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balloon frame question

moc | Posted in Construction Techniques on December 4, 2006 07:55am

            I have to remove an exterior wall and replace it with a beam to open up a room for an addition that I am doing on a 2 story Colonial. I have done the many times, however never on a house that was balloon framed. Is the procedure the same?

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  1. mcf | Dec 04, 2006 08:06pm | #1

    What direction are the floor joists running relative to the wall you are removing?

    1. moc | Dec 04, 2006 08:41pm | #2

      Perpendicular

      1. moc | Dec 05, 2006 06:28pm | #3

        The more I think about it, it should be easier because I won't have to cut the second floor out of the way to make room for the beam. Does that sound correct? Do I still build the temporary suppport it the same way as if it was not balloon framed? With a temporary wall on the inside and diagnal supports nailed to a leader board that spans the top half of the studs that will remain for the second floor wall.

        1. Geoffrey | Dec 06, 2006 11:21am | #4

          moc,

          how tall is the R.O. ? , and how wide?  What's your ceiling height? What size header are you installing (height)?, your carrying a second floor AND a roof load.  You probably want to put a second temp wall on the second floor directly over the 1st floor wall (or as close as possible). Ballon frames had the floor joists nailed to the side of the studs, or a ribbon (or band joist) was nailed to the face of the studs or let into the studs, then the joists were set on top of the ribbon/band and nailed beside the studs. Either way there's not a whole lot of support left when you start lifting the ceiling joists with the temp wall and then start cutting the wall studs out, the whole mess is now supported only by the nails between the joist and stud, hence the need for the 2nd floor temp wall, and possibly some outside shoring as well depending on the opening size.

                                           Geoff    

                                                               

          1. moc | Dec 06, 2006 04:13pm | #5

            The header is 16.5' long. 8' ceilings. The beam will be recease into the cealing. I have not had the size of the header engineered yet. I was hoping that the diagnal bracing on the outside would support the second floor wall and roof load. you don't think that would be sufficent?

             

          2. averagejoe | Dec 06, 2006 04:34pm | #6

            keep it coming boys, I've got to do the same thing in a couple weeks, and I was planning to do the same as you...inside temp wall and outside diagonal bracing (about 10 degrees)to a header lag bolted to the outside of the remaining wall studs.

          3. moc | Dec 06, 2006 06:20pm | #7

            I'm thinking the balloon framing will make it easier to conceal the beam in the cealing. I will not have to cut the second story floor joist out of the way.

          4. Geoffrey | Dec 07, 2006 06:16am | #12

            moc

            why won't you have to cut the second story floor joists out of the way??

                                                                                                             Geoff

          5. waffledthumb | Dec 07, 2006 08:49am | #13

            You are intending on placing the header beam in the same vertical plain as the ballon studs(so as to not mess with the joists)? You then intend on hanging the joists from the header beam, correct? You would definatly want the 2nd story temp wall. But, crap I'm just a rookie what do I know.

          6. moc | Dec 07, 2006 04:30pm | #14

            In balloon framing the second floor is attached to the walls. As opposed to the wall sitting  on the floor in platform framing. To recess a header into a cealing in platform framing you have to cut out the part of the joist to make room for the header. Sinse the floor joist in balloon flraming only extend to the interier side of the wall, there will aready be room for the header. I agree with you about the engineer, I do expect it to be a large I-beam header . I just thought the diaganl bracing would be enough support. (They will still be living there and I  wanted to interupt thier living space as little) I will do both the temparary walls  on both floors and the diagnal bracing.

            I do understand how balloon framing works, I have done many renovations in balloon framed houses. I have done this many times in platform framing. Other than changing how you  support the exsisting structure, is there much different?  Thank you for your input.

          7. DoRight | Dec 07, 2006 10:37pm | #16

            Even with a second story temp wall you may still have issues with the roof.  a temp wall supporting ceiling joists and not the rafters is a disaster in the waiting.

            So on what do teh rafters sit?

          8. moc | Dec 07, 2006 07:29pm | #15

            Geoffrey,

            When his proceedure is done on platform framing, and the second floor floor joist are cut back to make room for the header, the only thing holding up that second floor wall is the diagnal bracing. Right? Why does this work on platform framing but not in Balloon framing.

            I'm having a hard time explaning what I'm trying say. Sorry if it is confusing. I'm just trying to understand it all. Thanks again

             

            Mike

          9. Geoffrey | Dec 07, 2006 06:14am | #11

            moc,

                   the short answer is no. I'm not sure what you're meaning when you say "diagonal bracing". I think you mean braces placed some distance from the house, say 6' and then angled back toward the house and fastened to a ledger above the 1st fl. ceiling (or higher) much as averagejoe mentions, if so, then you are on the right track, BUT you need a temp wall on the second floor as well, this new header will still have to be cut into the ceiling joists. Go back and make sure you understand the structural details I explained in my prior post. You need to support the studs which are carrying the 2nd fl. and roof loads back to the foundation. By placing this header you will need to cut the ceiling joists to install it then you will need to place joist hangers on its face to hang the ceiling joists from! I think you need to find some one who is more familiar with ballon framing than you are currently in order to avert some pontential disasters. The structural details of balloon framing are quite different from platform framing!! I think you will be in for quite a surprise when you get the engineering details of the header reqired to support the loads across such a large opening. So get the engineer in first, then go about figuring how to install  the new header, and then get some more help for the install!!

                                                                                                    Geoff

          10. jrnbj | Dec 08, 2006 08:32am | #17

            Beg to differ, it ain't that different, re load paths....I don't see that much difference in terms of temporary support necessary btwn balloon & platform construction...

          11. mcf | Dec 12, 2006 07:52pm | #18

            I have a question...

            What if the second floor joists run perpendicular to the roof joists?

            This is how my house is built. The floor joists run the length of the house while the roof joists run front to rear. How do you temporarily brace the roof when the support wall will effectively rest on a single floor joist?

        2. DoRight | Dec 06, 2006 08:11pm | #8

          In balloon framing if you may support the floor (temporary wall)  as you say but then the second floor and roof will have no support as they are carried by the studs all the way to the foundation.  You will likely need a second support wall upstairs to carry the roof.  And then even more than that.

          1. moc | Dec 06, 2006 08:48pm | #9

            Wouldn't the diagnal supports on the out side provide enough support for the second story and the roof?

          2. DoRight | Dec 06, 2006 11:32pm | #10

            What diagonal supports?

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