I’ve found myself with quite an architect problem on my hands. I’d appreciate any advice that can be offered.
I’m building a new home. Not a McMansion, but a nice home nonetheless – somewhere on the order of 2300 sq. ft. We set an initial budget of $300k – $350k and watched it creep up to $400k +. From the get-go the architect assured us we could build what we wanted (showed him plenty of specific quality examples from Fine Homebuilding) for our $$.
Initially things were rosy – good relationship and collaboration out of the box. Things started to bog down in as our aesthetic differences began to surface in the details. Anyway, the first red flag was when he sent me a big bill (read: $10k) for overages related to helping with zoning approval. The process was a pain, but we discussed his role in advance and he indicated that most of the work had to be done regardless, and that his “overages” would be “a day or day and a half.”
Fast forward six months – construction bids are coming in at 2x – 4x our budget – what the heck’s going on here?? He says the contractors don’t know what they’re talking about, i.e. “they’re just not accustomed to seeing plans of this quality!” Contractors say, “Where the hell did you get these plans?” “An architect really designed these?” “These specifications are incredibly burdomsome” etc. etc.
Frustrated, I take a few months to regroup – and educate myself – to the process. I re-visit the house plans and find 100 mistakes – inconsistencies everywhere – windows that hit the eaves when they’re opened, crazy specifications, etc. etc. I go back to the architect – give him a list of my 100 mistakes along with specific instructions as to how I want them addressed. I also ask for several minor changes to address issues that arose as the design evolved (e.g. a walk-in closet that was cut in half to accommodate mechanical runs late in the process). He says, “No problem – I want to make this right for you. We’ll take care of them – no charge.” A month later, I get a bill for $23,000 for “changes requested by owner” – (remember – 2300 sq. ft., nothing fancy, modified cape cod style house). I tell the architect he’s full of it – he tells me that I can’t use my plans (despite the $50k I’ve paid) unless I pay the rest. At the end of the day, he wants over $70k to design a 2300 sq. ft. house.
We have an AIA agreement – which despite being a bit lopsided, isn’t too bad – but it doesn’t really cover this type of issue. I never approved a cent of overages – to the contrary, he went out of his way to make assure me there wouldn’t be any extra charges.
There’s obviously no love lost in our relationship now, but I’d still like to settle-up with the guy without suing him. Any objective insight out there?
Replies
but I'd still like to settle-up with the guy without suing him.
famous last words.
hopefully someone more experienced in such matters will chime in .... but like I've told most in similar situations ... get ready for court.
I hate the courts ... I hate lawyers ...I hate to "sue" ... but sometimes it's the only recourse ... aside from sitting quiet and hoping it all goes away.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Wish I had something useful to add, but it will have to wait till I reconnect my jaw that dropped to the floor. Can I get you to write a letter to each of my design clients telling them what you were charged and what you're getting? They'll LOVE me. Either that, or I'm gonna raise my fees tenfold.
Q. How'd you pick him? Did you shop around at all? Did you know that'd be the fee up front? Did it give you pause?
As for resolution, do you have an arbitration clause?
You're kidding, right? You and your "architect" have schemed up a 2300 sf house plan, your budget has grown now to $400K, that's $174/sf, you have PAID this person $50,000 to date, the plans and specs are so outrageously bad that YOU have found 100 mistakes in them, builders have quoted this thing at $350 to $700 per square foot, and your "architect" now wants another $23K?
Let's retitle this thread "Custom House from Hell" and see how it goes from here.
$700 per foot. Archy fees over 18 percent and we aren't even out of the box. 100 errors found by you.
Is this story for real?
I'm just bumping this because my curiosity has been peaked!!!
Yeah - it's sick, isn't it? I'd like to defend myself, but I'm afraid it's true. He initially said that his fees would be just under 10% of cost of construction. At our $300k budget, we planned on up to $30k. I did shop around, but obviously not enough. I was enamored with the idea of having a "custom" house. Fact of the matter is, what we really wanted was a "nice" house that wasn't like every other one on the block - didn't realize we didn't need an architect to achieve that. Of course, in hindsight everythings crystal clear - the warning signs, the escalating costs, etc. I hate to think there was malicious intent, but geez, it seems like he really played me like a fiddle.
One of the builders who provided an early estimate that was in our price range later came back $100k+ higher. I asked him, "What gives? Nothing's changed in the plans." He tells me his first bid was right where the architect told him to be.
Time to document everything, including conversdations with the builders, and talk with an attorney. You been hosed bub. Did the initial estimate of 10% include construction management time? I woul have expected $2 to $3/sf for a complete correct set of plans.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
sorry to hear about your experience.
i think the first thing is to document everything (as someone else said) and then try to head for mediation.
failing that i think you'll end uo in court.
i'm sure that the AIA should be able to help you. if not they better have a good excuse.
just out of curiosity- what part of the country is this drama playing out? i ask because i know a lot of architects in a couple places and maybe somebody could recommend more direct, localized assistance. or failing that, a good attorney (which, unfortunately, i could also do)
m
Don't many states (I believe for instance here in CT) have a licensing and oversight board for architects? I'd think that a threat of a complaint to the state that could wind up on his official record as well as potentially result in a sanction might be a fast, effective weapon. Good luck, sure sounds like a horror show! If you happen to be in CT and want a great, fair and highly aggressive lawyer drop me a note and I'll be happy to give you a name.
> He initially said that his fees would be just under 10% of cost of construction.
And the contract you signed said _________________?
Find a good builder that will take your what you have of plans, and is willing to make them work if you give him a free hand. Find someone who will value-engineer your job to help you salvage your budget.
Sue the architect. Work to ruin his name. Be malicious about it. better-business-bureau complaints, complain to his alma mater even. Sue his #### off.
I personally like lawyers. sorry, jeff. I'm in a contract dispute right now with an idiot sub who blew through all his repeated, self-established deadlines. He ended up putting 20 hours into a $10k job. I joint-checked everything, drove out of state to pick up his material, found a replacement sub to him for a phase of work he had responsibility for, etc. I look forward to court.
remodeler
You see it different and I do to.
This seems to be a dealers game that is running on the owner and so far hes still dealing.
This doesnt sound any different to me than the contractor that tells the home owner he can build the house of their dreams for a mere standard price but cant bid it . Trust me into cost plus construction and I will do it .[I think , but Im not under contract to actually do it do it] The contractor then gets the job because hes cheaper if the owner has fallen into the web. Slowly a bite at a time for every reason under the sun the costs start climbing where they should have been bid in at . Now the tragic thing comes to a head if the project goes over a high price. The contractor is the dealer and already has his money. No binding contract to keep the contractor from walking off. Happens every day .
Tim Mooney
contact the AIA
sounds like you got hosed
some of the biggest nightmares I have seen were by architects
the majority are excellent, well thought out, worth every penny
we hve one in town that bills the same way, on predicted costs they produce, and is always way off, few of the projects get built, but they get paid
yes they have years of education and internship so they can "jusify" their fee
but its not the piece of paper you have on a wall but the knowledge you have and how you use it
I wish you good luck
but depending on the contract, pleasentries might be all you get
Sounds like the architect we found. He was well recommended too.
He was supposed to make our already extensive plans "official", so several builders could bid with the exact same specifications.
He didn't follow our plans and changed much, adding square feet and many fancy and expensive features to them.
When he presented them to us, we told him what to change and he assured us that he would and gave us a bill we paid.
He proceeded to give the same plans he showed to us to the builders, without any changes. When we protested he said he would change them, for them to wait on the bids.
A few days later I talked with his draftsman, that told me nothing had been done yet and we e-mailed back and forth for some two hours and got the new plans ready, I thought.
Well, there was still much not right, when we received the plans that afternoon, that was not supposed to be there and a bill for an extra 14 hours work!
We paid to get rid of them. We didn't use any of his plans of fancy ideas, so there is no question of copyrights. We lost at least two months waiting on him to get anything done and then it was all for nothing, the money and time spent on him. I guess that we were lucky we didn't get as involved with this one as you did with yours.
I wish you good luck!
There's obviously no love lost in our relationship now, but I'd still like to settle-up with the guy without suing him. Any objective insight out there?
I'd say find somebody to break both his legs and his fingers too.
You might still end up in court, but at least you would have some satisfaction first.
How's that for objective insight?
Joe H
When you say you used an AIA contract, I assume you used B141. I find this fair, not quite lopsided as you described. One of the first items in the contract are the financial parameters - both the budget for the project and the architect's compensation. If these were stipulated, then he has an obligation to meet the criteria unless otherwise agreed to (in writing) by you. One of the most significant clauses in the contract is that if the lowest bona fide bid exceeds the budget, you have several choices. One is to agree to modify the scope and quality to meet the budget and this work is to be done by the architect at no additional charge.
A fee of 18% is not uncommon, but is usually associated with very complex programs, renovations or very high end projects. For a 2,300 sf cape, new construction, 10% should be sufficient. Project costs do vary quite a bit by locality. In eastern MA, $175/SF for a custom home is very common.
Mediarich,
The most absurdly expensive job I ever had the misfortune of running was around $400 a foot. You have now got $70,000 into the design of a 2300 sqft house? WOW.
You need to call the AIA right away. Hope they can help. If not, Hire a lawyer. For what you've got into this you should have a hole dug and a footings poured. All you have is a few sheets of paper. Unusable ones at that.
In the past I've been stuck between the Architect and the Homeowner. Most times the Architect designs something inappropriate for the price range. Then, your an incompetent idiot if you can't build it for what he told the homeowner.
A few years ago I was framing a job in a very exclusive area. It was the dream/retirement home of someone who had just sold a very large company. A 10,000 sqft Ranch. My father was working with a customer who had gotten a plan directly from the Architect. Paid around $60,000. It was comprable to the work going on in this neighborhood. Fit right in. Problem was, the Architect told them it would cost around $120 sqft to build and anyone who charged more than that was a crook. Everything else in the neighborhood was coming in around $290 sqft.
I have to say most architects are worth what they charge. But, every group has it's problem children. You would be better off to get your money back from this guy and start over. Chances are the plan he drew is useless.
> The most absurdly expensive job I ever had the misfortune of running was around $400 a foot.
Aaron Spelling's mansion was about $850/ft. That's a guy who has more money than God, and spent most of it on the house.
-- J.S.
John
Yea but he can go down in his basement and bowl!
Some magazine sitting on our coffee table... showcase house in FL somewhere, maybe Naples, ~$950/SF and ~6000SF if I recall correctly. Yow!
Worked on a few like that but the numbers were never my problem.
Anybody besides me wonder about the OTHER side of this story?
I wonder if the plan was so cumbersome because the HO made the archy draw stuff in infinite detail.
All we've got is this guy's side. Sure would like to hear the other perspective...Bumpersticker: Boldly Going Nowhere
>Sure would like to hear the other perspective...
I'd sure like to hear how someone could turn the design of a 2300 sf cape into $70k. I'm sure I could learn a lot.
I still can't come to terms with the fact "the plans are copyrighted" If I paid for the creation and instructed changes and improvements on the "plans" then they are mine and mine alone!! This is not like buying a franchise. Really does this mean every piece of work I designed must not be copied!
That is what the copyright laws say.
Of course you can always have an agreement that either gives the copyrights to the buyer or gives then license to do xxxx with the plans.
"I'd sure like to hear how someone could turn the design of a 2300 sf cape into $70k."
Cloud,
That's what just what I was think'in.
Just shy of what I paid for my 2400sq/ft cape on a scenic 2 acre partially wooded hill 30 minutes from downtown (MKE)...complete! (OK $96K)......... And the original poster is just talking about plans??? Geez.
Like some have said, only one side hear.......like sooooo many newbie posts.
Jon
Now this is the other side
Wow things are pretty dry, next time I'll get some Lube
I would take the plans to an appraiser and see what the value of the house is. That will give you a more realistic idea.
I am absolutely floored.
Please at the very least, get some legal advise just so you know where you stand.
For those who want a good architect, ask the builders in you neighborhood, they work with them and know them the best.
Frank Ghery is the world most famous architect, saw many homes he designed. He is a great "Artist" but he dont know S_ about how to do it. His underlings are the ones who have to make it work.
Before submitting plans, let you builder see the plans first.
Instead of paying his ransom, take the plans to another architect or a draftsman and have him make enough modifications so the original archy can't claim copywright. It should be simple enough for a 2300 sq.ft. cape and may only cost you a couple of grand. Good luck.