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Discussion Forum

Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters Suck

Don | Posted in General Discussion on January 31, 2007 05:47am

Happened again. Had a lightbulb in ceiling of bedroom burn out. AFCI sensed it as an arc – which it was. Shut itself off. Swell – now we are sitting in the dark.

How the Heck do we fix that sort of thing. Sort of the law of unintended consequences.

Don Reinhard

Don Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
“If it scratches, I etch it!”
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Replies

  1. Parco | Jan 31, 2007 05:53am | #1

    We've fought that problem from home owners for several years.  So now after  a couple of call backs I replace them with the standard non-arc fault.

  2. User avater
    rjw | Jan 31, 2007 06:04am | #2

    At least two of the AFCI's has been recalled: Square D QO¯ and Homeline¯ Arc Fault Interrupter circuit breakers, both manufactured by http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml05/05035.html

    You might check to see if yours is one of those. Additional info at:
    http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml05/05035.html


    What made the teaching of Jesus different and apparently so hard to accept then as now, was that it required a critical reassessment of the structures and values and attitudes of human society as his listeners and followers shared in it.

    - Monika K. Hellwig

    from Jesus: The Compassion of God (The Liturgical Press, 1983)

    1. Don | Jan 31, 2007 06:16am | #3

      Bob: That doesn't solve the problem of false arc detection - like a bulb burning out. There is a safety problem here - leaving people in the dark when one bulb burns out. Next thing you know, the code will require two light circuits in lighting for every bedroom. Then a law to require that they both be turned on!The Nanny State strikes again! I am starting to perceive that the improved safety from AFCI's is not cost effective.DonDon Reinhard
      The Glass Masterworks
      "If it scratches, I etch it!"

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Jan 31, 2007 08:04am | #4

        It gets worse.The code alreadys is requiring a style that will detector more types of arc's starting in 2008.AND THEY DON'T EVEN MAKE ANY YET.And the draft 2008 NEC requires them on all circuits in a house except those that require GFCI's. Now you see why a lot of area's delete that section when they adopt the code..
        .
        A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

        1. atrident | Jan 31, 2007 11:54pm | #14

            Do you think this has anything to do with having manufactures on the NEC board?

          1. User avater
            maddog3 | Feb 01, 2007 01:18am | #16

            ..absolutely, it was SqD along with... Siemens ??.......who submitted the proposal that the AF breakers be installed for the entire house....... SqD sits on that Code Making Panel.The fix is in the ...we can only wait and see what the Panel decides.

            .

            .

            ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?

      2. User avater
        rjw | Jan 31, 2007 10:40am | #5

        According to what I've read, the UL standard is supposed to allow for bulbs burning out.I try to follow this stuff, and this is the first report I've read that they trip on that event. And I can't find anything on this with google (other than the design aspect of avoiding those flase trips.)Are you aware of any other reports that this occurs?

        What made the teaching of Jesus different and apparently so hard to accept then as now, was that it required a critical reassessment of the structures and values and attitudes of human society as his listeners and followers shared in it.

        - Monika K. Hellwig

        from Jesus: The Compassion of God (The Liturgical Press, 1983)

    2. booch | Feb 01, 2007 01:06am | #15

      Yea RJ you are right they were recalled  BUT there are new versions now. I misread your statement to be that they are recalled with no future.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?

  3. England1 | Jan 31, 2007 03:38pm | #6

    Arc fault circuit breakers are to protect bedroom outlets and what's been plugged into them. The normal practice here is to power lighting off of standard breakers.

    1. User avater
      maddog3 | Jan 31, 2007 03:55pm | #7

      ....." and what's been plugged into them...." that is a common misconception, but that is not what they are designed to do. their protection is specific to the wiring in the walls. not lamp cordand what Hartmann said about being required for the whole house in the next code cycle...in 2008.the whole AFCi debacle has become a joke.

      .

      .

      ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?

      1. England1 | Jan 31, 2007 04:10pm | #8

        http://ecmweb.com/nec/electric_afcis_brink_home/

        From the above link:

        If proposal #2-142 of the National Electric Code (NEC) passes, it will require combination-type arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) protection for all 15A and 20A, single-phase, 120V circuits in dwelling units by Jan. 1, 2008. The combination-type AFCI combines the protection of branch/feeder circuits with increased sensitivity as well as added protection for cord-and-plug-connected equipment. The proposal isn't the first mention of AFCIs in the Code; however, it is the most expansive and possibly the most controversial.

        They are trying to save us from idiots. As usual, we are going way too far. There is current discussions of requiring manufacturers of corded loads to provide 'on board' arc protection. Wait until John Q. Public gets the bill for this one.

      2. User avater
        rjw | Jan 31, 2007 05:46pm | #11

        >>the whole AFCi debacle has become a jokeNot to argue, but this is something I need to know about.I can't find anything on the internet suggesting there are wide spread problems with them.DO you have sources?

        What made the teaching of Jesus different and apparently so hard to accept then as now, was that it required a critical reassessment of the structures and values and attitudes of human society as his listeners and followers shared in it.

        - Monika K. Hellwig

        from Jesus: The Compassion of God (The Liturgical Press, 1983)

        1. User avater
          maddog3 | Jan 31, 2007 11:00pm | #12

          I had some links in other discussions here, but search is not working for me lately....and there maybe something at IAEI though.my big gripe is with the ham-fisted approach tha SqD and Siemens are squeezing the NEC to adopt the use of equipment that doesn't even exist.you may have this link to UL
          http://www.ul.com/regulators/afci/categories.cfmI found just this one, I must have trashed the others.

          .

          .

          ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?

          1. User avater
            maddog3 | Feb 01, 2007 06:23pm | #29

            I did a little more digging and the one link to a paper written by a fellow at Leviton has no become a dead link...regardless I"ll post it just for you....) good luck !http://www.leviton.com/sections/pr/articles/2003/AFCI_Truth_Consequence.pdfit was rather negative regarding the breaker Mfrs. maybe someone got strong-armed?????who knows,.

            .

            .

            ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?

    2. User avater
      BillHartmann | Jan 31, 2007 04:50pm | #9

      "Arc fault circuit breakers are to protect bedroom outlets "An outlet is any place electrical utilization equipment is connected. That include lights and smoke detectors. Unless changed by the local adoption the 2005 NEC requires lighting in bedrooms to be AFCI protected.
      .
      .
      A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

      1. Gimby | Jan 31, 2007 11:47pm | #13

        My locality only required that the receptacles be on the AFCI breaker. They lights were permitted to be on a regular breaker. I was warned that if the lights are put on the AFCI it would be a pain in the ...

    3. User avater
      rjw | Jan 31, 2007 05:45pm | #10

      That may be the practice there, but in conversuing with HI's around the country, it seems most places insist all electrical devices in bedrooms be AFCI protected.

      What made the teaching of Jesus different and apparently so hard to accept then as now, was that it required a critical reassessment of the structures and values and attitudes of human society as his listeners and followers shared in it.

      - Monika K. Hellwig

      from Jesus: The Compassion of God (The Liturgical Press, 1983)

    4. MSA1 | Feb 01, 2007 01:20am | #17

      The local inspectors around here interpet EVERYTHING in the bedroom as a recepticle, even the smoke dectector. I went around with the inspector about the smokes on an arc fault, she agreed with me but said the code says otherwise. I personally run a seprate circuit for smoke dectectors and she was okay with it.

  4. JonE | Feb 01, 2007 01:41am | #18

    I've just lost my argument with my electrician about installing AFCI's in my house.  According to him (and the code), I have to install an AFCI on any receptacle circuit in a "living area".  To him, that meant bedrooms, living and dining room, and any commonly occupied area.  My home office, though, is in the basement, so it doesn't count.  Bathrooms and kitchen are on GFI-protected circuits (not breakers, just receptacles).  I am waiting to see how long the AFCI's last before they trip over something stupid, and then I'll yank 'em all and replcae them with regular breakers.

     

    1. User avater
      BillHartmann | Feb 01, 2007 02:03am | #19

      The NEC says nothing about living area.The 2005 NEC. 21012(B);"Dwelling Unit Bedrooms - All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by a listed arcfault circuit interrupter, combination type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.Branch/feeder AFCIs shall be permitted to be used to meet the requirements of 210.12(B) until January 1, 2008."It only talks about Bedrooms. And a bedroom is a bedroom even if it is in the basement (but note the egrees requirements for bedrooms ANYPLACE).This is the lates model code. What code you have is based on what code the local authroities (maybe city, state, county, or in my case until recently the HOA) has adopted and with whatever modificiations that they have adopted. I have heard of them reducing the requirements for AFCI's, but never increaing them. But it is still possilbe.Where are you located?Well I checked your profile I see that you are in Vermont. Here is the link.http://www.dps.state.vt.us/fire/licensing/draftelectricrules2005unannotated.pdfAnd they did modify it to include all living area. The only thing excluded is kitchen, bath, halls, utility, closets and storage areas.So your office should have been included also based on that.I though that Vermont was the Live Free or Die state?.
      .
      A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

      Edited 1/31/2007 6:10 pm by BillHartmann

      1. JonE | Feb 01, 2007 02:29am | #20

        No, that's New Hamster.  Vermont is the "nothing makes sense here" state.

        What sucks even more is that there is NO local code enforcement, and no State code enforcement on single family homes.  So he is covering his own azz, yeah; he's a great electrician, BUT it's costing me money and future headaches for an electrical panel that only I will ever look at.  His response, when I said "don't use that junk in MY house", was "it's my license on the line if I don't".  Being a licensed professional myself, I get where he's coming from.  But I don't have to like it, and I don't have to keep it.  There's no requirement here that says a homeowner can't do their own electrical work, and I think those AFCI's are mysteriously going to disappear at the first sign of 'bad behavior'. 

        1. FrankDuVal | Feb 01, 2007 07:41am | #24

          You need a better electrician. Call around and see if others in the area have this way over the top requirement of AFCIs in living areas. You could pull out the NEC and show the electrician you know more about the code than he does.... That will win bonus points! ggggFWIW, here in VA and MD where I work most localities now require AFCIs on all electric outlets, i.e. receptacles, lights, & smoke detectors, in bedrooms only. None require them outside of bedrooms, but it is OK to have AFCI controlled outlets outside of the bedroom.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

          1. JonE | Feb 01, 2007 03:28pm | #26

            I doubt I know more about the NEC than this guy - he's got most of it memorized, and he's proven it.  The AFCI in living space IS state code, as I found out (thanks, Bill).   And around here, there is no such thing as a better electrician.  Maybe one with more experience, but I doubt that too. 

          2. FrankDuVal | Feb 01, 2007 04:32pm | #27

            I humbly admit I missed that part of Bill's message. Yep, the link to the code lists very few amendments to the NEC by the State of Vermont, but AFCI's in living space is one of the amended rules.Carry on!Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

      2. JTC1 | Feb 01, 2007 02:32am | #21

        Bill,

        "I thought that Vermont was the Live Free or Die state?"

        Sounds like that may depend on your definition of "free" and/or "die".

        Thankfully Delaware only requires AFCI on bedroom outlets (so far). We stick close to the NEC, therefore, if it changes, so will we. 

        Jim

        Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

         

        1. JamesPio | Feb 01, 2007 05:29am | #22

          I'm feeling like an unintentional genius.  I rewired my own house in 1999.  I am NOT an electrician, but I did an enormous amount of studying, prepared a complete wiring diagram for the house, pulled the permits, kept a copy of the "Illustrated" Code on th ekitchen counter through the whole installation, had the electrician who lives next door inspect my work, and finally passed an inspection.  In the course of all that, I learned about AFCI breakers.  They were not required by anyone at the time, but they had already appeared in an early draft of the NEC.  Sounded like a great idea to me, so I started looking for them.  Coudln't find the things anywhere.  I confirmed that GE was in fact manufacturing them, so I called them, they turned me over to a local distributor who had no idea what i was talking about and eventually called me back and said they didn't exist.  Not an electgrical supply house in town even knew they existed, and the electrical inspector was equally baffled.  This stuff was all over the internet (including, I think on this forum).  So I called the Business Manager of the IBEW Local here (he's a client/friend of mine) and he was equally clueless.  Here I was worried about whether I could do this install correctly, and AFCI sounded like a fantastic piece of insurance which I knew existed but for whatever reason simply could not buy.  So I went without.  Now, I feel quite confident about my wiring job and don't really care that I couldn't get the AFCI breakers, but reading this I'm thinking I may just be an accidental genius."If the trout are lost, smash the state."

          1. User avater
            BillHartmann | Feb 01, 2007 05:32am | #23

            LOL.
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          2. User avater
            xxPaulCPxx | Feb 01, 2007 10:17am | #25

            As part of my bathroom remodel, I put in my new 200 amp (up from 100) service panel loaded to the gills with AFI breakers.

            I'm still working in the gutted master bedroom (man, did this project ever CREEP!).  I picked up the Wobble Light Jr., based on the fine reviews of the Wobble light.  The extension cord I've plugged it into is a little old though... every time I move the light, or step on the cord, I hear breakfast calling - SNAP, CRACKLE, POP!  Light flickers when this is going on.

            It is obviously arcing, but oddly enough it is not tripping my brand new AFI breaker.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

            Also a CRX fanatic!

          3. User avater
            BillHartmann | Feb 01, 2007 04:48pm | #28

            Current AFCI's are call branch feeder AFCI's. They will detect 2 faults in addition to overloads.Ground fault leakage of 30 ma. This is much higher than GFCI's (5 ma) and will not protect people. The idea is to detect branch circuit insulation that is deterorating. Of course for people that want to install AFCI's to protect old wiring this feature is useless as they don't have a ground. Likewise many appliance don't use grounded connections so it won't help their either.Feel safer.The other feature is to detect parrallel arc of 60 (or 80, don't remember which) amp arcs. Ofen small appliance cords can short, but won't drawn that much current. And it does nothing for series arc. Those are where there is a break and the current drops towards zero and then returns. However, the broken ends, when arcing, can generate enough heat to start a fire. Feel safer yet.But don't worry. Starting in Jan 2008 the code require combination AFCI's. Even the existing 2005 NEC requires them. The combination types also detects series arcs.But, AFAIK, there is no there is no combo unit available yet.Wonder how much field testing that they will have before being required?Fell safer yet..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          4. User avater
            xxPaulCPxx | Feb 02, 2007 08:57am | #30

            Man, I wish I didn't drop $30 a breaker for something that will be far surpassed in a year!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

            Also a CRX fanatic!

          5. User avater
            Soultrain | Feb 02, 2007 03:06pm | #31

            New Jersey does not currently require AFCI breakers anywhere.  Are there any other states that do not require it?

            Is this going to change in '08?

          6. moltenmetal | Feb 02, 2007 03:42pm | #32

            Just to add the rules from another region:  recent checking with the Ontario Electrical Safety Authority verifies that what I did in my own place is OK:  receptacles in bedrooms only MUST go on AFCI.  Lights are permitted to share the AFCI circuit, but it is not required that bedroom lighting be AFCI protected.

            I do my best to avoid running lighting and receptacles off the same circuit anyway, unless there's more than one lighting circuit serving the room.

             

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