I know this has been asked a ton of times here and on johnbrige, but I’m still confused.
I’m going to be tiling the walls of my shower (CBU backer) and I’ve bought several things to apply them. I’m using 6×6 ceramic tiles. Which is the right/best?
Mapei Premixed Thinset Mortar (unopened so I can stil return it)
Type 1 Wall and Floor tile Mastic (I used this on the wall tiles around another bathtub)
Versabond Fortified Thin-set Mortar (I used this on the shower floor tiles)
Ultraflex 2 Modified Mortar (I used this on the bathroom floor tiles)
I’ve read the advice to not use the Premixed Thinset because it’s not very water resistant. Should I just use the Versabond?
Thanks for clearing it up for me.
Replies
I'd use the Ultra first.
Versabond #2
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Mastic works fine for walls. fiber-tape all joints in the CBU and fill with mastic as you would drywall. I always fill screw holes as well. Let it dry, overnight is best. A few hours will do in good drying conditions.
Set tile on cured or almost cured base. Take good care of detailing around pipes. This is where problems start.
Never had a failure in thirty-odd years. Maybe I'm just lucky.
Good luck to you, too
Alan
"Maybe I'm just lucky."
You're just lucky.
Mastic isn't "just fine" for shower walls.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
If I was REALLY lucky I would be throwin' spitballs at you from behind my IMac wide screen liquid crystal screen as I counted the dividends from my latest lottery win.As it is, I'm merely a seasoned carpenter who has done renos for 30 or so years. Probabley made some mistakes, KNOW I made a few. One of them was not consulting you on tile laying in a shower. Thanks, and I'll send all my dissatisfied customers on to you.Oh, sorry, that file is empty
well ... at least you're open to criticism and new ideas.
Keep doing everything the way ya did for the last 30 years ... why start doing it the right way now?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Hey, Jeff,I am definitely warm to new ideas. Cement Backer was a new concept to me about 20 years ago. I looked at it and I embraced it.What is this business about if it's not about new ideas? You have to build upon the past. I think that one of my main advantages in being a renovator is that I've had to fix so many buildings that failed.
alanj,OK, you've been doing it that way for years without problems. Your experience does fly in the face of what has been the accepted dogma here for as long as this board has existed (8 years or more).The dogma being that mastic should never be used for tile installations in wet areas (particularly showers).Given the above, could you share with us what brand of mastic you have been using to get such good results??Not that I'll be changing my practices, but I am curious.Thanks,
Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
When I was at the TCA school in SC, one of the teachers had us demo a section of a wall laid with mastic about 6 months earlier, and it had been exposed to quite a bit of water. The tiles just popped off and the mastic had re-emulsified--turned back into goo.Mastic is fine for most walls, but honestly guys, does not belong anywhere near water, certainly not in a shower. If ya'all want to violate all the TCA rules and use Mastic, then you go guy. I use VersaBond, no need for all the acrylic and latex and super-modified stuff. At $15 a bag, it is cheap.Start with the second row from the bottom, use a laser or water level to set your 1st course, and prop up that 1st course, with tile boxes or do it the night before. Then just use spacers and go up from there. Come back later and finish the bottom course, which may have to have some cuts along the shower floor unless you are perfect.Hope you have a pre-slope in the shower and poly behind the backerboard, dude.
Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
thanks guys. Well, with a few distractions and some "help" from a friend, this is how it's coming. Got a little less than half of the walls done. Not my finest work, but it'll do. Next weekend, I'll finish, and put in a niche in the back wall.Boris, regaring the bottom course, it took me forever to figure out the tile layout. Figured out how to run the narrow 3x6 band directly centered on the diverter, then ran a level line at the top of the bottom course. Then trimmed them, then laid them and ran the successive courses above. Not sure if I got enough of a space below the bottom course. How important there? Oh, and you'll see that I've got plenty of pre-slope in the floor. I think I measured wrong and it's 3/8 or 1/2 per foot.Here's one detail if you have the time: The floor drain is centered on 4-2x2 tiles, but of course it's round. How should I fill the gap? Just install the drain with some sort of temporary protection on top, them grout around, removing the protection when the grout dries?Thanks again for the advice.
Yeah, that bottom course is a little funky, I see. Unless you are really anal, it still looks fine to me. I save the bottom course for last, and do it first thing in the morning when I am fresh and patient. Those are the cuts that people notice. However, I will share a trade secret with you---don't tell anyone else----"Grout is your friend"Yep, a nice neutral, in this case off white grout, will hide most imperfections. Grout that sucker, and all the stuff will disappear. I grout corners and the bottom course, but most will tell you to caulk it. If you caulk it, use a sanded caulk to match your grout, like Spectralock.As for the drain, use nippers to cut the 2x2 tiles. I use a Sharpie to mark the layout and and just nip away at the 4 tiles. It may take about 2-5 minutes per tile. You should be able to get it within a 16th. An eighth would be fine. Just go slow, don't try to take too much off in one nip, and work at it. Then grout, not caulk, that space. Nippers are a sloppy tool, but I find they are the only tool you can really use. If you are a perfectionist on these cuts (I am), use a grinder to clean up the cuts after nipping, to get it to the 16th. Wear goggles.Good Luck.Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Good tips Boris. I may try that trick with the bottom course on the right wall. The photo makes the lines look MUCH worse than they actually are. In fact, they all look fine, just some of the tiles don't lay completely flat. Maybe my friend, Mr Grout, will make the imperfections disappear.As for the drain...I was afraid you were going to say something like that...:(
The drain really isn't much of a problem. Just mark the tiles with a Sharpie, plop yourself down in front of the TV, line up a couple of beers, a pair of nippers, a waste basket, and within 20 minutes you will have a perfect drain. Get it close and the grout will do the rest.Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Getting closer... It only took me about 10 hours and laying the tile twice on that damn niche!!! I guess the adage "measure twice, cut once" applies to to tiling, not just carpentry.Even with all that, I'm pleased. Next time, I'll make the wall for the niche using 2x6 studs though.
Good work. I hope it is slightly pitched and you used Red Guard or Laticrete 9235 to seal the CBU below that tile.Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Boris, I took your advice and carefully trimmed the tiles around the drain so they fit snuggly. You're right, that was the way to go. Also, I used a rubber membrane under the mortar bed and sloped it too.Here's the question for tomorrow's project: how should I finish the bottom corner between the wall and the floor? Boris, you mentioned grout, but with the white wall grout and the gray floor grout, how do you do it? Run the wall grout in the corner or the floor grout. Either way, it seems messy and one will bleed into the other. Or, will some simple white, silicone caulk do the trick?And if you don't mind one more: What's the best way to apply sealer to the grout. I've used a 2" disposable paint brush, a sponge brush (definitely not the way to go), and neither are very easy. Never used one of the foam roller applicator. Your suggestions?Thanks again, all
Hope you don't mind me bumping this one...
Didn't see it. Glad to be bumped.I use only porceline tile on showers, if the customer will let me, so it really matters not what you use, as the porceline will not absorb a wit of the sealer. Use a paint brush, roller, sponge, a small bucket. It don't matter. It is likely that it will just stand around and only be absorbed by the grout. Wipe if off in about 15-20 minutes. Use a good quality sealer like Aquamix Gold 15, which is a penetrating sealer. It is about $80 a gallon but will seal the grout. Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Thanks!
What do you think about the wall/floor corner? I was thinking of buying some matching gray caulk and using it. I read (I think on JB) that it works well to push instead of pull the caulk into the joint, and to use tape to keep it clean.
I use the matching grout at intersecting corners ...
and at dissimlar materials ...
I think Boris uses grout in corners.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I grout it all. Its not right, and most people will tell you to caulk it but I grout it.My difference is that the surface of the CBU is coated with a trowel on waterproofing, Laticrete 9235, which with the fiberglass matting, goes over all corners and forms a single mass. Therefore, I don't seem to get the movement that a regular CBU shower has, and grout always works. But I think you would probably well served to caulk it.Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Hello Rich,I usually use Mapei type 1.I believe attention to detail is more important than the type. Tape (fglass), and "mudding" with mastic. Sealing all holes carefully.Good grouting on a stable substrate.Alan
I agree on the mastic i have used it for the past 10 years and never had a call back even with a steam unit shower and no problems I agree with taping seams and screw holes
Either of the dry-mix modified thinset mortars (ultraflex 2 or versabond) will do nicely.
Don't use the pre-mixed thinset. No reason to.
Don't use mastic. To me, mastic is okay for decorative tile installations, but thinset is much better in wet areas. Personally, I never use mastic when tiling.
I have used mastic on walls in damp areas and gotten away with it--but it's not the best way, especially for a shower--which is not damp, but rather wet. I don't do that anymore. The small extra cost and trouble to use thinset is more than worth the return in quality and peace of mind.
I don't use pre-mixed thinset. Never even heard of the stuff till now, actually.
Versabond is good; the Ultra stuff has a very good rep. too. There's also a brand called Fullflex I have used which performs very well.
Boris Yeltsin is the hot tile guy here. If he stops by you'll get the definitive answer.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Thanks guys. You cleared it up pretty well.Now I have my day all figured out. Mixing that Versabond and laying tiles!
You're doing the right thing. Don't use mastic in a shower:
http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17256
Billy