Here is another one, actually it will be the first one to get in and install in this condo conversion project we’re doing kitchens in. We invite your comments.
When standing at the sink in this kitchen, you look across a wide hallway into a dining area, so there is plenty of circulation room on the other side (the sitdown side) of that L-shaped island countertop. We just modeled the room to where the wall takes a corner.
You can see two wall structures behind where the range and hood are. The 5-foot wide bumpout in the “behind” wall is an existing brick chimney, which is getting covered by the new wall work. The new wall covers that chimney, and gives us fastening purchase for cabs, and and endwall to the left of the fridge.
I wish we could move the large window, which looks to the lake, but we cannot.
The pantry cab, 16″ deep, in the recess to the right of the range run and adjacent the window, has a cutout for a microwave, a GE Monogram Spacesaver. It is the only place we could think of to put the MW.
The fridge is shown to scale, and will be a built-in high-ender, a SubZero or a clone. What would you do above the compressor panel to trim things out?
The large wall unit to the left is a 12-deep group of cabs, four doors wide, two doors high, the upper doors having glass panels.
Edited 7/12/2006 8:16 am ET by Gene_Davis
Replies
Not a bad layout.....but IMHO......still a few kinks to think about.
Considering this kitchen's 14'-6" x 18'-3" size.....the grouping of the "main work area" seems cramped, while all of the wall storage (except the spice cabs) is aways off.
Another quirk would be putting dishes away out of the DW. You will have to go back and forth around the island return since the only avail wall cab storage for dishes is the 12" deep grouping on the left of the island.
The fridge is shown to scale, and will be a built-in high-ender, a SubZero or a clone.
Since there is dead space behind the refrig, why a "high end buiilt-in"? Just upgrade to a standard 32-34" deep, 27 cu ft stainless, and recess it into the dead space for a flush front.
What would you do above the compressor panel to trim things out?
I would then put a 24"deep cabinet above the standard refrig. Handy for those large dishes, and platters that only come out to entertain.
The existing brick chimney structure is the headache here. The owner is insisting that the range back up to it so its hood can vent into the flue. We're stuck.
As for the fridge, we had a 70-inch height 36-wide fulldepth in there before, until the owner told us he needed the fridge to be "one of those tall ones," and when we dug in a little deeper with our questions, we realized he wants a built in like a GE Monogram, Subzero, Viking, etc. That class of fridges all have a height of 84 inches or so, with their compressor on top dressed with the typical front panel.
We can deepen the large wall unit on the L to 13 or 14, if we need to, but all our flatware at home fits in our 12-deep uppers. Is NJ the land of oversized plates?
We can deepen the large wall unit on the L to 13 or 14, if we need to, but all our flatware at home fits in our 12-deep uppers. Is NJ the land of oversized plates?
That was not my concern............Someone else's...................although around here "we lika da pasta ona bigga plates".
All my NJ plates fit in my 12" deep NJ wall cabs also.... ;-)
My point was that the only WALL cabinet in which you can store dishes is on the opposite side of the island return. Emptying the DW will be a pain.
Also, for the size of the room........there is not a lot of convenient cabs.
So lets summerize.......
You cannot change any window or door sizes or locations.
You must put the stove against the exist flue.
You must use a "built-in" refrig.
Other than that.....you are free to "design" the kitchen layout......correct?
get rid of the chimney and you will have a better space to work with
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12" deep is not deep enough for a plate, much less a pot in my house - where are you planning to have them put dishes? The two tiny cabs to either side of the range are not enough. Seems like there is a big waste of perfectly usable wall space for cabinets or something next to that window. Unfortunately, because of the gigantic island it can't be used for anything. If it were me (and I'm not a designer), I'd shorten the island a little so it doesn't make that wall unusable. Next I'd pull that island back toward the range a bit, since 8' is a long trek. To do this you have to take off the little leg of the L, which doesn't seem like a great loss to me anyway because it looks onto the shallow cabinets instead of out the window. I agree with the other poster about the wasted space behind the fridge, but I assumed that the niche would be accessible from the other side next to the fireplace.
I make most of my wall units 14" deep so larger platters etc can be placed thereBut you know what? No matter how deep I make them, somebody will always stick something in one ofthem that is 1/2" bigger than the space andthencomment that the door won't close or the cab is too small.;)
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14" is fine for an upper, but wouldn't 16" be better :)
Our plates are just over 12", so would not fit into the original design. I noticed that when he flipped the island he also grew that cab out a bit, so it seems much better to me.
In some places a 16" upper is way bad, because by the time you get a door on it, you have to do the backbends to avoid hitting your self in the snoze.Your plates would fit in my cabs
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Gene, how far from the sink to the range?
Were there kitchens in these spaces before? The configurations are odd. Have you asked any kitchen designers for their take on these floorplans? There's so much more you should be able to do with these spaces. I'm no kitchen specialist but I'm having a hard time understanding the layouts.
thanks.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin, the place was an old motel, with no kitchens anywhere. The owner has no plans, no architect, and no one but himself to decide on anything. Furthermore, he apparently is kind of clueless as to what kind of planning to do for a kitchen.
What we are stuck with is the location of the range. He insists it go there, where you see it, so that its vent hood can stack into the old flue of the fireplace. The window sill is too low to get any base cabs under, so we had that to deal with.
What we have in the island basecabs is a 42w sinkbase, a 24w opening for the DW, a 36 x 36 susan in the corner, and in the short leg of the L, a 25w basecab that will house a trash bin and recycling bin.
We can deepen the large wall unit on the L by an inch or a little more, to make dinnerware storage a little better, but I cannot see any other approach so far.
It is a vacation condo kitchen, and will probably be what we are calling a "snack and breakfast" room.
As for the kitchen designer, I am it. That is why I am putting it up here at Breaktime for comment.
Thanks Gene, that clears the waters. You are stuck, but with all the previously stuck experience here, you might get lucky.
As to the venting. Is there a possibility of movement left or right with range utilizing a soffit to get the pipe to the flue?
As to the island location. Is the sink stuck in that spot or can you move the island in, thus cutting down on the space to cross from sink to range/reefer.
I didn't bring back up the plan so this is memory-bad as it is. Since the "condo" might not be in need of a large kitchen (how many bedrooms in these units?), can you change the configuration to smaller (narrower) easily and still get what you want?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin, I tried a soffit on the owner yesterday. The one I had done had its front face in a straight line across from the face of wall that is to the left of the fridge. The soffit died into the wall above the window. It was to be used as a chase for venting the hood out the wall above the window but beyond its far upper corner, and also as a way to get some small PAR canlights over the task areas of counter to the range's R and L, and over in the microwave corner.
Mr Owner nixed it, greatly disliking the asymetric look of it (he likes everything centered), and then sprung on me the need to vent the hood up the old flue.
As I said to another poster re the island usage, the L in the sink houses the 12" leg of the corner susan, plus the 25w cab we need for a two-bin trashdrawer cab.
Furthermore, the owner had already piped for drain and supplies, which sort of fixed the sink location.
I attached a straight-down view that answers your question about how far from sink to range. I don't like it either.View Image
Edited 7/12/2006 4:09 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Edited 7/12/2006 4:10 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Gene. I'm stymied. More so from the owners reluctance for suggestions. It's his place, do the best you can with the materials provided.
Speaking of the devil. Why not plan on coming down to L.I. august 18-20 and visit with us at the Fest. You're a little like Jerrald, a ficticious name on a computer screen. The way I look at it, you owe somebody a beer. Bring it with you.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I also would get rid of that L part of the Island. You dont show dimension for walkway between Island and 12" wall cabs. I would make base of that area standard depth and add countertop, if you cold shrink the Island a bit. Stick the m/w there. Joe
I agree with the comments to move the "L" to the other side of the island. Two benefits: more open & easy access to the pantry and a nice view as the cook does prep work.
Here ya go and thanks. I flipped the island, inched it over toward the window to give minimum walkroom there, and moved the tall wallcabs unit closer to the opening at the upper right, to make it more accessible.
View Image
Edited 7/12/2006 10:25 pm ET by Gene_Davis
I like it! Unexpected bonus - the L is closer to the stove (downside is further to the fridge, but at least for me I prefer it this way).
Please comment on the details called out on this pic. I am trying to wrap this up.
Met with owner today to settle appliance specs so we could understand space requirements for fridges, ranges, hoods, and microwaves. This model has those specs incorporated into it.
Fridge is a GE Monogram SS built-in, requiring a cab opening of 35.5 w x 84 h, and we don't quite know what to do above it, in the reach between the fridge's compressor cover panel and the relatively low ceiling. I am suggesting the top "stile" of the cab just simply be wide enough to snug to the wood ceiling, as shown here.
I think the kitchen designers that put cabs above these tall built-in fridges ought to be made to sit on a stepstool in the corner, and wear a pointy hat. After a month of stool-sitting (the first month the owners use the new kitchen), the designer has to give the stool to the owners as a gift. They'll need it.
Owner did not want a soffit over the range run of cabs, and since everything inside and outside the building is in what I would call "simplified craftsman" style, I though it best to just do a simple flatboard crown on the cabs, and stop them at the 84" height, rather than run them to the wood ceiling. Trying to give the wood a break.
But as you can see, the fridge cab runs up to the ceiling. I don't think we've a choice there.
I thought we would add a little style and make the top run of door panels glass in the wallcab unit on the R. Maybe even an art glass like antique or seedy. I would like to see if the owner will buy into a little upcharge to do xenon in-cab lights up in the roofs of those cabs, and use 3/8" glass shelves in them, front edges penciled and polished.
View Image
Edited 7/13/2006 10:06 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Gene,
I like it - it's coming together very nicely! The glass doors are a great touch - hope the owner goes for it. DW and I have an issue with dust, so for us going all the way to the ceiling is a good thing. Our ceiling is drywall though so we don't have the wood-on-wood thing. We did a similar flat trim thing, but verticle instead of horizontal, what with all the Shaker-style... You can see it both on the top of the china cabinet (not touching the ceiling) and the wall cabs. Just a slight reveal - 1/8" IIRC.
View Image
Wayne
Edited 7/14/2006 12:32 am by wrudiger
Just a couple of comments for what they are worth.....adding the glass doors is nice, however, it appears that the range hood area is the focal point of sorts, so you might want to consider doing frosted glass doors on the uppers to either side of the hood. This would leave the entire "pantry" cabinet as the real "work horse" storage space.
Also, I personally think it is important to have counter space beside or under the m/w. You might want to re-design the m/w cabinet to be a shallow depth base cabinet with counter and same depth uppers above. The m/w could either sit on the counter or be mounted above. In doing so, the hortizontal lines of the stove area would continue visually into that alcove.
One last radical suggestion......had you looked at turning the island into a pennisula and running it into the window wall? Not sure if it would give you enough base cabinet storage, or what the circulation needs are.......I am not a fan of corner base cabinets but I LOVE galley kitchens.
Good Luck
Considering the space you're working with, the flipped island is a good layout. I also would vote for the shallow base / upper in the microwave area...perfect for the espresso machine!
And the space behind refer begs for a "secret storage" place or something sunk into it from other side.PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Great minds--I was going to suggest the same thing about making the island a peninsula that runs into the window wall. Could even put wall cabinets above part of it without the kitchen getting too closed-in feeling.
The window sill is way down too low for that. No can do.
Who dealt this mess, anyhow? ;-)
At the same time this one delivers, #2 one is coming also, shown below. I think we are close to final design.
It is in a room adjacent a broad 6' wide hall, and if standing at the sink, the person there has a view of the lake across the wall through a large window.
It is what I am calling the "pocket" kitchen. It is a dead ender, but what are you gonna do?
The bumpout in the corner to the L of the fridge houses an HVAC unit, tightly packed in. The additional bump wall that will be built to get the fridge out so there is door swing clearance re the cabs at the corner, will have a large access panel inside on the L that can be gotten to by rolling the fridge out of its cab-framed trim.
View Image
Edited 7/14/2006 9:08 am ET by Gene_Davis
I think what they were talking about was losing the el on the island and making it a peninsula ending on the window wall.
Pull back towards the stove and keep the front of the cabinet run even with the trim on the window.
I also vote putting some landing space by the MW.
How about base cabinets/overheads in the wall unit to give some counter space. kind of like a buffet?
The window is the problem. Its far jamb is too close to the back wall in the "pocket" area to be able to get a cab of any greater depth than 16 inches, and its sill is too low to bring anything to it at counter height.
With the plan with the big window, I was talking about wall cabinets perpendicular to the window wall placed over the island (so they really wouldn't be "wall cabinets" at all, come to think of it!). Just maybe a short one--like two feet long and 30" high.
That kitchen is nicer in some ways than the other.
Only thing I'd do (forgiveness rather than premission-wise) would ber to extend that corner "bump" porportionally out over where the fridge will be. Trimmed on two sides, but the same height as al lthe other casework, it will look more "built in" (at least to my eye & experience.
Oh, and if you are going to use a paneled faceframe for the back side of the peninsula, putting a removable panel behind the DW can come in right handy. A similar pane, naturally, would go in to "balance" that one.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The post about this kitchen mentioned, but the pic did not show, the soffit addition that will come out from the wall bump, reaching over the fridge cab and the adjacent wallcabs. Take a look below. I added it to the Sketchup model.
We'll do 1/2" ply over the front face, bridging the DW opening, then glue CVG 1x4 e&cb doug fir on, which will match the wainscot being done throughout this entire 2 BR condo, and the five others in this complex. I think it's a bit much . . . I like to see new surprises in wood trim treatment as I move through a house. But hey, it ain't my job.
Your suggestion about a back-of-dishwasher panel removable for access sounds like a bit of overkill. Access is a necessity when there's none, but what plumber can't just unfix and roll out the DW when necessary? What about those millions of DWs installed against outside walls of kitchens?
View Image
Edited 7/14/2006 6:17 pm ET by Gene_Davis
The owner may not "want" soffit" but that is absolutely what is needed
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Please comment on the details called out on this pic
Well, me, personally, with the "exposed" vent units like that, I like the stainless wire rack shelves instead of traditional upper cabs, since they can "overhang" the hood a bit ay the sides (and add a bit of 'commercial' kichen flair.
But, given how small this is, there's probably no way you could "get away" with no uppers at all (even with the completely satisfactory run of cabinets on that "left" wall. So, hey, there it is.
My "eye" really "wants" a matching "fascia" panel over the MW cabinet unit to help balance the one over the Fridge, but since it's further back, that might balance it (or not, might be a real good idea to have a bit of a panel ready "just in case").
Hmm, anyone thought about what window covering is going in? Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
That is better, Gene. One thing that bothers me is the dust catch that will be hard to keeep clean wheree the range hood abutts the flanking wall units.Be sure to study that installation literature for the GE Monogram MW. You DO need to order the "optional" trim cover plate. That was not clear to me until I tried to installl
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You mean like this, Pif? How would one install any hood so that the top surfaces of the hood weren't dust catchers?
If we could live in a zero-gravity world, we could do everything upside down, the floor would be the ceiling, the dust would just be floating free, not settling on anything, and we could suck it all up with a continuously running (and quiet) air cleaner. ;-)
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Gene, to be honest, I haven't ever seen an open design range hood used in a contained location like that - more often in open island or peninsula locations. But that spacer bar goes a long way to solving the problems I waas forseeing.
Let's see If I have photos of some Monogram installs...
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Only layout change I might make would be to flip the "leg" on the sink island to the window side, so that the 12" deep storage units are more "part of" the kitchen.
I'd be sore tempted to make the last 24" of that end look like a table added to the island (a couple of stock table legs would be cool)--especially if the sill of the window is low.
One thing that comes to mind, is what happens to the new owner's existing MW?
That niche by the window is actually probably not a bad spot for the MW, as it's out of the the traditional triangle's traffic flow. Now, rather than an MW, I'd be very inclined to build in a bit of a "break front" in that location with a 27-30" wide, 21" deep deck/counter over an 18" deep 42" tall base, with a 15" deep unit above that, and using 12/15" units on the side to clear the window.
There'd be a MW-ready outlet in there, which could also run a coffee maker/espresso machine, if that was more to the client's wishes.
But, that's me.
Now, for some "fru-fru" I'd add at least a suggestion of a pot rack over the sink. I'd for sure install tip-out trays on the sink's false front since it's a flush deck. I'd install a soap dispenser in the sink as well, too. If there's any question about water quality, anothe hole, to balance the soap dispenser for a filtered water tap is a good thing (or instant hot water, depending on which is likely to sell better.
For over the SZ--that's a toughie. Usually the trim panel tops out at 84" AFF, which is right up there. You can put a plywood deck up there (since the trim grill handles all the circulation the SZ needs)--but, it really needs a false back about 18-22" back so that things don't "vanish" on top of the fridge. Better to light that from behind and up, rather than down from the ceiling, too, fro mthe "lessons learned" file.
Gene,
I just ran into this post after following the previous kitchen.
Have you considered a deep (4' or so)cabnet under the window all the way from the stove wall to a peninsula beyond the window. Then I'd put the sink under the window with a space behind for plants, or acessories. Do like Susenka sugests & flow the counter top directly to the window sill to tie outside & inside views.
Then on the peninsula end it on the left with 2' or so on legs. It seems like a lot is being lost to optain that high cabnet next to the window.
Also we are starting to see a lot of intrest in dishes in drawers instead of wall cabnets.
Jim
Sounds like a good idea, but the window sill is only 30" from the floor, so it would be a low cabinet that the sink would be in. Might be worth it though to put a shorter window in.
I'd put something like a recessed flower box or shelf in the window
Aha, excellent idea! Then I think your layout for the kitchen is the best one.