another ‘stud spacing’ question ..
How important is it considered to be by you experienced framers to always continue the same studd line down through floor by floor. If there’s a specific reason to off- center a next-floor-up stud by a few to several inches … is that seen as a problem? .. or .. unfortunate at all???
thanks!
t
Replies
It'll create a PIA for the sheathing crew putting the plywood on. if you are sheathing with 1x10, no sweat.
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It'll create a PIA for the sheathing crew putting the plywood on. if you are sheathing with 1x10, no sweat.
I AM the "sheathing crew"! AND the framing crew and the plumbing, electrical, insulation, door and window, siding, trim and finish crew.
But ASIDE from the sheathing ... is there any compelling reason to keep it all in line running down floor X floor???
thanks -
Helps with the mechanicals. Helps with the sheathing. Helps with the siding.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
It depends on which wall.
It depends on how the sheathing is run. If it doesn't cover the rims, the then it doesn't matter. We con't sheath our rims, so the sheathing issue isn't a consideration.
We NEVER stack our outside wall studs on the second floor outside walls. And it has NEVER affected our mechanicals or sheathing. I'll have to take that back. On two occasions in the last 30 years, the heating guy couldn't find a way to get a wall heat in an upstairs bathroom. He had to put a wall heat on the outside wall and we had to move, or header a stud. That takes five minutes, maybe less. The header is only 12" wide and carries one stud above it. The register is right below it. Even that is rare becasue no one wants to put a heat on the outside wall because it can't get the proper insulation behind it. It turns into a cold spot in a small bathroom....NOT GOOD!
We do ALWAYS stack the studs over the joist on the inside partitions. That's where the return-airs and heats will come through...cutting the top plates and continuing up into the floor above.
blue
If you only need to move a stud or two, that's OK. If you frame the whole wall off, it will drive some of us crazy, even though it may not be the end of the world. If you made a boo boo and started the upstairs layout from the inside and the first floor from the outside, make sure you didn't goof on windows, partitions and chases that should line up.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
From where I'm from in NJ we stack all studs above the joists outside walls and inside walls. HVAC is run on the outside walls every day. If from where your from they do the same thing then stack them, it's no big deal or wasting time or adding more studs.
Joe Carola
Edited 5/20/2006 7:47 pm ET by Framer
In the midwest, we always tryed to continue the layout from one floor to the next whenever we could. outside and inside walls. it really does make everthing go smoother for everyone else down the line.
I even had an inspector tell me once that he always wanted to see that so that he could see a continuous load transfer all the way from the top to the bottom. (although I have my doubts as to how enforceable that might be.)" If I were a carpenter"
HVAC is run on the outside walls every day
Joe, that really surprises me, especially since you are in a cold climate!!!
Do you guys use wall heats or floor heats? We rarely use wall heats, except in bathrooms and usually they use toe kick heats if they can't find an inside wall to bring it up.
Are your cold air returns on the outside wall? That would seem to make for a very, very, very cold house.
You guys must not have an energy code to follow. We wouldn't pass the energy code if we ran all those hvac runs up the outside walls.
Something doesn't add up here....
blue
Hey Blue, round these parts we have the lines in the floor system and poke the vents under the windows in the floor.Drives the floor guy nuts but gets the heat along the outside with out haveing the lines in the exterior walls.Seems to me that you would have one or two major things in the exterior walls and moving a stud or two would be childs play vs. lineing up a whole house worth of studs to have clear chase for a pipe or two.Then again I deal in base and casing ,not studs and joists.Mike"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" Mitremike c. 1990" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Mike, it doesn't take a major effort to line everything up, if it needs to be lined up. We line up the first floor studs over the first floor joist, and the second floor joist stack on top of those too. But the second floor walls never are penetrated with the exception of a 3" stack pipe or two, so we just never bother to stack them.
We also place our heats under the windows. The return air registrs are on the opposite wall. The ducts run between the joists in the floor system.
I used to be very anal and stacked every stud and joist. I used to be able to look through any house, from any axis and see end to end. I was compulsive and one day I decided that I had to force myself to focus on what's important. I couldn't explain why stacking everything was so important, and there wasn't a logical explanation. Therefore, I started analyzing every wall to see if it needed to be stacked. If I worked in a different region, it might have some logic to it, but there is none here in MI.
blue
I would think that between the use of plates on tops and bottoms of the studs and the floor system, loads are pretty well spread and studs would not need to provide direct paths. I could see it in like a timber frame structure where the vertical units carry more load and that load is concentrated. Just my thoughts. Looking nice is fine, but once the sheething and drywall is on, who will see it?
"Do you guys use wall heats or floor heats?"We use both."Are your cold air returns on the outside wall?"Inside walls."Something doesn't add up here...."Blue,What doesn't add up is that you're making a big deal over stacking studs over the joists as if it's a major thing to do that's more time consuming and wasting material when you’re wrong. No one is being anal by stacking studs above floor joists. You act like it's an extra step involved when it's not.When I get done with my second floor shoes and plates I look over the side and put my framing square on the 16" center marks that are already on the outside of the first floor plates and run my framing square along side those marks and scribe the sides of my second floor top plates and I'm done. I do the same on the opposite wall and then I run a chalkline from both outside walls on the scribed 16" center marks and snap lines on the marks across the top plates and on all the inside walls, and now my inside walls are all laid out without even using a tape. What’s the big deal????If you have a rectangular or square shaped house and you pulled your 16" centers from left to right, why not just pull the wall 16" centers from left to right. What are you going to do, pull from right to left out of spite? Or is it because you forgot what side you pulled the centers from? Or do you have this little voice inside your head telling you that your anal if you stack a stud??Even though you said from where you’re from they don't put the duct work on the outside walls, what is the hell is the big deal? There's no extra mind thought or wasting time involved by stacking a stud over a joists."""The one thing that I won't agree on is that it is important to maintain 16" oc spacing, just to say that "I ALWAYS maintain 16" oc spacing". That rigid type of thinking occsionally causes illogical or impractical things to happen in a rough frame."""""""I've build hundreds of two story homes and I've rarely stacked the exterior wall studs over the joists. In most cases, if I did that, I'd be creating a substantial amount of wasted materials and time. I cannot see any reason to waste that lumber, or my time, just to follow some obsessive compulsion. In my earliest days of my carpenter career, I was compulsive like that, but I've learned to shed those baseless needs and instead focused my energies on things that matter."""Blue,You sound like someone is talking about a family member with that ridiculous rant. You really have to get over this stacking wall studs over joists thing and making it sound like its more work and wasting material when it's not. It's a rookie thing that is taught around here the first day you start laying out.This is what I mean about you. When someone doesn't do something your way, they are all of the things that you said above. You talk like every other framer out there is an A-HOLE!! Do you even own a tape or do you just sight your layout and just mark the wood where your laser eye beams on??? I know you just sight your plumbcuts on your rafters. So are you that good that you can just start your eye at the top of the plumbcut and run your laser eye down to the exact measurement of the rafter without a tape???. The way you talk you can do all of this Did you have a Framer from a different State string you up by your ba!!s somewhere a long time ago?Instead of talking DOWN to other framers as if your way is the best way, which it's not, you should be smart enough and respectful enough to realize that we do things different and just accept that.Joe Carola
Edited 5/21/2006 11:47 am ET by Framer
Joe, I'm not talking down to anyone. Perhaps you ought to look in the mirror when you start that crap. I asked some legitimate questions, that would cause me to understand what your doing...and you get pissed. I guess you must suffer from some inferiority complex. Sorry for trying to understand what you do in you state. Obviously you aren't interested in what we do here, and I'm alright with that. I don't build in jersey and you don't build in michigan. No big deal to me.
All I'm saying is that when the studs need to be stacked, stack them. When it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. Then, you counter with a condescending "It's a rookie thing that is taught around here the first day ". You are the one dealing in absolutes and I'm the only guy standing up and explaining the real reasons why things need to be done. If we all listened to the chorus, we'd all think houses would fall down if the studs weren't stacked.
I was gracious enough to agree that there are some reasons why I would stack them and I graciously stated that regional differences make a difference. Getting plywood to break all the way up would be good enough for me. Our rim joist never get sheathing over it, so each floor gets it's own sheathing. Each floor is independent.
The point is that not all studs need to be stacked. That's how I think and that's how I build. Whether I can cut a 9/12 plumb cut by eye has nothing to do with that. Sorry if you can't cut one, but I'm sure you've never tried. Try it, you might be surprised.
It's interesting that you've never asked where the wasted lumber or time is. It's obvoius that you don't want to know, and I'm alright with that too. There's no reason why we shouldn't continue wasting 50 to 60 studs on every house...after all we're only wasting ten billion board feet per year. It doesn't matter that if we'd have all started conserving lumber, like the good stewards we are supposed to be, the rainforests wouldn't be under such pressure.
Kill all the f'n owls...just make sure you stack everything!
There, now I agree with you...do you feel better?
blue
you git your studs from the rainforest? I'd think the shipping costs would kill you when you have all those good trees right there in your own state.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"If we all listened to the chorus, we'd all think houses would fall down if the studs weren't stacked."Blue,You have got to be one of the biggest Dickheads I've ever read on line before. Your the one that has your ba!!s in an uproar about stacking studs over joists, not me. It's a rookie thing to do and it's no big deal as I've said. It's not my problem you can't stack a stud over a joists because you don't know how or you forget where you lay out from or it makes your mind think to much and sizzle your brain, or there's no need too. You want to start your joist layout from right to left, fine. You want to start your stud layout from left to right, that's fine also.""It's interesting that you've never asked where the wasted lumber or time is. It's obvious that you don't want to know, and I'm alright with that too. There's no reason why we shouldn't continue wasting 50 to 60 studs on every house...after all we're only wasting ten billion board feet per year.""That's because it's not true and your full of sh!t on that one also and I don't need an explanation. The stud layout following the joist layout does not waste 50-60 studs per house, period!""I'm not talking down to anyone. Perhaps you ought to look in the mirror when you start that crap.""Another bunch of Bullsh!t. You talk down to everyone who doesn't do things the way you do or think the way you do. Just like the garbage you said in my last post to you and all the other condescending ways you answer people. This forum has nothing to do with people having thick skins. You just talk to people like their idiots saying that they have, "rigid type of thinking" "causes illogical or impractical things to happen" "just to follow some obsessive compulsion" "I was compulsive like that" "I've learned to shed those baseless needs"...All that garbage because of stacking studs over joists!!!!You think with all your logical thinking and everyone else's illogical thinking and the savings of trees and studs and all these short cuts and all these fast and efficient ways that you are so great at in your mind that you would be the most popular Framer out there and would have the biggest Framing company because you get the houses up the fastest and save everyone on material, that you would be rich by now and retired. The best yet is that you could've written a book maybe called "The Blue Book Of Framing" or something."Kill all the f'n owls...just make sure you stack everything!"Is that the little stacking studs over joists scary voice inside your head talking to you??????If you ever had to work on existing homes and rip roofs off and put second floors on or rip out half a roof and tie into the existing rafters with new rafters or anything else that takes time or thought, God help those houses and the rest of the trades because you would screw everyone up with the way you think. Your best place is out in the field on new construction where your mind doesn't have to think much at all!!!! Bing Bang Boom...Get er done!!!!Joe Carola
EDIT: I FORGOT TO POST THE PICTURE: IT'S IN THE FOLLOWING POST.
The stud layout following the joist layout does not waste 50-60 studs per house, period!
If you read carefully, without your veins popping, you'd find out that I'm not claiming that the studs are wasted only because of stacking. There are 50-60 studs wasted on average on many homes because of a wide variety of wasteful practices. When you multiply the wasted studs against the millions of homes that are built, I find it shameful. Then, when someone trys to explain how and when studs can be saved, they are lambasted with a vengeance as if they had done something personal to those that refuse to look at things with an open mind.
Here's a wall that will be set on the second floor. I rememer this wall well, because it took an hour to set it because it was out of reach of the crane. It's a side wall. When I teach a rookie to layout a wall like this (if a guy lasts a week on my job, I'll be teaching him how to layout the wall within the first week), I explain all the reasons why we might have to stack the studs. I'll show him that this is a sidewall and there will be NO HEATS running up through it. There will be no pipes running up through it. There is no seismic hardware running through it. It is a self contained, independent wall.
When we finally analyze the wall, and decide that we have free reign to layout the studs anyways we want, we talk about what we can do to help ourselves as framers. Instead of insisting on some needless "stack the studs" mandate, I challenge them to start the stud layout from a spot that might give them an advantage as they assemble the rest of the wall. I challenge my guys to be thinkers, instead of ordinary.
Most ordinary framers would automatically tell me that there isn't any logical starting spot, but I don't agree. For me, there is only one spot on this wall. I would definitely start on the far side and pull 16" centers from the far end.
What's so critical about pulling 16" center from the far end? The biggest timesaver and quality builder is finding the centers for the siding nailing. The second advantage is that the first sheet of plywood will be full and will be started from the far end. The plywood will easily be used to square this entire wall up if we stand it up vertically. The next big time saver will be the nailing of the siding. It's not uncommon for me to lay the siding, then hook my tape on the end of the wall and walk the length of the wall firing a nail at the red mark on my tape. This technique reduces the shiners that we might otherwise see when we rasie the wall. On a wall like this, I can pretty much guarantee 100% accuracy when nailing into the siding with a nail gun and that's something I strive for.
You can bitch and call me names and get angry at me all you want, that's okay, I'm not living my life to please you. I've already conceded that stacking studs is important in some situations. Now, if you'll concede that stacking the studs in this situation is slower, less efficient and results in less quality, I'll agree to let this namecalling be forgotten and we all can be happy that we can learn something from each other. Or, you can stick to your guns and you can keep trying to insinuate that only a raw rookie wouldn't stack all the studs in a house.
Open your mind and you won't be so angry. I'm not the least bit angry but I'd be much happier if you'd try to have a conversation, instead of being such a bullhead.
studs to you,
blue
Edited 5/22/2006 12:10 am ET by blueeyeddevil
Here's the attachment.
blue
do you pull 16 from one end or both ends. what happen if the wall does not fall on equal 16's. Do you have that odd one at a end or in a center.
Brownbagg, I generally pull from one end. I generally hold the tape in my left hand an mark, or nail with my right....so, I generally pull from the right end because it's easier to hold the tape and easier to mark the layout. I also generally mark center marks, instead of the more familar line with an x. In a simple race to get all the stud layouts on a wall, I'd probably save a minute or more compared to an xI guy, and probably more if the guy doesn't start his layout from the end.
Hey...minutes add up. When we get to the end of our career, it might be the difference between eating catnip or steak.
There is another lumber saving reason why pulling the 16" layout from one end saves lumber. Generally speaking, we only have to trim 1/2" off a plate to get it to break over a stud. If we stacked a layout, there will often be a 6 or 8" drop to get the joint to land on a stud. 8'' doesn't sound like a lot, but mulitply it by the number of houses and the number or walls framed and you have to agree it's no small amount.
blue
> I generally hold the tape in my left hand an mark, or nail with my right....so, I generally pull from the right end because it's easier to hold the tape and easier to mark the layout.
I try to stay in the habit of doing it the other way, pulling from left to right. That way the numbers on the tape are right side up.
Switching around is how I sometimes do things like marking "eighty-one MINUS three quarters" when I meant to do "eighty-one and three quarters." Having a consistent habit would make that less likely. But in remodeling you sometimes don't get much choice, because there's a house in the way. ;-)
-- J.S.
“Having a consistent habit…….”
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Funny you should speak of consistency. “If it’s all wrong, it’s alright”
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Ever heard that? What ever you do, just do it all the same. That would be a case and point for stacking……., wouldn’t it?
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I’ve been a casual reader of this somewhat amusing thread and I guess the bottom line here would be if your work was acceptable enough to get paid for...
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Spaced ??????/ or Stacked????? If you got paid, who cares? The plumbers and electricians and ___ need to earn their money too! Lol.
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John, I was amused to learn that the numbers were only one way on a tape. Someone had a thread that was saying that tapes are for lefthanders. I really didn't know what they meant and I had to go look at a tape to understand. Evidently the upside down numbers don't register in my mind or bother me, which I'm thankful for LOL! Doing 16" center layouts, I usually am focused on the little red marks though.
I do have a lot of trouble transposing the plans though. In order for me to function, I usually have to orient the plans the same way the house is. Reverse plans don't generally throw me for a loop though, but I have a lot of trouble with angeld walls on reverse plans. I have to hold them up to the sun to get my brain working.
blue
I'm the same way about having to hold the paper the same way as the house. Reverse plans are a problem I don't have, because I'm doing my own drawings in AutoCad. If I need a mirror image, I print one out.
-- J.S.
The guy from whom I learned the little i know called that 'Waltering' the plans because he learned it froma guy named Walter. I do it for everything and everybody.
> Do you have that odd one at a end or in a center.
You want it at the end. If you arbitrarily change spacing in the middle someplace, you make trouble for yourself or whoever else may hang cabinets or paneling or whatever in that room in the future. You want to be able to depend on measuring from one stud to find the rest. If you find one oddball spacing, you worry that there may be others.
-- J.S.
“””If you read carefully, without your veins popping,”””Don’t flatter yourself because you don’t make my veins pop. You just make me shake my head in disbelief sometimes."""I started analyzing every wall to see if it needed to be stacked.""""""I explain all the reasons why we might have to stack the studs. I'll show him that this is a sidewall and there will be NO HEATS running up through it. There will be no pipes running up through it. There is no seismic hardware running through it. It is a self contained, independent wall.""""""When we finally analyze the wall, and decide that we have free reign to layout the studs anyways we want, we talk about what we can do to help ourselves as framers.""" """I challenge my guys to be thinkers, instead of ordinary.""""""In most walls, it's very easy to quickly determine if there will be a need for mechanicals and that should be done on EVERY WALL. If the determination is made that no mechanicals will be penetrating that wall, then the need to stack studs over joists doesn't really come into the decison."""Who's Anal?!!!!!Look how much time you’re wasting with all that analyzing and explaining something that doesn't even have to be explained. I don't analyze anything with the stud layout, it just gets stacked and I don't have one thing to worry about or analyze because if a duct has to go into one of my outside wall bays, it does without a problem.If you just stacked them you wouldn't have to do any analyzing at all!!!You’re making yourself and your guys think to much about something your making a big deal over that's not even a big deal even for you, even though they don't run the duct work on your outside walls.I do analyze where the waste lines go and will move joists out of the way and therefore move the studs out of the way all the time. That's something any good framer will do anyway is always layout for the plumber.Do you layout for waste lines or do you just stick the joists wherever they go and head them off later?"""I've build hundreds of two story homes and I've rarely stacked the exterior wall studs over the joists. In most cases, if I did that, I'd be creating a substantial amount of wasted materials and time. I cannot see any reason to waste that lumber, or my time, just to follow some obsessive compulsion."""Again, how is stacking studs over joists wasting all this material and time???"""I've always been amazed at how fixated some carpenters will be with their 16" center layouts."""I'm amazed at how fixated you are about purposely going out of you way and analyzing how to not stack a stud over a joist."""There is another lumber saving reason why pulling the 16" layout from one end saves lumber. Generally speaking, we only have to trim 1/2" off a plate to get it to break over a stud."""Now, why do you think that or even break the plate over a stud? Is that code from where you’re from?“””I rememer this wall well, because it took an hour to set it because it was out of reach of the crane. “””That wall didn’t look that big. If you knew the crane couldn’t get to it and you were going to waste, why didn’t you just build it on the deck and just lift it up with an extra pair of hands?"""Then, when someone trys to explain how and when studs can be saved, they are lambasted with a vengeance as if they had done something personal to those that refuse to look at things with an open mind."""Have you ever sat back and read some of your responses to people and the condescending way you answer people and the way you lambaste them or even thought about the way you talk to your employees?Your way is not the only way and my way is not the only way but try to talk to people like they’re human and not talk to everyone who does things different than you like they’re idiots and we’ll all have a civil conversation.Joe Carola
Look how much time you’re wasting with all that analyzing and explaining something that doesn't even have to be explained. I don't analyze anything with the stud layout, it just gets stacked and I don't have one thing to worry about or analyze because if a duct has to go into one of my outside wall bays, it does without a problem.
If you just stacked them you wouldn't have to do any analyzing at all!!!
Joe, spending time teaching the younguns is just part of the deal. I was taught by a guy that dealt in absolutes, maybe someone just like you. When I became the teacher, I decided that I'd do it different. I don't deal in absolutes, instead, I teach my guys to think. I want them to know WHY something has to be done the way I'm showing them.
Your guys know that they have to stack, my guys have the freedom to speed up their framing and sheathing and siding process. It works for you because you don't do any of the sheathing or the siding. Maybe if that part of the job was critical to your financial success, you'd be more cognizant of the extra minutes that "automaticall stacking" takes.
I noticed that you haven't acknowledged that our simple little tip is faster and adds quality without adding time. You seem to want to ignore the positive reasons we have for "not stacking".
"""There is another lumber saving reason why pulling the 16" layout from one end saves lumber. Generally speaking, we only have to trim 1/2" off a plate to get it to break over a stud."""
Now, why do you think that or even break the plate over a stud? Is that code from where you’re from?
Yes. All top plates have to break over a stud. All doubled top plates also have to break over a stud. That reason alone is reason enough for me to want the studs on four foot modules from one end. I place my plates together and nip 3/4" off one end and then I know that I'm on a center of a stud. Sometimes the linial is of a length that I don't need to nip it.
Do you layout for waste lines or do you just stick the joists wherever they go and head them off later?
I check for plumbing issues before I frame the joist. I've never had a stud be an issue for plumbing so I've never checked for that. If a stud is in the way, it will be easily moved with a whack of a hammer.
That wall didn’t look that big. If you knew the crane couldn’t get to it and you were going to waste, why didn’t you just build it on the deck and just lift it up with an extra pair of hands?
That wall isn't that big and the crane can easily lift it....until I boomed down past the point of tipping! I knew it would be heavy when I boomed it out as far as I had to go, but I misjudged the weight and if I had stubbornly proceeded without changing my techniqe, I would have tipped the crane over and layed it down on the house. When the outriggers leave the ground behind me, I'm smart enough to slow things down.
The easiest solution would have been to grab the wall with that Skytrak, but I chose a differnent method and it ended up taking us some time to get the wall position safely. The Skytrak would have posed some different challenges (tight muddy working conditions) so no choice would have been easy.
As far as rasing it by hand....that's a lot heavier than you think. It would be simple with two walljacks, but I wouldn't raise a wall like that by hand anymore. I haven't done that in ten years and I'm not going to start that again. My back is shot from being a Superman and I don't wish that on any of my young protoge's.
Have you ever sat back and read some of your responses to people and the condescending way you answer people and the way you lambaste them or even thought about the way you talk to your employees?
Yes I do. I don't feel like I'm condescending to anyone, but maybe my cynical humor doesn't translate well. For instance, I've made tons of comments about speed squares but I've always just been ribbing someone. I don't seriously think they should toss theirs out because we all have our own preferences.
I did seriously give some thought to why you think I was condescending to you and I was genuinely surprised. When I commented about carpenters that are being anal about 16", I was referring to myself in my earlier years, as well as carpenters in general who are notorious for letting "rules of thumbs" guide them. You have to admit that if you delve into the reasons why many carpenters do things, their answer is often " becasue that's how my grandaddy did it". They also tend to look down their noses at something that is different than what their granddaddy did. I tend to lump a good 90% of all carpenters into the same generality group of being anal, so when I used that term, I certainly wasn't thinking of you personally.
I didn't start talking anything personal to you, till I posted responses to you. If you go back and look at this thread and any thread similar to it, you'll find that almost every responder automatically recommends "staying on 16" 0C" and "stacking". They do so without giving any regards to why it might not be that important and I'm just one of those kind of guys that has re-evaluated every single item I was taught by my grandaddy. It's my nature to challenge conventional wisdom. Nothing personal, it's just who I am.
Perhaps I've come to my conclusion about the overyly obsessive need to stack (by 90% of carpenters) because I've had to work in a lot of custom situations that had us using 19" centered joists on 16" center studs. I've worked with 24" center trusses on 16" centered studs. I've worked with 12" centered joists, yadda, yadda, yadda. After working through the problems associated with odd systems like that, at some point I realized that if we can make things work in those situations, it will work in "normal" situations.
I'm not out to make you look bad or to make you change your ways. I've been around long enough to know better than that. This thread was started by someone asking a legitimate question about layout and I was/am simply a guy that is open to different ways and when I see a steady parade of 90%er's pounding it into the guys head that "stacking is the only way to go", I tend to present the other point of view on the merits of everything they say.
There isn't and wasn't anything personal being shot your way, until you directly started the discussion with me. I'm all for civil discussion, even if you don't appreciate my techniques. Most 90%ers don't approve of me or my techniques, so that's nothing new for me.
blue
Here in earthquake country the civil engineer usually specifies stacked and the simpson metal hold down hardware has to be stacked to keep the load path straight.
Our rim joist never get sheathing over it, so each floor gets it's own sheathing. Each floor is independent.
Blue,
Now that is interesting to me, because here in seismic zone D2 (soon to be E according to some) we try and avoid that so we don't have to add straps, holddowns, or some kind of metal connection to connect the two floors.
We almost always use sheathing 1' bigger than the walls so we can split it on the rim because in most cases that eliminates other hardware.
Framer's right. I built in NJ for 15 years. The heat almost always ran in the outside walls. I think it's dumb approach now, but that's how it's done.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Andy, even if the heats run in the outside walls, they turn when they get to the second floor deck because Joe said they use floor heats. Since they turn when they hit the second floor joist, there's no reason that the upper studs need to stack.
Alls I'm saying is that each wall is independent and there's no "rule" that says they need to be stacked.
Not stacking unless necessary,
blue
Not always do they turn it for in the floor heats. If there's AC, many times the 2nd floor supplies would be in the ceiling.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
If I remember right, you're building a 3 or 4 story structure.
The design requirements for that many stories may very well specify stacking studs and floor joists, depending on loads.
For most residential structures with double plates it isn't required, while single top plates do.
In addition to what the others have said, stacking the framing makes any metal strapping easier to install, if needed, for sheer connections between floors that are often nailed to doubled studs on both levels. I'd be surprised if any building that tall wouldn't require some sheer straps with either IRC or UBC in the vast majority of building regions.
When I notice framing that does not line up it tells me a lot about the builder. It is always a selling point in my favor. Inspectors will notice sloppy work and it will give them more reason to look very carefully.
It would take a very experienced framer/housebuilder to determine which walls should be stacked and which don't need to be. When in doubt, stack it. We only frame 2-3 houses per year and attempt to stack because for me it actually requires less thought and therefore less time. we sheath over the rim so it helps that. Also, we also occasionally run something in the outside wall because of the open concept thing and therefore stay out of trouble in the exterior wall case. As a minor bonus to electricians esp. we try to nail our double fj etc under a stud. There is also something to be said for the neatness of a stacked job.
Ian
Truehaven, I agree with everything you said. Everything.
The difference is that you are doing 2-3 jobs a year and it really won't amount to much time either way. I've spent a lifetime shaving seconds and minutes and hours off the job, every day and I simply refuse to spend an extra minute doing something, unless there's a very good reason for doing so. Many times, this approach has gotten us done a day sooner and often we've gotten the next job, while another crew has to walk and find another sub. This sometimes translates into many thousands or tens of thousands of dollars per year.
For instance, when we set our second floor walls, no one will ever know if they are stacked or not with the studs below. They usually can't get a sightline. But Occasionally, we have to set some walls where there isn't a plywood deck system in place to block the view. In those cases, I stack...not for structural reasons, but for aethetics. I fully understand the mentality of making something look good, even if it's just as good as a different way. One of my favorite sayings is "perception is reality". That means if an outsider perceives that our work is substandard, it IS substandard. We work hard to eliminate practices that deliver poor perceptions.
blue,
Now that everone has calmed down a bit, I'll throw in my 2 cents for what it's worth{about 2 cents}. We also run into a lot of jobs that spec out 16", 19.2", and 24" centers. There are certainly areas that need to stack, but alot of times it's not structurally required or possible with different centers between walls joists and trusses. I do a fair amount of design work for our custom home jobs and always try to utilize 2' increments whenever possible for floor plan layouts. This way, as long as everything in walls and floor framing is 16" o.c. stacking happens with no waste of time or materials as long as your starting points are consistent.
If we aren't involved at design level, or 2' incr. aren't possible, I will stack studs over joist unless there is a good reason not to, such as, excesive lumber waste, different joist spacing, etc. just because at the siding level, my stud location isn't changing part way up the wall, taking time up relocating studs when siding.
Bottom line, whatever sytem you use may be influenced by where you build, how you were taught, and what works best for you, which I think you said earlier. By the way, speaking of wasted lumber, we recently spent a few months framing some college dorm buildings using pre-panelized wall sections provided by an off-site panelization company. Walls ran from 4'-16' in length, 8' tall. There were a large number of 16' walls with a 6'wx 5'h window rough opening about 9" from one end of wall so they were solid 2x6 studs the whole 9" [6-2x6] and met each other at those ends. When erected you had 12 2x6 studs side by side. These buildings were 3 story's high, over 300' long with this happening 36 times per building times 3 buildings. Lot's of other waste too. A real shame!
It does help to be calm to have discussions Bish. That's when we can actually glean some information from the topic.
Around here, it is very common to have brick on the lower level and siding on the upper. That causes the deck to get bumped out 4" on all four outide walls. It's very common. At some point in my career, I started looking at that 4" space at every corner upstairs and started thinking about it. I finally decided that I could safely eliminate that space just by giving up my complusion and shifting the layout over.
The 4" doesn't sound like much, but it is a huge nuisance. We could never get our hammers and nails in there to properly and tightly nail the corners together (our sheathing was already on, so we couldn't reach outside and do it), and I'm sure the electricians didn't like fighting their drill and wire in there either. The insulator can't be too thrilled about always having a 4" piece too!
None of those reasons adds up to any significant amount of wasted time, even if you count the extra stud, but then again, there really wasn't a reason why I shouldn't shift the layouts. So I did. The house didn't fall down. It passed inspection. I didn't have to cut any heat holes (only two in 30 years), there weren't any pipe issues ( a 4'' pipe can find a hole even if the layouts are offset). Basically, it didn't matter! And it doesn't matter now!
The waste in your panelization experience is somewhat comical because they claim that they are creating big savings by this method. There's some truth to every claim, but nothing is as good as it sounds.
blue