Here’s the situtation. We have a lotsa crown molding to install on lotsa doors and window casings, on the head casing, above the head jamb, right? And the crown returns to the finished wall in a 90 degree return. The two pieces are actually mitered to 45 each and there is a small tiny return piece. Got It?
I have tried several ways to attach the stupid return:
Glue it with yellow carpenters glue to the main section and then nail them both the casing. Yellow glue on end grain doesn’t work worth a darn, and at the first nailing, it pops off.
Same method as above, but with epoxy. Slightly better results.
Attach main crown with nails then glue and nail the little piece with hot melt glue to both the head casing and the main crown piece. Sloppy but it seems to hold better. I have also used epoxy, which holds even better. It seems to help if I pre-drill small holes for No. 4 finish nails.
And various permutations. Can’t use bisquits because the crown is small, about 3 inches and it won’t fit under bisquit joiner fence. Haven’t tried splines yet, but what a pain in the a s s. Dowels won’t work either.
What is your perferred method for attaching these stupid return pieces? I am not having a problem, but would just like to hear some other methods that I might not have tried.
Thanks!!
Boris
“Sir, I may be drunk, but you’re crazy, and I’ll be sober tomorrow” — WC Fields, “Its a Gift” 1934
Replies
i would try hot hide glue. Do a rub joint with it.The glue has almost instant tack
I have never used it. Is it stronger than yellow glue. This is end grain to end grain.Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I've done this with yellow glue with some success. I generally coat both the ends with glue and let it sit a while. Then I come back and add more glue and then (sorta) clamp 'em together as best as I can.
The first coat of glue seems to seal up the end grain a bit, and it holds better.A wise man knows everything; a shrewd man knows everyone.
Boss, what you are talking about in woodworking circles is called "sizing", and you are correct it does seal the end grain. When you use a yellow glue on end grain the wood actually sucks/pulls all of the glue into the wood and away from the joint, leaving it weak. Sizing fills in all of the pores and keeps the glue in the joint.
Sizing is usually done with a watered down glue, but it does not have to be, you just don't want it to build up too thick on the ends. If you use Gorilla Glue (polyurathane) you do not need to do this. This glue is thick enough that it will not all pull away from the joint, and the little bit that does actually makes the joint stronger by doing this.
Mike We are the people our parents warned us about. J. Buffett
its as strong as yellow glue. It will not act as a resist to stain as yellow glue does. it is not subject to thermoplastic creep to the degree that yellow glue. Its only drawbacks are you have to have an hot glue pot and the glue will breakdown in a high heat steamy enviroment... cant use it in boatbuilding.
as to strength the furniture they found in King Tut's tomb was glued together with it. The Smithsonian will not accept furn made with any other glue 'cause its repairable.
I've had good success using gorilla glue and pinch clamps. No brads or nails. (I do returns on window aprons the same way, only use a stretchable plastic tape instead of pinch clamps. Works great.)
Pinch Clamps. Now there is a good idea? Install the return in place on the casing or pre attach it to the main piece then install?Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I usually attach them on the bench, then hang. But that's only because I never thought of doing it any other way. I would think if you tried to install it while the apron or crown was in place, the return would have to be exact. I will often overcut the return, attach it, then belt sand the return to a perfect fit.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
titebond makes a grayish/dark brown glue, can't remember the name
Ahh... I'll look it up...
ok, found it,
Tight bond Molding glue, it sets faster then reg yellow glue, and is a bit thicker
that and a few small brads usually holds molding returns in place for me.
Never tried the the springy corner clamps, but I saw somewhere, could have been here, that a cut up matress spring works real well and is cheap.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
I just use yellow wood glue and temporarily tape the piece in place. A crown that approaches 3" in width is almost sure to accept an air driven brad in a couple of spots up the mitered edge into the other piece of crown. It's more difficult to nail it into the header. Either way, look at the grind on the end of the brad first and make the chisel edge go across the grain - that way the brad will cut it's way through instead of acting as a splitting wedge. This only works with gun brads. Hand nails can only split the grain unless you dull the tip first.
So you do not preassemble the unit, and glue and nail it in place, I take it.
Thanks. That is exactly what I do.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
No, I don't pre-assemble. I want to be able to adjust the length and angle of the return piece, just in case - God forbid - the drywall isn't perfectly flat, straight, plumb and level.
Perfect. That is exactly what I do. Gary Katz had an article where he advocated pre-assembling all those components, and I just didn't see how in the real world he could do this. We install them piece by piece and cut and plane to fit each piece.
Thanks.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
another vote for titebond wood molding glue and spring clamps. Works like a champ
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
I have never seen Titebond Molding Glue, at least not at the Big Box, probably get it at plywood centers or cabinet supply shops???
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Lowes and Home Decrepit has it.
"If I wanted to hear the pitter patter of little feet around the house I'd hire a midget to be the butler" more W.C.
Our lumber yards, and Ace hardware carry it.Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
Another vote for Mo(u)lding glue. Great stuff. Very fast tack. I find it awfully thick, whick affects the flow rate though; so I try to stay in the habit of storing it upside down in my bags, on the bench, wherever.
I also agree that tape works great, leaves no holes to be filled, and saves redoing split pieces, especially on smaller, or straight grained stock. I often cut the return just a fuzz long, ensuring it touches the wall slightly before the material it's glued to - making for a nice tight fit against the wall. Usually can pretape the piece in place, but sometimes, don't even need that if the retuns is a tad long I gently tap it into place.
That molding glue is great stuff. Stumbled onto it by accident a few years ago when I sent my son to the lumber yard for stuff and he came back with a bottle of it by mistake. I was amazed and sold. Use it often anymore.
I have wanted to use spring clamps but cannot find them. Any ideas where I can get a few?
Thanks.
TH
Dave Collins, the same guy who invented the Collins Coping Foot, sells them. I think his web address is http://www.collinstools.com. He sells some cool little planes, too - interesting guy.
Try http://www.collinstool.com.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Is there an echo in here?
Hellooooo, helloooo, hellooo.
Nope. No echo. Look at the links. Jim's had an 's' on the end.I never met a tool I didn't like!
well, others beat me to the punch. I like the collins clamps. They don't scar things up much, and are good for small moldings and trim. If you ever run into where you need something with a lot more oomph to it, the Ulmia clamps work on the same principle, and you definately need the spreader tool with them. Believe Amazon is the only place I've seen them recently. But the points will leave marks that require filling. They're better used on fairly large pieces."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Yeah, I have some of those big hurkin' circular spring clamps too, RW. You're right, the spreader is a must. Those things are great for clamping exterior trim (my favorite kind of carpentry).
I think I got mine from what is now called "Rockler". What were they before, "Woodworkers Supply" maybe? Anyway, I just looked through a catalog and don't see them in there. I'll see if I can post this web address right - thanks for catching that "s" last night, Nick.
http://www.Rocklerpro.com
Don't rule out Hot Stuff if you're assembling as you go. Weldbond or Titebond Moulding Glue are the preferred adhesives. Use a 23 gauge pin driver if you need to nail it.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Boris, have you looked at Titebonds HiPurformer Polyurethane Hot Melt. I have not personally used it but the company that I work for uses it all of the time to adhere mitered corners on some of the desks that we make. There are 2 different set times depending on the glue you buy, either 30 seconds or 60 seconds. According to their website at ten minutes it has 650 PSI strength, at 24 hours 1,360 PSI. By comparision regular Titebond yellow glue has a strength of 3600 PSI after 24 hours, so it is not quite half as strong, but it should be fine for mouldings.
There is a thick or gel type of super glue made that might work well. I would use it with spray accelerator so the bond is nearly instant. I use the yellow glue and tape method. I got tired of the nails splitting the return. I get enough problems cutting the little suckers.
I nail up the long piece on the face first, then cut the end return to fit snug to the wall. It will practically hold itself in place then! I put the glue to the joint at mitre and at wall an fit it in. If it wants to wander, I use a piece of blue painter's tape to hold it overnight ( LOL sometimes longer - I went back toa jo b once after a year and found a piece of tape still on that I had missed in cleanup) No need for nails.
Are you trying to assenble the whole head entablature first and then put it up?
Excellence is its own reward!
God, no; I am good, but not that good. Some of the experts recommend assembling in one fell swoop, but I just can't imagine doing that. I am not that good.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Me neither, but I don't really think it's the best way. It will alwayts leave gaps at the wall to look like a prefab cheapo unit, even though the outside miter can be tight consistantly..
Excellence is its own reward!
i always use wood glue on those tiny returns
cut the pieces apply glue and rube the two pieces together until it feels tacky, like maybe one minute, then leave the joint alone for half an hour on the bench out of the way
usually they are too small to nail
caulking is not a piece of trim
And if you want to speed things up, hide glue works great with no waiting.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
And if you really want to speed things up use some csa jell glue. I carry some in my box and use it just for this application. Hold it in place for about 10 seconds and it done.
Doug
I admit it...sometimes read Family Handyman mag...a tip for fastening together small pieces of moulding...clamp em together, drill a small hole through the face of one into the other, and insert a toothpick with carp glue.
Whatever works...
Jen
Rockler and Garret Wade also carry them. You'll find them in one of two places in the catalog: either under picture framing or clamps. Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Would a small backer block work for you on the miter plus any of the glue recomendations? That is- if the top of the crown is open.....