I was wondering what is acceptable back charging? I am doing a basement development andrunning short of time so I told the painting contractor to back charge me on the drywall deficiencies. There was quite a few and he did a good job fixing them but he is way out of line with his billing. The HO is contracting it himself so I don’t know exactly what to do.
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Maybe your painter is simply unsure of how to accurately price the charges as the need doesn't present itself very often. Give him the benefit of the doubt and try a reasonable low-key conversation with him to start. Start by praising the great job he did then ease into asking him how he arrived at his number.
However, if he just charged you his hourly rate (which you are normally comfortable with) and it took him longer than you think it should have....well.... you and your client are SOL. Pay the bill promptly in that situation and learn from it.
I'm not sure this fits the description of backcharging if he was not working for you in the first place. If the HO is GC, then the painter was working for him, right? Then the HO would backcharge you.
but you can't second guess after the fact like this.
If I was the paionter, and bid the job at a rate where I am making a hundred an hour, and there was four hours of work of yours that I had to do for you, guess what?
No - it would be more than four bills, because now you have slowed me down, and put me off scedule. tioming for drying stuff like this can take time, so scedule is everything. A two hour job or delay can ruin an eight hour day.
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I'm sure he is overcharging. He probably didn't want to do the drywall repair work. He knew you needed it done, figured he make a few extra bucks. I'd have a talk with him, and figure it out. If the home owner hired him, and you asked him to do the wall work you could get stuck paying.
Maybe you could play the "this is going to affect any future work"card and see what happens. I'd probably just pay though, cause he'll drag you through the mud with the homeowner.
That could be happening already anyways, There is missing information here. It could be the painter backcharged the HO fifty bicks and the HO is telling the mudman that the backcharge is two hundred and pockeeting the diff. GCs have been known to do thatm ya know.
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what is a "basement delevopment" ...
what exactly are "you" doing ...
why is time short ...
why are there "quite a few" "deficiencies ...
and just how is he out of line with his billing?
btw ... you didn't ask him to "backcharge" you.
You asked him to front charge you!
you asked him to go ahead and finish the drywall. Which it sounds like he did.
It also seems like you didn't ask what the price would be.
He presented his bill ...
and now ... go figure ... he probably charges more per hour than you do.
and now you are mad because the painter charged his prices ... and not yours.
do I have a good handle on this?
cost more to bail a sinking boat out than it does to buy a dry one in the first place ....
or words to that effect.
Jeff
A basement development is when you take an empty basement(concrete walls) and finish it the same as the rest of the house. My part is to frame, insulate, poly, Drywall. My time is short because it is BUSY season around here and I am very busy trying to keep my customers happy. On the topic of the deficiencies is that it wasn't the best tape job on earth. But any easy fix after the primer is on. Out of line on the billing is twelve hours of labour at $63.00 an hour. First of all I know that he nor any of his employs were at the times he said, also know that his guys aren't paid top dollar and that he has little overhead. This is why I am having a hard time justifying such a high bill. As far as him finishing the drywall I wouldn't go that far. I am from western Canada and we do are own checkout. Meaning after the primer coat we go backover the walls and look for any bumps or nicks in the DW. This is what I asked him to do and he did a good job of that. I guess in the end I will have to pay him what he billed but I still think that he is taking advantage of the situation.
Gimmee a break.
You ask the guy to finish your job which was admittedly poorly done.
You don't ask ahead what it will cost.
Then you say HE is taking advantage of YOU????Looks the other way around to me.
You not only presumed on his time and scedule,but you are presuming on his rates. If you wanted it done for your rate, you should have done it!Next time, learn to do your negotiating ahead of ordering work done.
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I have used him before and he he didn't charge near that much per hour so I just assumed that it would be the same or close to. Also have done work for him when he was in a bind with a much more reasonable bill. As for negotiating over the bill i used to do that alot but now I use all the same trades and have a handle on their pricing so I get them to do the work and bill me. I have found that it saves me alot of time and money. This is why I feel that his price is unreasonable. Some days I do five estimates a day so you can see why i would assume the same pricing would be used.
You are saying a lot about how you do business here.You make assumptions.You are too busy to do the work you have so you are farming it out without close managementBut een tho you cannot get around to doing the work you have already, you are doing multiple estimates in a dayLooks like you neeed to work on your management skills and set some priorities and proof your own rates
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It seems to me that there's only one question to ask before you write the painter a check for getting you out of a jam and taking care of your client for you. That question is "The $63/hour rate seems higher than what you charged me in the past. Why is that, and when does that higher rate apply, so I can figure on it in my future pricing?"
It may be that he has a rate that he uses for fellow subs, and one that he uses for homeowners, and his office assistant used the wrong rate on your bill- no harm, no foul. Or, maybe he raised rates recently because he was losing money at the old rate.
Whatever the reason, ask the question, accept the answer, and move on- maybe he'll acknowledge a mistake and adjust the bill. If you're truly as busy as you say you are and you're bent out of shape over a $700 bill (for what would obviously have cost you some amount to complete if you did the repair yourself, anyway), maybe it's time to raise YOUR rates to cover the "whoopsies" that happen in this wonderful world of construction.
With regard to your original question on the "acceptable way to backcharge"- the proper way is to either establish the amount up front and agree to it, fix the problem yourself and avoid the situation altogether, or do as you did, and deal with it.
Bob
also know that his guys aren't paid top dollar and that he has little overhead. This is why I am having a hard time justifying such a high bill.
At the risk I may come off offensive, I'll preface by saying I"m not trying to be offensive. But...what is it any business of yours how much he pays his help or how much overhead he has? Maybe this is his way of increasing some of his working capital to invest in his business by charging higher rates to boost his gross profit some. Or maybe he has done an analysis of his financials and spotted a problem where his sales and revenues are off balance some compared to his gross profit and he's charging more to balance things out. The fact is you don't know anyones business, you can only assume. Maybe he's divorced, paying high child support and trying to make a living for his own, too. Maybe maybe maybe, you don't know his situation. Just because you feel it's too much money doesn't mean that it is.
I"m sure there are other mitigating circumstances which may justify your irritability in the situation, and so I give you the benefit of the doubt as well in not knowing all that you do. But still in the end, it's no one elses business what the guy does with his money or how he charges but his own. Yoiu have a choice not to use him again or to never use him as a sub for other work. Then again, maybe he did charge higher because he didn't want the job but since he got it, well by gosh, he's charging the higher fee. Don't you do that on jobs you'd rather pass up but if you get then you consider the larger charge a PITA charge?
I agree with you about his overhead not being my business. My business is to provide an income for myself. I can't do that if I am paying someone more than I am charging for the work. Normally there is a reason for charging so much. Not in this case. If I have to eat the bill then I do, I guess I should have asked if there is any sort of etiquette for this type of situation.
If its busy season for you, it probably is for him too. And the hourly rate you quoted does not seem out of line for the industry. Not knowing the extent of the work, I can't comment as to the man-hour total. But it seems like there may have been some drying time, schedule delays, etc. incorporated. Once sheetrock has been sealed, drying time changes dramatically, esp. in a room without a lot of fresh air flow.As far as his overhead and what he pays his guys, I don't see how that should be any concern to you, unless you're his accountant.And as far as the amount of time the job took, its a matter of trust. I'm wondering...if you don't trust him, why didn't you have him bid the repairs? You're busy making money with lots of jobs lined up, the painter did a nice job and so your customer will likely be happy, and his bill is a little high, but still under a grand. I can think of a lot worse scenarios.