Got a question or two for you guys union or not…
My son is an apprentice carpenter 2nd year, one day he comes home burned out from carrying those dry walls 5/8X4X12 sheets in a rainy day and full of mud. He was soaked and caked with mud. He tells me he had to carry them himself.
I know those are darn heavy for even myself on those 5/8X4X8 sheets and I would have a helping hand. What are your rules on that kind of carrying system?
Next he had to carry all those joist that are 2X12X maybe 14 footers himself again. Got a bruse blue sore on both of his arms and a blister on the shoulder. I thought those union jobs were working for and helping one another? Again what’s the rules?
A worried Dad and one time carpenter.
Replies
i am a union carp. and my thought is that his foreman or super is being a jack off. and besides first years should be humping that stuff. just kidding.
on my crew ( i am a jack off foreman too) the journeymen and the apprentices all carry their own material. thats it. it is not up for discussion. all my guys know that and they respect that. the apprentices are there to learn a trade. we get paid a very good wage and there are to many journeymen in the union that are not even good enough to sweep a floor.
i ance had a guy on my crew that was telling the kids to get his pouches out of the lockup, unroll his cord and set up his perry scaffold so he could get to work. i called the office and within two hours he was paid and sent home to never return. this was a large commercial job and he thought he would be there or wanted to be ther for a very long time. because the next day he came back with a b a and they both told me that he was coming back to work. so i call the office and tell them to let him back i'll make him quit by break and he did.
sorry to get off track. but tell your son to speak up. if the foreman is being a dikc then have him talk to the super about being transfered to another job. if the super is the dikc then either speak up and be fired possibly (laid off) or quit and sign in with the hall. stay away from a grievance because that will make it worse. but he needs to do something because when he makes jw and he needs to produce and cant and gets asked why and responds with all i did through apprenticeship was mule rock and lumber he will just end up a hall rat.
besides apprentices are always in demand because companies still bill them as journeymen and make more money so they try to keep them to at least forth year.
honestly i hope everything works out for him.
tell him to hang in there for me but its his decision.
oh btw maybe move this to general discussion and maybe get more responses.
Edited 5/12/2007 10:52 pm ET by dirtysanchez
when i was in the union i worked a lotta jobs in which we were not allowed to pack very much, The super would scream and say thats what a laboror is for, I always got my own tools and cords though, One time i was on a job far away with some pretty mixed up laborors, The super came and asked me to wire brush the stairs with a big grinder, I was the trim carpenter, He said 3 guys had the grinder get away from them and he was stuck, I did it for him and he helped me later
I agree. 12' sheets of drywall should be banned.
I had to carry some myself once and I asked "Why can't you drive the truck on the lawn to cut the distance?".. And the reply was they didn't want to hurt the lawn. I guess grass blades are more important.
~Peter
They are going to hurt him. Sounds like the guys he's working for were brought up the wrong way and don't care, They see it as tough love or some such crap. Ask a lot of guys with herniated disks and bad ankles and such what they could have done different to prevent their condition. They will tell you that they wouldn't have humped heavy loads like that when they were younger.
I once had a boss tell me because he could make me do anything he wanted. ( He thought he owned his employees.) That he could make me dig a ditch with a spoon. I replied in a calm factual tone. "Go ahead pay me full wages to dig a ditch with a spoon. I'll make tons of money doing less. And my lawyer and I will have your company by the end of the month." He snapped out of his little power trip. And I made lead man soon after. He was a jerk the whole time I worked for him. But he never gave me too much guff after that.
Wop bop a loo bop a lop bam boom!
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
Call the laborers B.A.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Thank you Calvin for bringing that point up. Around here a carpenter hadn't better be pushing a broom, or carrying any material further than 15' feet.
I was tending a carpenter once that was a real jack, the Forman had to give him a different partner everyday cause no one could stand him. He tried getting over on me one day by kicking a box of screws off the roof and looking pretend dumbfounded that I didn't have any screws ready to hand him. "I'm outta screws laborer!" I told him maybe he should be more careful and got him more screws---that time. However the next day rather than being a diligent laborer and placing the 16' soaking wet woulmonized 2"X12"s end to end along the parapet wall they we're being installed on so he could just go along on his knees and screw them off, I gave the screws to him. I placed one every 15' leaned on end from the ground against the wall. You could just lay on your belly at the roof edge and grab the board by hooking the claw of your hammer into it to pull it up.
Our Forman knew about the day before, and how I generally tend carpenters so when this guy tried to bitch about it to him he just laughed when I pulled my tape out confirming the material was with in 15' and walked away. After that I ended up being the only guy who would work with this carpenter all day and ended up getting along fine with him and his permanent partner even as a laborer. It was just all about a power trip and he bit off more than he could chew and ended up respecting me.
I went through a full four-year-apprenticeship, and I’ve been a journeyman for several years. If someone told me to lug 4x12x5/8 sheets by myself through the mud and rain, here’s what I would say: No.
After that they would probably yell, scream, and swear. I would simply look at them like they were an amusing animal behind a window at the zoo. Then when they were finished I would say: No. I might explain that “I can’t,†because it’s too heavy to carry–especially at any distance–without help, but the answer would still be basically the same: No. This example is clear cut.
These are the generally accepted standards: Any drywall sheets less than 12’ in length, you carry alone. Any drywall sheets 12’ or more in length you carry with a helper. (Personally, I will handle 4x12x5/8 sheets by myself when I hang drywall, although I won’t carry it that way for much of a distance. The foreman is usually also impressed when he sees me do this as well.)
Loose 2x4’s are carried 5 at a time alone no matter how long they are. Banded 2x4’s are carried 10 at a time alone. 2x8x16’s are carried 2 at a time. (I will often carry 3 2x8x16’s at a time, although it’s not expected of me.) A 2x12x14 is carried one at a time, although carrying it alone is not considered unreasonable. Carrying a lot of them through the mud and rain alone, especially over a great distance, is another story.
While these are not written standards, anyone who’s running a job knows that this is what to expect.
How many 2x12x14’s were their, a dozen or so? How far did he have to carry them, a hundred feet? Under these circumstances I would ask for help, but if I didn’t receive it, I would simply take my time. It’s hard to say without specifics.
It basically comes down to this: What’s more important to you, your job, or your health? Anytime you refuse to do something your boss tells you, you’re risking your job. No matter what any non-union-guy tells you, your union-boss can lay you off at the drop of a hat. On the other hand, no matter what any union-guy tells you, the BA’s not going to kick an apprentice out of the union for refusing to do something unreasonable. You’ll be able to get another job. What your son will have to decide time and again is: “Is it worth the risk?†You will be risking your job today if you say no, but will you be risking a disability and possibly your job in the future if you say yes?
-T
Your son must be in a union apprenticeship since there are hardly any available in residential work. If he is complaining about carrying lumber, they might be busting his chops with the sheetrock. New guys are going to get "tested" to see how they stack up.
It would not be unusual to have to handle 5/8"x4'x8' plywood on a roof, or 2"x12'x16' rafters on a scaffolding, 80# bundle of shingles on a 40' ladder. If you are doing your job, you won't have any trouble sleeping nights. Until you learn when and where and how to place your hands, feet, knees, you are probably going to get pinched, bruised and cut. It's a part of the job but the frequency drops off significantly when you wise up.
It takes a few years for a carpenter to get in shape. Those first few sheets of 5/8" CDX, in the wind, are a chore for a fresh Marine out of Paris Island. After 1500, you learn to move them without much effort. You also don't put yourself in a stupid position.
Carpentry isn't an easy job. The pay is low, the benefits are few, the work conditions are whatever the weather brings, the boss wants it done yesterday, it's physically demanding, potentially dangerous and not for your average person. It's not only tough when you are young but it gets tough again when you are older. I'd highly recommend getting a college degree before entering the construction business. The work is a little different when you wear the white hats and so is your future.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Never worked union myself, but I doubt what they are having him do meets union regs.
I'd never ask someone to haul a 12' board solo. I might do it, but I've been doing it for years and know how.
Two guys on a sheet is likely just as fast and less likely to see damage. (To the rock, or the mule)
The lumber however is a one man job....up to 16 footers anyhow. Anything longer than that becomes hard to stand, or even stack efficiently.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I was a union carpenter who became a union contractor and ran a mid size company for over 20 years. Any apprentice is going to get the sh-t work, that is the way it is. That said your son should refuse any work that endangers or might reasonably endanger him, period. No job is worth getting hurt over. From a contractors perspective, had I come on the job site and seen one man carrying 12' rock through mud by himself the person in charge of the job would get one warning and then be laid off. Reason 1: While it sounds and is self serving the cost of workman's compensation insurance is based on your experience mod. (which is based on claims made) and if your mod. gets too high you become uncompetitive and can be put out of business or at the least take a hit in your profitability. Reason 2: In my experience it is always cheaper to have any significant amount of the drywall stocked by the supplier than to use even apprentices to stock it. As far as it being laborers work, well though I employed laborers I never had too many moral problems using carpenters particularly apprentices on the laborer's work, if I could get away with it which was most of the time.
First week of my apprenticship, my boss explained that carpentry is hard work. He also explained the concept of aging gracefully. I appreciated that! I'll carry as much as I can, but no way in hell am I going to bust my back on a 12' sheet of 5/8 drywall! You'd might as well sell your soul to the devil! His forman sounds like a jerk. Maybe they don't like him for whatever reason? Miss the last guy, and going to give the new guy a hard time? I'd say,, keep him at it for now, but get his resume out fast! Just my thoughts!Its a horse thing!