Hey folks,
I was in business for 14 years before going to work for the local building dept. and since then have been amazed at actually how many bad contractors there are! Guys that walk away from a job, guys that do unpermitted work, and guys that just do crappy work and take folks money.
We issue them citations but what else can be done to stop this?
I recommend folks hire an attorney but after someone has been burned for $4-5k or so from a job, they are hard-pressed to spend a few extra grand for an attorney.
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Mike
Replies
Buyer Beware.
If people checked references and visited work in progress, this wouldn't happen very often. I provide references with every bid. The first reference is a current, ongoing project--so the potential client can see my work--while it is happening. I also provide references for jobs from each of the last four months.
The strange thing is that only about 1 in ten even bother to check up on me.
Nationally the average contactor satisfaction rate is about 50%. Half of the unsatisfied cite poor work, The others complain of schedule trouble, and poor communications...and oh yeah, THE BILL--it's twice what they were told.
Of course, talk to contractors (even just good ones) and they may only like half of their customers as well (we have a similar list of complaints--but I digress).
I think it all comes down to a lack of trust and understanding. Peoples preconcieved notion is that all contractors are out to screw people. Couple that with a mis-understanding that things cost money.
I've had the unfortunate experience as a contractor of people not realizing that if they want something different, it will cost them. My experience has been, people have this feeling of "I'm spending alot of money as it is, so I have the right to tweak things a little if I want to.."
A home is a person's single biggest investment, so when it comes to modify it, people get funny...
I have been flip side for some time as well. As a construction manager, I've seen bad contractors that should not be in business..Having defaulted a GC on public project, I have experienced the legal implications of a bad contractor and what it takes to protect the "Owner"...
So maybe the answer is a service that brokers residential projects. A third party who makes sure the contractors are viable, qualified, insured entities for the size of project planned, one who expedites plans to the AHJ and acertains permits and inspections, or even certifies certain portions of the work for the AHJ...and also ensures the financing from the home-owner is in place and makes timely payments to the contractor's...
Yes, this sounds like a construction manager for commercial work..but it would have owner's rep, legal, and financial input as well...
Maybe work on a pecentage of the project or fixed fee....
Thoughts????
Edited 3/2/2005 9:50 am ET by MJLONIGRO
I often do construction inspection for a company called Cocomar. These inspections are mostly to insure to the bank that the work has been done. However it would not take much to include quality of work performed in these inspections. The problem is that the banks don't care about quality. All they care about is the money.
Kipherr
Their just trying to make a living.
Not much can be done . Its always been the survival of the fittest.
They get weeded out and more crop up , but they have to keep trying.
Tim Mooney
Their just trying to make a living.
huh? It's okay to rip people off because they're just trying to make a living? You don't really mean that, do you?
SHG
Yes I was kidding , but its really the truth about not being able to do a lot about it .
Ok, close the border down with Mexico. Can I expect to have that done by tomorrow morning ? Why not ?
Because it isnt going to happen . Evidently their family members are starving over there and the ones comming here are just trying to make a living. So stop them!
I didnt remember him saying they were ripping people off . Ill have to read it again. People doing shoddy work , , what hes worried about is working unlisensed . They are trying to make a living . He cant stop them. The President of the US cant stop them so he wants them to join us . No one seems to be able to stop them. So one buildintg inspector is going to change things?
People are going to work requardless of their skills or training . When it comes to eating , they really dont care what he thinks.
Edit back in; Guys that walk away from a job, guys that do unpermitted work, and guys that just do crappy work and take folks money
None of that is a criminal offense except working with out a lisense. Then its only a slap on the hand if they arent lisensed at all. If they hold a lisense they may take out wrath on them. They leave cause they cant handle it ?? Why else would they leave otther than knowing they wont be paid. Nearly all untrained home owners do crappy work and that is where they originate. As the old man said to me one time ;" I had to learn on someone. "
Tim Mooney
Edited 3/2/2005 11:15 am ET by TIMMOONEY52
I didn't see anything about the bad guys speaking Spanish. Seems like you might be overlaying some personal concerns.
People hanging out a shingle to be a GC when they aren't qualified or honest is a problem for all competent and honest GCs. It caused the HOs to doubt your integrity, to challenge your workmanship, to make additional demands to protect themselves from you, to harbor internal doubts about you that will manifest themselves whenever the littlest thing goes wrong.
There have been thousands of posts over the years of guys complaining about HOs who check up on them, question them and challenge them. Most people here say they wouldn't work for someone like that. But when there's a post about incompetent or dishonest GCs, everybody chimes in like the Hallelujah Choir about how the HOs should have checked them out, challenged their claims, etc. So is that only true for the other guys, but not for the people here? Is that only true for people with Spanish accents, but not red-blooded 110% American contractors?
Here, people talk about asking to paid for submitting a proposal, when the HO doesn't know you from Adam. How much should HOs blindly pay incompetent or dishonest contractors for proposals. Why are people here entitled, but others are inherently untrustworthy.
My whole point here is that bad GCs, and we all know there are plenty of incompetent and dishonest ones out there (and maybe a couple in here from time to time), make all GCs look bad to the public. It's in the interest of a good GC to stop bad GCs. Making excuses for them, or just shrugging it off, is self-destructive.
SHG
I didn't see anything about the bad guys speaking Spanish. Seems like you might be overlaying some personal concerns
I didnt say it either but whats the difference ? Is there any differnce ? Why if Mexicans cant be stopped , we should try to stop anyone else ? I agree everyone should get the same treatment . Why should Mexicans be permitted to work illegally and not white and black people which have already paid for this country in blood? Close the border and we will discuss being fair.
Tim Mooney
Paid for this country in blood? Calm down. (Actually, blood was shed, by Mexicans and Americans, when much of Mexico was ripped off by Americans to become the "American" Southwest.) Slamming immigrants, legal or otherwise does nothing to advance a discussion on bad contractors.
World war I , and 2 . Veitnam , Desert Storm , and our current wars.
I guess youre not from here.
I wish people would read my posts . I havent slammed anyone .
We arent talking about builders. They are easy to control. They get their water and electric shut off on them. Hes talking abut small outfits doing trade work. Unlicensed people . Unexperienced people. They all have to start somewhere and normally do. They are just trying to make a living . They arent bad people as a general rule. Theyre just trying to eat just like Mexicans.
Tim Mooney
Not from here? Why in the world would you think that? Because my name isn't American-sounding like "Tim"? Because I object to your jingoistic slurs against immigrants and Mexicans particularly? For your information I am a native-born American, veteran (US Army 1963-66, enlisted) and a registered voter.
And I truly do not see what any of this bickering between us has to do with the issue of bad contractors.
And I truly do not see what any of this bickering between us has to do with the issue of bad contractors.
me either
Peace, brother.
Hey I'm glad you guys shook hands and made up...Besides, your battle was hijacking my thread!!! ;) I'm just playing around.
Seriously though, Florida DOES have Statewide licensing and we can take a guys license (not often though as the lawyers get involved and threaten us so we don't). Its just still amazing at how many complaints we get about jobs. I really wish there was a better way of enforcement or at least a way we can distance ourselves from these jobs gone bad if just the contractor and the homeonwer had covered all their bases before hand...
There have been thousands of posts over the years of guys complaining about HOs who check up on them, question them and challenge them.
Are you sure about that? I'd be hard pressed to remember any, but thousands? I don't think so
John
Are you sure about that? I'd be hard pressed to remember any, but thousands? I don't think so
Maybe even millions. I didn't keep count.
In the gold rush days in western Montana, when the law enforcement system couldn't or wouldn't enforce the law, the good guys got together and hanged the bad guys.
As a homeowner who's been renovating a house for the past three years, I've run across good and bad, but I have to say that there seems to be more bad/greedy operators of late. And I've noticed that many of the young techs and tradesmen they send out are just plain ignorant (probably a reflection of what's been happening in our schools).
When you combine greedy management with low ethics and ignorance at the hammer level, the result is homeowners who quickly become suspicious or even paranoid.
Like you, I'm amazed almost daily at the quality of some of the work I see. Unfortunately, some of the responsibility can be laid squarely on the homeowner.
How many times have you met with a customer and heard about how they want top quality work............but have a limited budget. How many times have you talked with a customer who absolutely refuses to believe that your labor rates don't just disappear into your bank account. Try talking about paying your own overhead and you suddenly realize that most people have very little understanding of what it actually costs their employer to keep them around.
And some of my personal favorites inlude the homeowner who has watched a few too many DIY shows, tried to do something, and now needs to be bailed out - or he has a "buddy" who doesn't know half of what he wants people to think he knows. - lol These folks usually start choking when you describe how you have to spend time (i.e. $$$) undoing what they (or their buddy) had done - just so you could now do it the right way.
Oh yeah, there are a lot of schlock contractors around but far too many homeowners practically beg these jokers to rip them off. Sometimes, I really wish that the FCC would require This Old House to include Tom, Rich, and Norm's labor rates in each show - along with the actual market cost of the work they do on an episode. - lol
> I really wish that the FCC would require This Old House to include Tom, Rich, and Norm's labor rates in each show - along with the actual market cost of the work they do on an episode
In the early days, Bob Vila used to include some budget discussion on the show.
-- J.S.
I think its a combination of "this old house" type shows and also the availability of price information from both the internet and the box stores. People have no idea what the labor rates consist of. Whatever they make at a corporate job is not just their salary but the paid vacation, paid sick days, paid holidays, pension/retirement plan, medical and dental coverage, etc. All these people look at is what they make an hour, they don't include all the benefits that probably cost the company at least as much as the salary portion. When they hire a contractor, they are thinking X dollars an hours, they don't consider that the contractor pays his own benefits and a vacation or sick day is not a paid day. Also, they don't consider tool costs, insurance, worker comp, etc.
The Home Depot crap advertisement line "You can do it, we can help" is example. I think most of these people because of HD's selling skills to these lemmings and this old house and the others, really think that they can do it and do it like it looks on TV. They really are very naive and cannot understand that those people on tv do it day in a day out and do for a career. That being said, I think some can do it but that is only at about 10 percent and they don't shop at HD.
.
Other day I listened to a tale of woe from a lady who had hired out a contractor to reroof their house.
The guy had gotten the roofing torn off and had begun the new shingles.
Then left with a partially completed roof and didn't return.
Did not return messages. Ruined the drywall inside which homeowners insurance would cover but not the roofing job that caused it.
They had to hire another contractor who had to remove the other's work so he could warrant his.
Discovered the first contractor had cut the icewater shield in half to stretch the materials.
Was also leaving gaps between shingle each ends so less shingles would be needed.
It's now in the courts.
Should be funny but it's not.
be not roaring
SanchoRon the caballero bowed low as he waved his sombrero and said ...goodbye.
Interesting thoughts guys...Thanks for sharing.
I wish I could just tell folks it IS "buyer beware" but we get an average of 75 complaints per month and many of these come down from our county administrators who when the homeowner calls them, they get promised the world and then we have to back peddle out of it.
I just wish there was a way to bring everyone to the table PRIOR to a job starting and work out the details before the first shovelful of dirt is ever moved.
I cannot believe how many folks complain about the most trival of items and yet how many contractors screw up a job bigtime and then just try to walk away from it...
Oh well, I guess I shouldn't complain as thats why I have a job!!!
I was waiting for someone to say license...........still no takers.
I would gladly take a very stringent test on construction standards and techniques, as well as ETHICS and expect to pass.
A portion of my fee, as well as a portion of fees for building permits would go into a fund to help ho's that have come to find themselves in less than desireable situations do to hiring a contractor who has less than satisfactorily completed their project.
In my county you must be licensed. All this takes is a check to the clerk and proof of liability and comp or a waiver. Done.
So any idiot that can swing the cash can become a lecensed 'Home Improvement Contractor' in Westchester County.
It is a misdemeanor to offer for sale or perform home improvements with out a license. It is also unlawful to not include your license # on all written materials or advetisements.
The county does just about next to nothing about enforcing those two laws even when it is shoved in their face. Once or twice during an election year they will have some type of enforcement action, but it is a joke.
In the meanwhile, there are ho's getting shafted everyday of the week.
What we need is a state by state licencing and insurance system that actually qualifies one to be a contractor. And enforcement with heavy fines and license revocations for offenders. Enough allready.
They do it for plumbers and electricians, why not Contractors?
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I should add this.
The agency that runs our licensing is the Dept. of Consumer Protection.
They demand that any contract include a date of completion........what, are they planning on helping me??
They also reccomend to consumer to never give money up front to get a job started!!!!
AND, withhold at LEAST 1/3 of the total until the job is complete!!
Who's gonna work like that??
NOT me!
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Eric , you bring on very realistic points.
State wide requirements including insurance would protect the homeowner . Be careful of what you wish for as it would take a big check to fund enforcement. I fully agree with you in point.
That said , Im hearing a lot of slack from people comming in here from Cal state. That type of thing and the expense of such things ran them out ! I believe Cal sucks financially plus their losing their people. I stand to be corrected .
The real question is ; What does the public want as a whole?
We have had 22 police officers and a part time inspector . One of those has a problem , depends on how you want to look at it. Right now the city will pay the officers , but would not pay the inspector. The city doesnt have an inspector anymore. There is also no code inforcement officer on the payroll. This happened the first of the year. I believe the people deserve what their paying for and protection on homes they are not . They are spending their money fighting drugs and crime in a town of 8000 people ! Thats correct . 22 full time officers in a town of 8,000 with no employed inspector or code enforcement officer.
Tim Mooney
The mexican crew that comes in here are the best craftman around. I would hie a mexican crew in a heartbeat.
Do you want a fix of bad contractors?
There is a fix but contractors will not like it, neither will the property owner.
Not enough people will bug the states for the laws that are need to get rid of the bad contractors. It will take a lot people being very vocal to get the state legislatures to over look all the lobbyist $1000 a plate diners
One part is to qualify for limited special contractors license like ( tile, flooring, roofing, window & door, cabinets, mason ) you need 2000 hrs of work and take a one day test to eligible for the limited license. For a General contractors license that would include also including framing and enter into contracts with sub contractors you would need to work for 10,000 hours under a general contractor. The test for the general contractor license will take four or five days to complete to let you be eligible to get a license from the state if you get general liability ins. worker comp. The fine for working as a contractor with out a license should be $1000 dollars the first time.
Now the PROPERTY if owner hires an unlicensed or uninsured carpenter the owners get a fine of $10,000 dollars. Defense would be property owner has a photocopy of the contractor’s license that has a picture of the contractor on it. A long with a statement from all the insurance carriers that this person is insured for this job.
Doing work with out permits that are required; the fine is $10,000 per permit both the property owner and contractor fined.
Next, require the county or city to hirer enough qualified plan checkers and building inspectors to nit pick the job. Frailer to invigilate reported code violations by the building inspectors $1000 per frailer. The permits to be issued in prompt and timely manner.
Frailer to invigilate reported code violations by the building inspectors $1000 per frailer.
I just hate those frailers to invigilate. Even frailers to undervigilate piss me off.
SHG
Lets not speak just about crooked contractors.There are crooked everybodies.
I've had my share of crooked HO's that wouldn't give me my last payment simply because they felt they could get away with it.
One in Llyod Harbor( he was a doctor AND a lawyer) that totally and completely fabricated a story about me cursing at his wife and saying I told her I don't need your F'n money etc etc(yeh right, I work in your house for a month cause I'm having fun) and one very wealthy Indian gent that lived in a mansion on the water in Oyster Bay that said I left spackle all over his floor while patching a hole in his ceiling therefore he didnt owe me the last $1500 because he had to have his butler and maid clean up after me (no lie....I'm not kidding) after I sweated my arse off in a laundry area with the drier on all day by the maid in August while I was building closets and tiling in there..
I believe Shaggy was there in court when I sued him.It works both ways too
Be well aware and simply be ethical and honest or sue the bastardss.
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
How many home owners have checked your job with a fine tooth comb and a 500 watt light ??? I get a lot of them. And they wont finish the pay until those pesky pin holes you can see with a flashlight and small magnifying glass are fixed. I'm serious, This is what I deal with. The good thing is I've become overly concessions on jobs, makes me a better drywaller in this case. Everyone's idea of what it should be when it's done is different. Then you've got people that aren't going to finish paying you, and they know this when they sign the work sheet.... I think the best one for me was, but there's an eighth inch gap between the baseboard and wall....I said, that is bad, I'll be right over. You couldn't slide a piece of paper between the wall and board. I said I'd fix it later (when they weren't at home) My painters caulk and I went to work....OHHH it's just lovely they said. Now, painters caulk is now a permanent fixture next to my finish nailer in the tool box... How to get rid of sloppy job GC's, They will eventually fall through the cracks when word gets out.
GB
The same kind of proposal has been implemented in some states to solve the problem of bad teachers. Tougher licensing, limited subjuct area, more training, etc. The consequence has been even fewer "qualified teachers" (fewer willing to jump trough all the hoops=teacher shortage). As a result the shortage has generated new programs to circumvent the traditional and now tougher, teacher training and licensing. So now if you have a degree and no teacher training you can skip the two years of teacher courses and take a crash summer course and jump into a classroom for a patchwork of on the job training.