OK, now that I have read all the articles and threads here at Breaktime and JLC, I’m just as confused as ever. I am committed to using Azek trim on a 2500 sq. ft renovated cape. Frieze, fascia, rake moulding, crown, etc. I need some advice on what everyone that has installed Azek (or similar PVC products) have used for nails, glues, and any other tips or tricks to insure the best possible outcome.
All the flat stock will be intalled over 2X sub-fascia, so I was considering using a PL construction adhesive in addition to nailing. But what has been your experience with nails; I’ve read everything from hand nailed finish nails to 8d common nails, galvanized, SS, trim and/or deck screws. I would prefer to sparsly glue to the 2X sub with adhesive and shoot nails as recommended by Azek. I will most likely paint everything at some point so I could fill larger holes and the like, but I would prefer not to have to paint immediately.
What about allowances for expansion on long rakes ~ 20 ft. I was planning to glue scarf joints. The rake trim will be mitered at the peak and will butt to Greek returns at the bottom, so how do I allow for adequate expansion without having it look like the first time. I could allow about 1/8 inch at each end a caulk, but is this the best (only) solution.
Can the crown moulding and rake trim (shingle moulding) be installed with finish nails?
Thanks as always for your wisdom and guidance here at Breaktime University!
Darin
Edited 6/4/2004 12:25 pm ET by Darin
Replies
I did all the trim on a good sized house in Permatrim (cellular PVC)( like Azek but it was what my yard carried at the time.) If I was to do it over again I'd probably use Azek. It looks a bit more uniform than what I used. That said, the stuff has held up great in a difficult climate (coastal Rhode Island) with no paint whatsoever. As I've said here before, it takes a bit more labor to put up because its kind of floppy especially on long boards. We used ss nails set by hand, then a dab of white caulk over that. Wouldn't do that again either because over time the caulked spot picks up dirt to a different degree than the PVC.
In talking to the Azek guy at the JLC show in Providence, you have to remember that the material undergoes negligable expansion and contraction due to humidity changes but considerable change due to temperature. Also unlike wood which primarily expands and contracts across the grain and almost none with the grain, PVC undergoes thermal expansion both ways because it is very uniform structurally. Soooo when you put it up you either have to allow for that expansion, or try to fight that expansion by holding it down with an aggressive nailing schedule. The Azek guy said that if you use the second approach you've got to use nails where the shanks have some structural rigidity to them. I'm sure you can probably get that from the Azek web site since I don't remember offhand what diameter shank they recommend.
If I can figure out how to post some pics of that house, I'll put them up. Good luck. Have fun.
We glued all joints with Gorilla PVC glue, which I believe is also manufacturing the Azek brand glue. Also, all butt and scarf joints were screwed off. Our window trim was pre-fabbed in our shop using glue and pocket-hole screws.
Our painter's filled all nail holes with bondo, then sanded.
Also, we rounded over all exposed edges which made for a richer, less-plastic-looking presentation.
Thanks, Darcy
What kind of nails did you use? If you use 8d galvanized or SS nails doesn't the "nose" on the coil or stick nailer leave marks on the Azek? Also, I don't find SS or galvanized nails that are not "ring shank" and Azek told me not to use ring shank nails since they can "blow-out" the back surface of the trim and cause stability problems down the road.
We were planing to use 8d finish nails on an aggressive nailing pattern (3 across the face of 5/4 x 8 @ 12-16 in centers, SS trim screws at all joints, glue with Gorilla at joints (scarf) and miters. We typically shoot most of the nails, but also use a fair number of hand nails in problem areas. All of the 5/4 X 8 and 1 X 8 will be on 2X8 sub-fascia or on plywood packing so the backing is continuous and solid. Do you see any problems or have any suggestions?
Thanks for your comments!
We used finish galvanized nails from 16 gauge guns, and aggressive nail schedule. Nope, never noticed the nailer leaving any marks. Galvanized screws. I don't actually know what Azek recommends, it would be a good idea to check their website. I worked with it in a production circumstance.
Your plan sounds good. My advice is bring a freind or two, it is heavy and floppy stuff. Also take extra care tying it on to your truck, it's very slippery.
Post some picks of your project if you can.
darcy
"Also, all butt and scarf joints were screwed off"
I was at the depot today and saw those "trapeze screws"(sp) and was wondering if
they would work on the azek or ifn anybody had tried em? Those are the screws that
have sort of a mushroom head and are hollow underneath.
I've used Azek for three years now here in Connecticut where we get a fair amount of temperature swing. My first time using it we hand nailed it with 8d ss ring shanks and used duoseal caulk at the joints. A season later, all the joints on the longer soffit runs (35ft) opened up. I've since been using PL 400 to glue the azek to a solid subsurface, and have used ss trim head screws, about two or three every 12". I also use azek glue at all joints. I have one project thats two years old now, and no joints have opened, and thats on a 25' soffit. I've painted all my azek, and have used bondo to fill all screw holes. I've found that mh ready patch, or any other fluff, doesn't hold well over time. Screwing off the trim is time consuming, and has to be done carefully so as not to strip the soft ss screw heads, but well worth it in the long run.
Thanks for the reply
So with the trim head screws(small head), it's basicaly just holding the azek until the
glue dries(is that a true statement?) and if so would a trim nail do the same thing?
man, does this sound labor intensive........
as if exterior trim didn't take long enough alreadycarpenter in transition
Sorry - I have questions not answers...
I'm doing a Screened porch right now and am planning to use Azek trim around a field of vinyl bead board for the ceiling. First time out with Azek. The homeowner wants a project that is as maint free as possible, but will still have a high end look. The vinyl soffit material I will use looks like painted wood - difficult to recognize it as plastic. (see attached sample pic) The Azek trim will break the field of the 14' x 20' ceiling into 6 rectangles giving the effect of a coffered ceiling.
I'd like not to paint the Azek trim, since, again, the homeowner wants reduced maintenance. BTW - I would not be doing the painting. My plan was to shoot the Azek up with 2.5" SS finish nails and caulk over the small nail holes. I plan the Azek adhesive to "weld" the joints as my supplier told me that other PVC glues may discolor whereas the Azek glue is color fast. I have what I thinks is a good plan for allowing for expansion with no butt (scarf) joints exposed, except at the 4 corners.
Does all that sound feasible? What would be my nailing schedule? Will the Azek tend to droop (bow down) in this ceiling application? Sounds like I may want to glue the Azek to the sub-straight above using construction adhesive...
Thanks for any comments,Matt
If you are going for a high end look, I believe the best way to achieve this is by chamfering the exposed edges of the Azek and painting. Just my opinion, but it looks plasticy and cheap without paint. Also, I doubt it would need repainting like a w ood product would, so maintainence should still be simple or nil.
Also, I suspect that over time, the areas you have used caulk might discolor if not painted. Here, dust always sticks to it.
Nice porch!
Thanks Darcy. I think this other porch ceiling is gonna look way cool with this faux coffered ceiling... I'll talk to the homeowner about painting the Azek. We hadn't discussed that specifically, and this guy is pretty agreeable. Re chamfering the edges - yea I can do that. More work though... I guess you are saying that the edges on the Azek are so sharp it looks like plastic.
Have we covered the recommended painting materials/techniques? I got the bondo part, but what kind of paint/primer (if necessary)?I have a brochure that my lumber yard gave me, but it's about 10 pages of worthless sales talk. On thing interesting it did say is that the glue is water based... That's surprising. Here is a link to the web site: http://www.azek.com/productinfo/installation/
Here is an excerpt from the web site:
Fastening
For best results, use fasteners designed for wood trim and wood siding (thinner shank, blunt point, full round head).
To take advantage of the performance of AZEK, use a highly durable fastener such as stainless steel or hot dipped galvanized.
Staples, small brads, and wire nails must not be used.
The fasteners should be long enough to penetrate the solid wood substrate a minimum of 11/2".
Standard nail guns work well with AZEK trim products.
Like wood, use 2 fasteners per every framing member for trimboard applications. Trimboards 12" or wider, as well as sheets, will require additional fasteners. See Figure 1 below.
Fasteners must be installed no more than 2" from the end of each board. See Figure 2 below.
AZEK should be fastened into a flat, solid substrate. Fastening AZEK into hollow or uneven areas must be avoided.
Pre-drilling is typically not required unless a large fastener is used or product is installed in low temperatures.
3/8" and 1/2" sheet product is not intended to be ripped into trim pieces. These profiles must be glued to a substrate and mechanically fastened.
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I plan to use SS 15 gauge trim gun nails, partially because that is what I have. The above is a bit inspecific about nail types... I'm not planning to go buy a $250 box of SS sinding nails though...Matt
Here is a pic of the screened porch ceiling I mentioned I was doing in an above post. Vinyl T-2 siding bead board and Azek trim boards.
I nailed the Azek trim boards on ~12" centers with 2 or three 15 ga SS finish nails. Used construction adhesive, and have slip joints at the ceiling perimeter and fan medallions to allow for expansion. Per manufactures recommendation I covered nail holes with a vinyl spackle with an exterior rating. Homeowner did the painting. I talked him into the dual fans (15x19 porch) and electrician sold him on the 6 recessed lights with dimmer control.
Sorry, but take a look at the pic and then I'll say that you vinyl nay-sayers can kiss my a$$ :-) Vinyl can look awesome if done right...
Matt
i like it... we use a lot of Koma trim ( same as Azek as far as i can tell)..
here's Barry with the rail caps he made... PVC cement , tacked with SS brads until the cement bonded..
everything in the 2d pic is all Koma except the false sill under the Andersen windows.. those are Trex
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 7/31/2004 11:12 pm ET by Mike Smith
awesome goatee !
carpenter in transition
tim... can we stick to the Azek ?....
but i will tell Barry you liked itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey Mike can you tell me more abought those false sills. I am working on a house that has anderson windows and would like to give them a traditional looking sill with horns. They have a small sill built into the unit that looks like azz, or at least it will if detailed as is. Do you have a cross section drawing or pic of your sill detail?
rein.... if you use OLD trex.. it is 1.25 x 5.5.. working with a 10 degree bevel.. you rip it in half..
then cut a 1/2 x 1/2 dadoe on one edge and a 1/8 drip on the front bottom..
to fasten , we back drill thru and screw from the front... then bondo the holes..
new Trex is a little narrower.. so adjust..
we'll be ripping several hundred feet tomorrow.. so i'll show you some pics is i rememberMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That is great layout and design - well balanced, and I like the transom grid at the top of the opennings.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks. I don't think the homeowner understood exactly what I was trying to do, but gave me the go-ahead to do what I thought would look good.
It was hard trying to get a picture of the finished product ceiling. My digi camera doesn't have good wide angle capibilities.
The transome grids goes with the hrozontal/verticle lattice that wraps the bottom part of the deck/porch. Maybe I should do a thread in the BT picture gallery.Matt
Matt, I'd like to see more pics. The proportions are pleasing.
Also, what are specs on that beadboard? Thickness, in particular. And, did you have to deal with sagging?
Again, nice, clean work. Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Matt,
The porch looks great! I am also interested in the beadboard. I have an 8' X 43' porch that I put on the front of my place and everything is being trimmed with Azek. I want to use some sort of beadboard on the ceiling and I like the looks of your porch, not to mention the excellent work! Please give use some details on the product and how you installed it as well as the backing (on the ceiling joists or solid backing).
Darcy, I'll send some pictures soon. I have filled about 4-500 nail holes (seems like 2000!) and I'm about halfway done. I have a way to go with sanding, priming, and painting, but the results are great. I have had many people drive by and stop to tell me how great it looks, so far none have volunteered to help though!
Here is the link for the soffit material:
http://www.certainteed.com/CertainTeed/Undefined/Siding/Prodindex/Vinyl/AshlandDavis/Vinyl+Carpentry™+Soffit+and+Vertical+Siding.htm
If that link doesn't work, go to the CertainTeed home page and drill down to vinyl siding: http://www.certainteed.com It is the Triple 2" product that I installed. I think the pieces are about 12'6" long, so if you have an 8' wide porch you would have quite a bit of waste, as to me the secret to this kind of install is to not let any vinyl end seams show. So, you would run the vinyl panels in the 8' direction and end up with about a 30% waste factor :-(. The stuff was about $7 per piece, 6" wide, so your material cost would be around $600, but when you consider there is no finishing needed, it's not such a bad deal.
It comes in an "invisible vented" version and solid which are the same price. I used two courses of the invisible vent panels at the outboard edge of the porch to give a little more ventilation than the metal strip vents gave to the sofits.
Matt
The profile thickness of the material is 3/8". The actual vinyl is around .040" I think. As far as sagging, I always fir down a vinyl ceiling with 2x4s or 2x3s laid flat either on 16" or 12" centers, depending on what is above, and have never had a problem with sagging. I have this particular vinyl material on both my own personal front and back porches and after 5 years, no probs. Can't remember weather I went 16" or 12" though, but I think it was 16". The furring makes the vinyl install go much easier and no sag worries.
I'm gonna start a pic thread in the photo gallery on the whole project.Matt
Good deal, see ya there>>> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I am not familiar with those type of screws, could you post a picture? I would check with Azek to ensure the warranty is not voided by using the wrong fasteners.