Hello All,
I didn’t know if I should post this question in the general discussion folder or in the construction techniques folder.
Just got done searching the archives on ‘attic remodel’. It seems like a lot of folks have done this. I am also contemplating doing this sometime in the future. I would like to hear from people who have converted an attic into livable space. I want to know what where the biggest bug-a-boos that you encountered? What were the ‘damn didn’t know I was going to have to do thats’.
I know that for my attic I will have to strengthen the rafters and the ceiling joists. What bugs me about this is it seems like most people ignore the existing framing when figuring what type of members to sister on. ‘Oh you have floor joists that span 12′ you can do that with a 2by10’-same deal with the rafters.
Around here (Oakland CA) if you want to refinish your attic that triggers a ‘seismic retro-fitting’ where they are going to expect me to bring the entire house up to modern seismic standards-and heating and cooling and basically bring the entire structure up to code (as is my understanding). I don’t know how they can think thats practical-making a house built in 1896 conform to that modern code.
I know that the ground floor framing and foundation can handle three floors. The ground floor is going to be seismically retrofitted and the house will definately be stronger-safer than a period designed 3 story. But no way do I want to rip off either all the exterior 2nd story siding or interior lathe/plaster to install plywood shearwalls. They want me to gut the house basically to ‘bring it up to code’ bah.
And that was my rant for the day!
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Replies
Too bad they found out about it!
My biggest attic complaint is how many times I've gotten my head split open by nails, but through the sheathing and some that snuck up on me sticking out of rafters. Next would be how many times I've smacked my head on the aforementioned rafters.
Nope, my biggest rag is: insulation. Ugh.
Or, bees! No, raccoon crap. Old wiring, like knob and tube--where does it go? How do you know it's okay to stay or go?
Falling through the floor would be pretty high on the list if it had happened to me but I haven't made that mistake yet. I've knocked some light fixtures down from the ceiling below a few times! Plaster too.
How'm I doing so far?
Well.... the city has not 'found out about it yet'. We are doing a ton of work on the house with permits and I am thinking that I will not be touching the attic till after those are finaled. I might be able to get away with it if I convince them that its not going to be finished space and I just want to beef up the attic/build a stairway for ease of storage (what victorian house does not need more storage??).
Actually I was thinking about more specific bug-a-boos related to the actual conversion of the attic.
Though my attic as a ton of roofing nails coming thru the decking that love to try to bite me on the head.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
I've noticed that a lot of rafters varied substantially in dimension. Sag factors, abuse (too many layers of roofing for example, leaks, etc.) causing overstress on rafters. Walls spreading or leaning. Rafters that were overspanned or spaced improperly, cut up for mechanical or other reasons. All contributing factors. Run some strings and check them for plane. Floor joists too, though if you're planning to sister onto them you can make your own plane.Chimney? Sometimes they can present some challenges and Darwin award finalists.That better?
Yes, thankyou.
I've noticed that a lot of rafters varied substantially in dimension. Sag factors, abuse (too many layers of roofing for example, leaks, etc.) causing overstress on rafters. Walls spreading or leaning. Rafters that were overspanned or spaced improperly, cut up for mechanical or other reasons. All contributing factors. Run some strings and check them for plane. Floor joists too, though if you're planning to sister onto them you can make your own plane.
Chimney? Sometimes they can present some challenges and Darwin award finalists.
That better?Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Spray some urethene foam on the underside of the sheathing to cushion the blow of those nails attacking your scalp
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
my head split open by nails
Or, in my case, ruined a perfectly good hat I knew better than to wear onder rafters, with a completely destructible hat hanging in the ride <sigh, dab blood dribble>
I've knocked some light fixtures down
Spot you a DIY-installed ceiling fan for your ceiling fixture <oops, blush> But, only the one <knock wood>. Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
How about finding that the bathroom fan just vents into the attic instead of going through the roof to the outside? Sweet.
I can only specualte since i am not a seismmic guy and don't build in a seismic zone ( yet. We had a small quake in Maine last week)
But when you finish out the attic, you are adding loads to the existing walls and foundation. You are ading weight that can fall down on your head ina quake. You are also increasing the odds of a human being that high up in the house durintg a quake, and gicving him or her further to fall when the structure comes down.
So the requirement makes sense to me.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
'But when you finish out the attic, you are adding loads to the existing walls and foundation. You are ading weight that can fall down on your head ina quake. You are also increasing the odds of a human being that high up in the house durintg a quake, and gicving him or her further to fall when the structure comes down.'
Right I understand why you need to beef the house up when adding load to the attic. I will be beefing up the ground floor of this 2.5 story house. I will make sure that the house will be much safer in a shaker than a similar vintage house with an original finished attic. If you have a house with an originally finished attic then its all fine and dandy to use it but is it safe?
I am thinking of going around with a big pair of cutters and nipping the nails off right at the decking. That shouldnt be a problem should it?
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
One issue that comes up with remodeling an attic is that the stairway may not meet code requirements for a habitable space - it may be too narrow and/or too steep/and or not have adequate headroom.
Speaking from experience, getting drywall up into an attic sucks big time.
'One issue that comes up with remodeling an attic is that the stairway may not meet code requirements for a habitable space - it may be too narrow and/or too steep/and or not have adequate headroom.'
I think I have worked out a way to get up there that will meet code. I have to take most of the space of a big closet in what is now a master bath and the stair is going to have to be a winder but it should work.Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
The first thing that comes to mind other than what you've mentioned is you are in for a lesson in compound angles - just for nailers alone, let alone finished surface.
We did a attic recording studio with bead board over chip board and one thing that helped us was pattern boards for the repeating compound angles.
For insulation we packed the space full of unfaced fibreglas. The moisture comes and goes. Illinois (all kinds of) weather. No problem.
We did another attic that we were able to get 12 ft drywall (stand up, half twist, over the rail) all the way to the 3rd floor attic. We had to have it turned the right way on the start, because there wasn't room to turn it up there.
We did another attic with a loft. To reinforce the valley rafter we cut the cripples and built up bolted-in reinforcement 2x10s with screwed on tekos. We also used mobile home strapping under the valley and up to the gable peaks for insurance. Insulation - filled the space with unfaced fibreglas. 18 years no problem (for a lawyer at that).
I just thought of a few other annoyances, these are mainly for old houses, but many are for newer ones.
1. Bees, wasps, hornets, flying ants, biting flies, attic flies, house flies, deer flies, cow flies, green flies, black widows, brown recluses, big ugly relatively harmless spiders, asian ladybugs, crazed squirrels, racoons, pigeons, snakes - rare but not unheard of.
2. Dust, coal soot, fiberglass, cellulose, mineral wool, bird poop, bat poop, squirrel poop, racoon poop3. Unplaned random width framing. Always needs furred or hacked.
4. Collar ties-usually with scalp flesh on bottom.
5. Live uninsulated wires-always hidden.
6. Vent stacks in the way.
7. Hot or cold temps always.
8. Chimney or flue stacks in the way.
9. Undersized joists.
10. Petrified oak or yellow pine frames.
Edited 3/28/2005 11:33 pm ET by Martha Stewart
Ok, so when exactly were you in some of the houses I have <g> . . . ?
Unplaned random width framing. Always needs furred or hacked.
That changes direction in the worst possible spot to get it fixed simply and easiliy . . . "Well, if this joist wasn't also a purlin with this entire [large structural element] on it, we'd be done . . . "
5. Live uninsulated wires-always hidden.
Or, attached to that sheetmetal vent pipe which is the only handhold to get from hyar t' thar . . . Energized, randomly of course, ductwirk is also fun. Ooh, that first peek in the attic before the light is on, and there's St Elmo's crawling bluely across the black iron gas line . . .
6. Vent stacks in the way.
Vent stacks that stop under the roof. Or, just a pipe sticking up, or all of them, and half with test caps still glued on . . .
9. Undersized joists.
Is there any other size?
Helpfully, by some previous owner or party, decked over ceiling joists, so you have no idea what is under them, are on my list. Getting the 12' 2x6 t&g attic floor out almost as much fun as getting sheetgoods in . . .
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Martha, Fonzie,
Damn, your right, getting drywall and subflooring up there is going to be a giant PITA. I am planning two large shed dormers with large windows. We might be able to bring the material thru the rough opening for the windows.Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
I'm in the middle of one right now. Getting materials up there has been mentioned, and its a big one. I didn't anticipate how much extra labor that would entail. Also, my temporary bracing is totally in the way while structural beams are on "back order", slowing me down at every turn, who could have foreseen that? All those wires to re-route. Moving ductwork. Bearing walls and beams dictate where you can place your walls. Make sure to leave some room for getting around in what's left of the attic. Trying to keep kids out during construction. A place to store materials while work is in progress. Trying to figure a way to get some natural light in there. Thats all my tired brain can come up with for now!
I've done two...both without anybody's consent...but I did them correctly, in the event any nosey person in some position of authority should later ask. And even then, I'd have declared the space 'utility space'. But if it ain't got its own entrance (from a hall), the space isn't large enough or the stairway not to the right dimension...it won't count as a bedroom anyway. But to a couple of important points.
1. Floor structure. Getting this wrong will mean sagging ceilings and cracking plaster. Bad!. I doubled my 2X8's spanning 13 feet, by sistering, gluing and nailing the crap out of the pairs. Oh, and a trick....crown up the sisters, put along side existing, drive a big #12 wood screw into the midpoint of the exisitng and then use a large crowbar to lever down on and preload the new sister...and then nail in place while holding it there. Helps take a bit of sag out of the older floor joists.
2. Collar ties. Avoid the temptation to take them out...you actually need them. I bumped mine up about 6" but secured them using a Simpson collar strap.
3. Ventilate the space behind the roof deck from soffit to ridge vent. This simple act will make all the difference in livability in the summer and winter.
4. Do your utmost to run a 'home-run' circuit from your box to the attic, and avoid the temptation to tap into a wayward cloth coated hot wire snaking through your attic.
wearing a sun-hat with a piece of 1/8" masonite in the top will go a long way in preventing nail punctures in your scalp.
And I agree...getting drywall or any long material up to the attic is a giant pain!
Lots more to research, but these are a few of the highpoints I can think of.
BruceM
Hi BruceM,
Like the idea of pre-loading the sistered joists to take out any sag in the original joists.
I plan on installing a subpanel in the attic to run all the attic circuits from.
I am still thinking that I will go around and clip off all the nails at the deck. That couldnt be a bad thing could it?
On the subject of research. I have been trying to do some but there does not appear to be a lot of 'high-level' stuff out there. I have two books on converting attics, one from sunset and one from better homes and gardens...semi-useful. I bought a book 'Construction Engineering for Contractors' that appears really usefull to me. After reading most of it I am pretty confident that I will be able to size the rafters-joists intelligently. If anyone knows of any books that deal with attic remodeling on a higher level than say a Sunset book I would love to know about it.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Dan,
I have an 1890's house with a "finished" attic. Attic has drywall, insulation, and carpet, but no heat.
I considered getting permits to refinish it to code and decided against it. We could beef up the rafters and floor just, but the one issue we could not get around was the 26" wide stairway up to the attic. No real way to meet code with out adding another stairway which was not cost affective.
We have 2 x 4 rafters with fiberglass batt insulation between them. Even though the attic has no heat source it stays warm most of the winter without heating. In Feb. when it gets below zero we run a small space heater which does the job.
We currently use the attic as a Kids play room. The 2 x 6 floor joists are undersized and sag a little at the middle of the span. Not sure I would be comfortable having anyone sleep up there with a space heater.
Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
Hi Mike,
So have you given up on the remodel? You are not just going to go ahead with it and not get the permits? Your attic is HUGE and I think that I would hate to not have that as reasonably useful space. Our house is small enough that once there is a child involved and maybe an inlaw visiting we are going to be CRAMPED! I think if we could finish the attic as a master bedroom then we could have enough elbow room to make the house comfy when we have guests...which we always seem to have.....Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Dan,We basically use the attic like a finished basement. We decided that since we currently use the attic, why spend the money to bring it up to code. The city will never bother us until we put the dumpster out front. Once they start inspecting it's a big can o' worms as everything has to be brought up to code.We are talking to a builder about doing the 2 story addition. We have a tight budget. We decided to put a full basement under the addition instead of the crawlspace. We thought this would be a better use of the money than spending in the attic. Besides, I can always redo the attic some time in the future. Once the addition is built we can't add the basement. Just a matter of priorities I guess.Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois
they sell built in electric heaters that are considerably safer. and ones that are absolutly safe for more$$$.