face nail or blind nail ?are you doing any pre-finished ? i love this stuff.... i could see the mfr's coming up with some kind of composite.. bonding fibercement to 1/2 wood composite backer... so it got to be 5/4 profile.. dreaming , huh ?
*I'm with you on this one Mike...what is gained by slapping the trim overtop the siding? Only thing I can think of is it is faster and you save on the cost of some caulk. For builders who will do anything to save $50 bucks here and $25 bucks there..I could see them doing this. Not very nice looking though.DJK
*Mike S.,Hey- what about using GP's Primetrim up against the cement siding? The Primetrim comes in 5/4. Good stuff.BTW, anyone else ever use cempannel? More accessory pieces, better warrenty (sp? sorry, just got up), and in my area, it's a tad bit cheaper.BeWell, PB
*I'm almost afraid to admit that I'm a fan of placing the corner boards over the siding. I do it all the time, unless the builders objects. Usually, the builder doesn't object and actually prefers the look, but the caulker objects. The only caulkers that objects are those that uses substandard materials. I prefer it fo two reasons. #1, I like the deeper reveal on the board. We use rs spruce in this area that is 7/8" thick. The 7/8" reveal gives a nice look. I usually run the boards down to the bottom of the belt ( the belt usually runs around the perimeter and the brick tucks under it) and up to the top of the frieze. I like the looks of the corner board standing proud, instead of being flush with the belt. #2, I believe that this corner treatement is a superior water prooofing system. As we all know, many homeowners neglect their caulking, even though it should be inspected and touched up yearly. If a crack develops in the caulking that seals the overlaying corner board, the intruding wate must travel a significant distance to reach the subframe, or underlying layer. This method reduces the likelihood that negligent maintenance will adversly affect the product. This method would actually work without caulking installed, but as Mike said, it would be a nice spot for bugs.The argument then becomes the look after caulking. A good caulker will put a 3/8" bead all the way down the edge. After caulking, no one will know whether that siding goes under, or is butted to the corner boards.One additional tidbit worth mentioning. If you butt the siding to the corner board, you probably are required to prime that cut edge. It is required for LP siding but possibly not for hardie. Anyways, we don't. I don't know anyone else that does out there in the new house market. Since we tuck our cut ends deep behind a corner board, our ends are less likely to be exposed to the elements that will destroy the integrity of the system.One last item. It's faster.I did it that way on my house because I believe the system is better, and looks better.blue
*phat... 90 % of the trim we use is GP Prime Trim..we switched over about '95...it's got it's pro's & con'scon: it's hard, likes to bend nails, do a lot of pre-drilling.. it's not primed on the back.. so we have to prime it it doesn't like end nailing.. so pre drill.. we don't do miter details with it (no end nail holding ) doesn't like to have the nails set, so we use SS, ring-shank and leave them flush..pro: decay resistant cost long lengths consistent lots of widths and two thicknesses loves paint very hard, will take a lot of abuse..a good companion to fibercement...the fiber cement we use is the old Ashland Davis.. now Certainteed...also called DuraPress in some markets....the only Hardie products we use is HardieBacker for tile...
*From my fine woodworking background, the look of a raw, butted edge seems less aesthethically pleasing than tucking the ends under the board. In my version of having a sub-cornerboard, the problems of nailing to a solid surface are addressed, and the corner board looks more substantial. Durapress is taking over more of the market here from Hardieplank as well; the patterns are more realistic and it's denser, plus there were some unsatisfied customers with the Hardie plank--i know some who said it had shrunk after being installed on the building.
*Thanks for saving my skin, ol' blue eyes, splintergroupie.I thought I might be the only one who approved of trim over the siding, but alas, I'm not alone. I feel the same way about the added texture or "shadow lines" that you get this way, the feeling that there's something there more substantial. And, I totally agree with you about the caulk, Having spent a lot of time repairing roofing leaks, I know better than to ever depend on caulk to keep out water when a different construction method will eliminate that problem. The beautiful thing about putting the trim on top of the siding is that caulking the gaps isn't even necessary, and if your worried about it you can do a fancy flashing job behind the siding at the corners, several different ways, one felt strip from top to bottom under the siding or even strips of felt or metal flashing used like step shingles to make the corner so watertight you don't even need the corner trim for water penetration. As a matter of fact I thought someone from FHB must have been spying on me when I saw their recent article on siding. It occurred to me one day as I was putting on some hardiplank that, I didn't want to go back and caulk every one of the butt joints so, viola! felt strips behind every seam that run out on top of the lower course of siding, the same approach you would take if this wall was a roof. Now, call me crazy but I'm not caulking those joints, nor do I leave room for the caulk and I never have to worry about cheap caulk causing me a headache.
*around here in san francisco you almost never see the corner finish details but jointed to the siding, it is almost always applied over and these houses have been up since before 1900. i think that around the teens someone decided that it would be a good idea to do something about the gap at the top of the shiplap so they cut little wood peices to stick in there ( to keep out bugs etc ), the buildings have not fallen yet so i can really see no reason not to do it that way, and 99% of these buildings just have siding over felt ( no sheeting ). i would be interested to hear from some east coasters to see if there victorians were detailed in a similar fashon, maybe it is just a wild wild west thing.
*Splinty, Hardi claims that their product won't shrink.I've done the method that you describe, using 1x4 filler and a 1x6 cap. I couldn't figure out what the advantage was since they always caulk in these parts and the look remains the same if I overlay, butt, or use your hybrid method.blue
*James, i've thought about inserting those fillers for those caulkers that like to squawk. After a lot of probing, I found out that the caulkers don't like the boards overlayed because "it uses more material". They probably use an extra pint, maybe a quart.blue
*well.... far be it from me to disagree with anyone...but what is the difference between corner boards or any vertical trim detail?and since we all trace our roots back to colonial new england.. i would think we'd take those details as our standards and evolve from there...horizontal siding is butted to vertical trim....vertical trim does not overlap lapped siding...caulking is a new phenomenon...before caulking they certainly didn't load the lap-gaps with primer and putty....occasionally i will come across a design element rabetted out and notched so it will fit over the siding.. but it is always an indication that someone got something out of sequence...another reason for NOT lapping trim over siding is that the two elements are independent... you should be able to replace siding WITHOUT removing the trim... b but hey, whadda i no ?
*blue you old rascal..I must say after reading your first post... that I can see your points.I to like a good reveal where the different elements meet. I've always used filler material under the corner trim to get the same look you described at the corners. And sometimes I'd go for a built up coner going over the frieze, sometimes I go for a built up frieze look going over the corner board.I assumed that with the coner board over the siding method that the void was just left open. However the way you descibed it (fill in with caulking) I can see where you have the same look and don't have to mess with the filler material. I mean I would be caulking there anyway , so it isn't like a lot of additional time to squirt out a little more.What material do you like to use for corner boards when using fiber-cement?djk
*Mike, there is nothing wrong with noting and adherring to details that originated in different times with different materials. But,I don't agree that all similar installations should follow the old ways, just for old times sake. If there is merit to the reasoning that belies the technique, then that should be considered.It seems your reasoning for only butting centers on two reasons; tradition and ease of replacing. Tradition is an emotional thing for some, not me. The importance of ease of replacement is debatable. The siding easily slips out from underneath the corner boards if the caulking is removed. My biggest complaint with the corner board treatments isn't whether to butt it or tuck it. I believe the builders should supply 5/4 stock that allows us as craftmen to do a nice job. No matter how you create a "built-up" corner, thick enough to stand proud of the lapped siding, I find it to be rather cheesy. Inevitabley, I'm forced to deal with some crappy looking detail at the bottom, or ugly seams that need to be hidden by caulk anyways.If a builder wants to be proud of his house, and supplys me with nice 5/4 stock, quality belts, properly sized drip mould and properly angled flashing, you can be sure I'll deliver a quality installation that will rival the times of the past. Until the day comes, I'm going to "get by" just like the builder wants. I'd like higher standards, but that isn't the marketplace I operate in. In my opinion, with the substandard replica materials, I actually think I'm doing a better job by tucking.If you did the siding on my house for me, I'd insist on it done my way, even if you offered to do do the installation for less money by butting it.As you can see, quality is in the eyes of the beholder.blue
*Djk, we use rough sawn spruce for corner boards. They measure 7/8" x 5 1/2". The belts and frieze measure 7/8" thick too. The lapped siding also equals 7/8" and therefore makes it very convenient to lay the corner trim over the frieze and belts, as well as the siding. We also can choose to build out the frieze or belt but we rarely do for varius reasons.blue
*i'd have to agree with you on that one , blue... even white cedar shingles stand proud of 3/4 trim..after screwing around for the first couple of years with built up trim to get detail.... i finally bit the bullet in the '80's and just decided that all our trim, butting siding, was going to be 5/4... so..that 's what we do....the last time i used 3/4 was when we built our house in '85.. but a lot of things have changed since then.. there are a lot of things we do different now...this is another cycle... when i started in the late '60's there was no detail... no money ..the details didn't start comming back into residential until the go-go years of the 80's, and they've stuck around...but they are all a throw-back to our neo-colonial roots....or our craftsman roots.. or prairie roots... etcetera,...etcetera, etcetera..
*Good for you Mike. If I ever get back to the retail market, where I decide what materials I install, I'm going to insist on 5/4 corner boards too, unless I'm working with LP siding, which I prefer to tuck.Maybe I'll insist on nice thick real siding, the kind that I can't cut with a utility knofe too.blue
*Blue, i've been trying to remember where i read that Hardie had some problems with putting out the product too fast in order to meet demand, had some autoclaving problems that resulted in belled ends for about a foot or so. I read that contractors who complained about the problems of matching belled ends to cut ends were treated right by Hardie and the material replaced promptly. I questioned the story my friend told me, but he assured me he butted the ends tightly and now the gap is obvious. He's a bright guy and no newcomer to construction so i believed what he said, though it seems odd, doesn't it? Maybe it's related to the belled ends problem...?
*Splinty, I've been around long enough to believe only half of what I hear and none of what I see. The Hardi Plank guy told us at a seminar (I think I'm certified now) that the product is dimensionally stable. We were told not to seal or caulk the butt joints. We were told that we do not have to have any exposed nails at the butt joints. We also were told that we could use roofing nails into a wood substrate and the nails did not have to hit studs. We always aimed for the studs anyways. The roofing nails did work well.I just do like he tells me to. I've never went back and studied a hardi job, but will do so the next time I'm in that sub.Incidently, we never had any joints that didn't fit well.It is possible that the siding your friend installed was swollen from moisture. The rep indicated that the #1 problem with the product was improper storage. It comes wrapped, but many leave it exposed to the elements. The ends would tend to swell.blue
*Blue, you say at the seminar you were told it's dimensionally stable, but the rep said it will swell--what am i missing here?
*He says it's stable if properly used. If you are going to soak it in the mud, that's a different problem.The stuff differs from LP siding which requires substantial gaps due to its expansion/contraction rates. Hardi can be butted tight.blue
*I am replacing some beveled siding on my 1920ish house. Does anyone know where I might find some authentic-looking reproduction metal caps for the corners?Thanks.
*I am replacing some beveled siding on my 1920ish house. Does anyone know where I might find some authentic-looking reproduction metal caps for the corners?Thanks.
*"and since we all trace our roots back to colonial new england.."Really? Is that when water started running downhill?
*gee, bill...perhaps
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I haven't yet seen a finished product with the use of hardieplank, but I like the concept...my only concern is that eventhough this product is touted as being a good low maintenance siding, I don't care for the lack of finish with the product. ie. no detail for corners (outside or inside), exposed 1x furring on the edges under the corner battens, face nailing at but ends, etc. The suppliers up here in Canada haven't got their head around the product yet and I haven't had a chance to see a finished job...anybody have any advice...this is fine homebuilding and I just don't like crappy finish work with reasonably high end materials.
TDC