This is bothering me although I’d like to write the customer a letter, I imagine I’ll just let it pass, but need to vent here and see what others say — just to ‘check’ myself.
About a year and half ago we installed some kitchen cabinets for some people who live close by. Got the job from the parents of a friend of my daughter’s.
The homeowner had us bid on doing their bathroom and their kitchen. They got a bid on the kitchen cabinets and install from H.D. and although were set on buying the cabinets from there, asked us to bid on the install. I wanted us to do the cabinets, so underbid the H.D. bid slightly to get the job. We bid the bathroom install realistically with a couple of plumbers we use. Since the bathroom needed an extensive plumbing overhaul, they shied from that and hired a relative to do the bathroom and asked us to to do the kitchen.
Now mind you, this was an old victorian in a well settled neighborhood and the husband didn’t work, so spent most of his time fiddling with the house and ‘restoring’ it. I put that term in quotes because not only was he no carpenter by any stretch, but he also didn’t seem the type to spend much time reading or learning about something prior to jumping in head first, if you know what I mean.
Anyway, he hired the electrician himself, didn’t pull a permit for whatever reason and thus went nuts when I put out a site sign and demanded I remove it. First sign that I regretted getting the job.
After a lot of mishaps with their H.D. order and apparent miscommunication with electrician and homeowner, we got the cabinets and the countertop installed. They also had us install new cabinets in an open space where the husband had completely removed the original built-in cabinets in the dining room (why oh why do people feel compelled to rip out and destroy on a whim?). That was difficult as nothing fit correctly (of course) and although the husband insisted on controlling the ordering and planning, certain major parts were ignored and we were left to attempt to recover from his bad planning and poor understanding of finish work (basemoldings, flooring issues).
We installed the cabinets and they turned out very well considering the problems we had to deal with. Also, we were asked to replace sheetrock from plaster that was gutted from two other rooms. We also felt this was well done although it took us quite a while to get a perfect surface over the uneven ceiling joists. Often, instead of proceeding as we wanted, the husband would say, “Ah, just go ahead and do it this way/that way because we won’t notice and we need to get it done.”
The wife chastised husband for messing up the floor with plaster on floors he did not want to bother to cover, for which he blamed us (found out through daughter to daughter communication). Also, H.D. tried to blame us for their mismeasuring of the original kitchen sizes, although we had nothing to do with measuring or communicating with them at all — husband was supposedly handling this.
Anyway, I see the wife a few times and get told they are happy as ever with the ‘beautiful’ kitchen, etc. Then daughter tells me they are considering hiring us to fix their roof and rebuild their back porch. I inquire later if they’d like to discuss this further and am told that they will not hire us as they are unhappy with the kitchen work.
????
I’m left to wonder unhappy about what kitchen work? When we left the project all was well and I was even invited a few times to come and see the ‘new kitchen’ all decorated and take pics. Now this.
Should I just pass them off as unpredictable flakes or should I follow with a letter to understand their dissatisfaction and try to see if the situation can rectified, or if we’re being blamed for something that isn’t our fault at all (poor performance of cabinets?).
What’s you take? I’ve never had a problem that I couldn’t fix and make into a happy customer, so this is bothering me.
Replies
I inquire later if they'd like to discuss this further and am told that they will not hire us as they are unhappy with the kitchen work.
Did someone tell you directly that they were unhappy with the kitchen work, or are you hearing this through a third party?
Your intent is great and I applaud you for patience but, do you really need this type of customer?
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Not clear in your post whether you ended up underbidding the installation-only side of the cabinet job.
It sounds as though you under-bid the complete job including supplying the cabinets, but then eneded up only doing the install.
If you've already found out through your daughter that you are being blamed for poor workmanship from the husband and taking credit for bad decisions that were really the client's and HD's then I'd say you already know what you need to know to stay away from any more work for this client.
These may be the type of people that will complain about anything you do no matter the result and you'll never even really know about it.
I did a laundry room renovation for a client that I thought might be a problem client because when I first inspected the job, all she did was show me the previous work done on her house and complain about every single contractor she's had in there. Now some of the work warranted her complaining, and I figured most of the problems were caused by lack of communication on the contractor's part, and that I would do better in that respect.
So I did the laundry room job and it went great, and she seemed very happy with it. I figured I had addressed her every concern and need and we had ended up with a very successful project.
And it very well may have - but I've never once received another call from her to do anymore work - and I've been relatively in touch with her after that job. I think she's just a flaky client that's never really satisfied with anything she has done. Better to quit while you're ahead I think...
So - did you make money on the cabinet install or sortof lose money because of a low bid to get the job?
Never fails - the jobs where you cut the price cause you want the job for whatever reason are always the ones where the clients either are not totally happy with or they have some little niggly thing to complain about. It's like doing jobs for friends or familiy sometimes.
JT
I'd be happy to get away from such people. You'll never make them happy because that's not their aim in life. And you'll never get proper credit for your work because the husband wants to take all that for himself. He's not that unusual but now that you know the type, you'll be able to avoid them. Or you'll learn how to deal with them.
I've found that if I take charge, most homeowners will accept me as the authority and follow what I ask them to do. I don't abuse that position, I just use it to keep the job running smoothly and profitably. I give the homeowners an opportunity every day to ask questions or express concerns but I don't allow them to participate or interfere with me...ever. I tell them that while we're writing up our agreement...during working hours it's our job site, not your home.
That way I can shift gears mentally, at the end of each work day, relax and have a pleasant chat with them about the day's activities, etc.
stay away from people like that for your own sanity life is too short to worry about them if they are that way
there are some people who no matter what you do you will never please them because thats just the way they are
all my better customers become business friends and will often call me up to discuss many issues because they know i often know a lot of onusual people due to my business dealings
ive also been told " i do not tolerate fools gladely" or im a stick of dinamyte with a short fuse , as a result i try to not let ah's like the one you are discussing get to me
One little thing i learned and it took me 30 years " never act or look like you need that job" or you never will get piles again after they get done reaming your butt out"
As we remodelers are eternal optomists we tend to believe if we do good work at a fair price everyone will be happy. We also think that if we take responsibility for our actions everyone else will too. Nothing could be further from the truth.
We have for the last two years dealt with 100 + customers a year. Every year we get 2-3 of clients like this one. Some complain openly, some behind your back. The open complainers are never satisified and the target moves constantly. The behind the back folks simply don't tell you because they don't want to risk hearing it might be partially or all of there fault.
A few thoughts for the future. Don't underbid any phase of a job intentionally. Everytime I did this I got only that part of the job. Then made no money. Bid each phase on it's own merits in case that is all you get. The minute you work with subs that aren't your you lose. Just my experience.
Blood is always thicker than water. You can write letters, ask for a meeting, chat at the PTA meeting about it but the fact is the hubby isn't going to admit he's wrong and she will back him. I told a young man recently who was working for a couple who couldn't make up their minds what they wanted to keep in mind that while they might not be on the same team, he was on neither team. The minute he tried to join a team they would become a team and he would be out. True every time.
You did the best you could under bad circumstances. Leave it alone, learn from it and go on. When you see them just act like they are sincere in what they say and said about liking your work. You wouldn't have known if not for the daughter and that is an unusual situation to have available. DanT
Move on with life and consider yourself lucky to be shed of them.
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Part of learning the business is learning to read the warning signs from the beginning. The minute the HO wants to be involved in the hands on, especially somebody who doesn't work and is at home all the time calling the shots...red flag. I suppose if you needed the job bad enough, it's worth it.
Also, don't let here say get to you. Where are you getting your information from?
If you are to do any more work for these people, I would spell absolutely everything out to the Tee on a signed contract and then give them a very high bid. Make them agree not to do any of their "sweat equity" stuff with you. Chances are they won't go with you for the job which in the long run is best.
The average HO does not know the day to day ins and outs of what it takes to do a job right. All the little half hour TV handyman and "how to" shows in the world are going to do it either.
It's best to move on. Customers like this only bring you trouble and upset in the long run.
Great advice in this thread from pros who have been there/done that. I can't add a whole lot that wouldn't repeat what the others have said, except to say - I know how you feel.
If you feel the need to please your customers, and you go above and beyond to accomplish this, you really expect the customer to see and appreciate this. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. Not your fault. You have to let it go, chalk it up to experience, try to recognize these types of people before you are in a situation you can't win.
So move on. With your attitude, I'm sure you have many satisfied customers, and will have many more.
These other folks are not happy, never will be, and they want you to be the same way.
Luck to you.
_______________________________________________________________
It ain't what you make, it's what you don't spend
I read that what yopu want to do is protect your reputation, as I would. I think a phone call to the wife would be the best way of doing it. Ask her directly if she is happy with the work. Don't bring up the comments you have heard from the husband unless she does. And when the call is over and she admits they are happy, lose their number.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I agree with most of what others have said. I would be afraid that if you call them, they will have all sorts of little picky things they will want you to fix and you will never be done with them. The guy I often work with said he installed cabinets in a house and something like five years later they called and wanted him to fix something--like a door handle being loose or something that would not be something that was wrong with his original installation.
I did a custom painting for some people and they were so strange. Long story, but after getting the thing done to their specifications (wanted different colors here and there and a fallen flower petal to look "more lifelike--you know, like the one's on the flower") and in a shorter than I wanted time span so they could show it to a visiting relative, they called and complained that they could see where I'd used putty in the corners of the frame and what was I going to do about that? (I sent back a quarter of the money and sold them to use it to buy a new frame, knowing it would cost them the price of the whole painting to get it custom framed.)
Some people have made it their life's work to find small flaws to be upset about and no one will ever make anything to their strict standards.
Based on this comment....
Anyway, I see the wife a few times and get told they are happy as ever with the 'beautiful' kitchen, etc. Then daughter tells me they are considering hiring us to fix their roof and rebuild their back porch. I inquire later if they'd like to discuss this further and am told that they will not hire us as they are unhappy with the kitchen work.
First, who "exactly" did you get the "they will not hire us as they are unhappy with the kitchen work." comment from? Was it from the wife (even though she originally said she was happy)? Was it from the husband? Was it from your daughter? Daughter's friend? Neighbor down the street?
Personally, I would make contact with them, preferably in person. If something "is" wrong with the job, I would want to know. Both for fixing it if it was my fault, and 2nd for peace of mind if it wasn't. If it's something that you did wrong (doubt it), you could offer to make good on it. At least at that point you made a conscience effort to correct any mistakes on your part. If the problem was more of a "management" issue on their part and they're somehow blaming you....here is your opportunity to explain what happens when every homeowner wants to be the GC and do it half legit....half illegal (no permits, etc).
As far as future work is concerned, no way I'd take another job from them after seeing how the first job was run.
I would like to re-inforce what DanT said.
his Stat's and mine are virtually identical.
when we did 150 -200 projects a year------2 or 3 -people a year we were NOT going to make happy. I have semi-retired myself down to about 70 projects a year------and 1-2 people a year will not be satisfied.
when i was in the 150-200 project phase---- these unsatisfied people would RUIN my life--just make me miserable.- One day i was whining to a garage builder that I subbed in a lot of work from----(3rd generation family business)---the old man looked me right in the eye and said" Steve---you didn't think you were gonna be able to please everyone did you?"
that was a very important lesson old Tom taught me( he is WAAAAAY into his 70's and still going into work EVERY day----plus raising chickens at home)
I will try my best for everyone---but that ONE customer a year now who can not be satisfied------- I will just do my best, document everything and proceed with my life worry free-----let THEM be miserable!
BTW-- I just thought it interesting that DanT and I had the same stat's---maybe it's an industry standard, LOL.
Stephen
I would not take the customer's displeasure too seriously.
First, had there been a real issue, you would have heard of it before now - through their attorney, if nothing else.
They may be out of money. The may have decided not to do the work. They may have been counting on appreciation - which isn't in the market right now. It is even possible the "future work" was a teaser, invented only for the purpose of getting a lower price.
Should they ever call again, consider being "too busy" ... and suggest they try the shadiest, lousiest contractor you can think of.
Dont wanna sound like im picking on you but under bid them slightly to get the job??? Better to bid on what you know and not base it on anyones bid, In the long run you will be better off
Thanks all for your feedback. The 'rumor' was told to me by my daughter who was told by the HO's daughter (they are mutual friends). I had actually heard of the interest in the work from their daughter and attempted a follow-up with no success, no one answering phone. So I casually asked my daughter when she mentioned her friend, "Hey when are they around? I would like to go over and talk to them about fixing their roof that V-- mentioned." To which was replied, "Ma, V-- told me she asked her dad and he said he isn't happy with the kitchen cabinets and won't hire you guys for the roof or porch." So then my mind starts twirling.As for the cabinets, we needed the work at the time and it was quick cash. I didn't lose on it as we didn't stick out neck on product -- they did the purchasing, which of course caused headaches as we were shut out of the communication loop. You all are right to chastise me for low-balling and yes, I got the pain I deserved; nothing comes for free, we pay for every meal somehow. We did do a professional job on their kitchen even so, if a door fell off or a hinge broke, which is probably what its about, I have no feelings of guilt. The work we had to do to match up the new to the old was a challenge and we were proud of how we took it on and won. I only wish I got photos of the work after. Mother of the family is an executive and the breadwinner, husband stays home. He's seemingly harmless and friendly. He's nice on the eyes, runs around on a new Triumph Bonneville she bought him, but short any real talent to keep him busy or useful, so was a royal pain trying to get into our business everyday and constantly seeking man-approval from my work partner and attention from both of us.Upon reflection last night I also remembered that he was a bit sore that wife insisted that she hire us to do the cabinets and not him. Apparently he wanted to take on the job himself and she said no-go. I'm sure that in his position he feels pretty jealous of people who get out and do something with themselves. For whatever reason, he's preferred to spend his life doing a lot of nothing, so I guess we're getting the brunt of his jealousy, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's pushing wifey to give him the reins on the roof and porch rebuild.I always had the feeling that she lets him handle the day to day minor things at home so she can concentrate on her job, which takes her away all week. She's only home on weekends. She even controls the purse so tight that when we were working there, he had to call her and beg for a deposit into his account to buy a gallon of paint or something stupid. So, I guess I'll run into her (which I will as she's close by and the weather's warming up) and talk to her, see what's up, put out a good hand to fix anything that might have to do with us, get a chance to snap some shots and be done with them. Writing all this about them, I think I should be laughing at them actually.Thanks for the input, I'd go insane if it wasn't for the discussions in here.
Unless you can find a way to make an emasculated wimp feel like a real man, you need to stay far faar away from that household.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Unless you can find a way to make an emasculated wimp feel like a real man, you need to stay far faar away from that household."Nope, I'm not in that business, I will definitely learn from it and move on.
I would'nt get my shorts twisted over some hear-say from a couple of kids. I would however make a courtesy call to the client when thae are BOTH there and make no mention of what I heard.
I doubt there is any problem with hinges or doors sticking, etc. It all comes down to his jealousy which leads to his bitterness towards you. I'm sure whe you bump into the wife, she'll have very nice things to say and is happy with your work. Sound like if you walked on water the husband would find fault with you. When they get divorced, you can take the wife as a customer but for now I would stay clear also.
--- Anyway, I see the wife a few times and get told they are happy as ever with the 'beautiful' kitchen, etc. Then daughter tells me they are considering hiring us to fix their roof and rebuild their back porch. I inquire later if they'd like to discuss this further and am told that they will not hire us as they are unhappy with the kitchen work. ---"Ma, V-- told me she asked her dad and he said he isn't happy with the kitchen cabinets and won't hire you guys for the roof or porch."OK, that's what I thought.The wife is happy with the kitchen. The husband "isn't happy" that the wife had someone else do it. I love my fiance dearly, but he's got a little of that in him, too. He was convinced that the plumbers were ripping me off and that he could have done just as good a job as they did for a lot less money. He even had me disappointed with the plumbers for a while, because of issues completely unrelated to workmanship, but the fact is, my fiance could *not* have done just as good a job and for a lot less money, and I know it. The wife in your story knows it, too.Rebeccah
One other option worth mentioning, if it hasn't been already, is offering T&M to people who show signs of wanting day to day control over everything.
Your predicament reminds me of a similar time in my life, when work was hard to find. A businessman from NYC bought an old farmhouse on a hundred acres near my home, a place which needed many hours of patient, skilled work to renovate. He'd been previously advised to demo the old place but he saw a house which could be saved inexpensively by nickle and dime-ing the job.
Previous experiences with similar old places and like-minded businessmen had taught me that there were sure to be many unforseeable problems so I suggested to him that he would have more control over the job and it's budget if I worked for him by the hour and he paid for the materials directly. We each happily agreed to those terms. In the end it worked quite well for me. I got prevailing rate and stayed busy for many months, right down the road from home. He got quality work and the level of control which felt comfortable to him.
As we moved through the project it became increasingly clear to him that what he was saving in materials costs wasn't paying for the extra labor involved in renovating the old place, not in comparison with building new. But he'd been making all the decisions about each phase of work on his own so he had no one to blame but himself.
Edited 4/2/2007 8:09 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
My take is that you're overthinking someone else's problem. It's not clear from your writing who is feeding you the info that the customer is dissatisfied, but it doesn't appear to be the wife. If you did a good job, you know it, and if they are complaining, that's just their nature and you can't fix that part of the equation, so why beat yourself up?
I'm all for going out of my way to serve the customer, but you sound like you got way into the weeds accommodating them, and got taken for granted. The only fault of yours i see is that you accepted a lower standard (wavy ceiling) bec of the husband's pressures. This wouldn't be acceptable to me and i wouldn't work for people who didn't expect the best from me.
I had a lady call me one time and spend the first 15 minutes of the phone call complaining about the previous contractor who she had just fired, and hoe she was going to sue him for all her money because he screwed the job up and didn't do it the way she told him to.
I don't "suffer" fools for very long, but for some reason , she was amusing me, and I hung on a bit longer than usual.
He was this and he was that, and he didn't know what he was doing , and it took longer than it should have.
Blah, de blah, de blah.
And then she said.................
Can you come and fix it, it has to be done in 2 weeks tops.
Ahhhhhhhhh, sorry sweetheart, I'm busy. Nope, don't know anybody I can recommend.
Like an earlier poster said, don't underbid on purpose, and don't ;et them think you need the job.
And to answer your question......I would make an attempt at a face to face meeting, what's the problem, if it's my fault I'll fix it, if it's not, I'll tell you what I think.
And then move on, don't look back.
Rod
i'm sure if you enjoy pain you could find someone to just slap you....
never complain... never explain.... you are in a no win situation... avoid future contact...
people these people know have to know they are nuts and having this information i'm sure they put little stock in anything they say...
p
Always pass on a known headache! Home owner with poor knowledge and a want to get in the way.
Leave them be. Some customer will not let you get done or make them happy!
As the story began to unfold I guessed the ending and was pretty close. When clients are involved in the process and don’t know what they don’t know, everything becomes a chore, the end result doesn’t turn out well, and there you are hung out to dry.
The best advice is to learn from it, because the odds are high that it will happen again if a similar situation comes up a few times. It’s not wrong to take those jobs, but realize the clients are in over their heads and set boundaries that you are comfortable with. From day one separate the problems of others from your own and don’t let the two intermingle or the odds go up significantly that you will be the scapegoat in the end. It’s very hard to tell clients no, but corrections should happen as soon after an infraction as possible.
We’ve been in a string of odd building situations the past couple of years and at times it’s taken everything we have to keep sane, so I’m not one to say you should pass on everything except the straight forward jobs.
In fact the most difficult times have pressed me to the point that deep down inside I’ve finally been able to accept that difficult clients’ actions just can’t be taken personally. It’s been like a cloud lifted since that point and nights are much less sleepless and I’m better at dealing with the issues without negative emotions getting in the way.
Best of luck and hang in there!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
You can't change people, but you can marginalize them.
I inquire later if they'd like to discuss this further and am told that they will not hire us as they are unhappy with the kitchen work.
count your blessings - you would be a fool to go back and do more work for these people
"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
There is nothing about those clients that is desirable from a contractor's point of view. Let some other poor soul deal with them.
They will badmouth you forever. The more work you do, the more ammo they have to badmouth you.
blue
"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Cut and run. People like that hurt your reputation. You bend over backwards to "craft" a fine project, all the while compensating for thier poor planning as they play at being the G.C. They don't respect the time and effort it takes to detail a project properly and end up blaming you through their own ignorance. Why continue to educate these people, give them the bennifit of your knowledge and experience, while they're slaggin' you on the side.
The whole deal's a losing proposition.
nuff said, I'm getting riled up, good, honest work should be reconized.