I am a german carpenter with a little outfit of six very skilled co-workers. German economy has been in a slump for a while now – plus we get the influx of cheap labor from the east (Poland…). So times get harder…and the HO and the architects gang up on the contractors. After bidding at a job, with the competition – there always is a session of price bargaining.
With many other colleagues struggling, there always seems to be a “wild” one. Say that 3 guys offer the job for 50.000 (take or leave 3000-5000) this guy estimates at 38.000,-. I know the man is doing it below cost because he is nearly bancrupt…just to show his bank, creditors a job contract.
Then they get to me…Here´s the cheapest offer – we would love to do the job with you – but would you settle for the smallest price. Of course it´s a No-go.
I always tell them, that if I had more than a 3% margin to bargain I would have been cheating them in the first place. In comes the next guy…settles for 25% less. I always enjoy when they call me for straightening out the defects, or an evaluation of the job. Never do…call an inspector, is my advice.
I was just wondering if that is the same in the U.S.? I calculate, bid…and that´s that (max. 3-5% less to close – but bound to a better paying schedule like 33% down, 33% at beginning of work 33% at finish). It is getting better with the economy, but these rites probably stay on.
Of course: A person that does not bargain…is doubtful too. They end up paying not at …all-lawyertime. Cash flow impeded, I sometimes spend friday afternoons on the mobile consoling the bank and suppliers – monday morning the customers friendly asking if the bill (and when) is going to e paid. Downtime and just a headache.
Otherwise I love my trade and am without complains.
Mathias
Replies
I suppose you will find that low balling and dealing with it know no boundaries. I am lucky to seldom have to competitively bid. My only chore is to try to hold my price in with the customer's budget range. On occasion that is much in the same as you talk about.
So speaking of German carpenters, how have you been? Feel like attending a Breaktime Fest in August here in the states?
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I wish I could. The last time in your country was four years ago, when I went with my little son alone to visit my host-father Carl McKenzie who had retired to Arizona. We had a blasting time in February...Maybe next year - when I´m rich. But if life ever rings you to Hamburg, give me a call. I´ll provide some barbecue and beer at the workshop.
Mathias
You can count on the visit if I ever venture that far east again and likewise if ever over here, slide on by.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
cool web site.
Got Leiderhosen? http://www.raulfcarpenters.com/Bilder/04-ra.jpg
Sorry about the spelling, I don't know how to get an Umlaut with an american keyboard.
Edited 5/12/2005 11:54 am ET by dustinf
That's not lederhosen ;)
Trust me, I was sent to public school in NY wearing lederhosen, that's how I learned to fight well ;)
Stop showing off. :-) DanT
learned to fight well?If you had taken the lead outten your hose, you kuda run instead! LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You try to run with lederhosen on, Oracle ;)
(aka Birthday Boy)
Hi dustinf, no. These vest and the pants are the traditional carpenters workclothes here in Germany. they´re made of thick black corduroy. The pants have heavy bell-bottoms. I´ve been on the "Wanderschaft" as a young guild-carp, on tour for three years around the world. That is what you wear then.
Mathias
"These vest and the pants are the traditional carpenters workclothes here in Germany. they´re made of thick black corduroy. The pants have heavy bell-bottoms."
Sound's like a rather sweaty tradition.
In Germany don't students get to choose between vocational training, or college preparation courses for their last 2 years of high-school?
Sweaty it is - that is why now I wear Carhartt browns. Does anyone know a good Internet Retail adress for Carhartt?
About the german schooling system I could go on and on...and will if you want - but anothertime. I got to know the US system too - senior high school year, Gloucester High School, Class of ´78 - and enjoyed it.
Mathias aka Matt http://www.raulfcarpenters.com
In short. Yes! Taht is a standard procedure, but many unscrupulous general contractors go even farther. They got the rediculous bid price, then stall paying the subcontractor for many months until he finally accepts 50 cents to 70 cents on the dollar for the balance they own him cause he's on teh verge of going broke.
Sleazy tactics in a global disease. And all these same sleaze balls say the same thing: "It's nothing personal. It's just business."
Or they lowball to get in, then A) Cry to the homeowner for more money (and often get it!) or B) Create/inflate "extras" to make up for the balance.
Huck, I forgot about that also. Done here in south Florida is to bid as the plans say but say nothing about plan errors and ambiguous plan aspects, then hit the owner up with Change Order after Change Order. One commercial GC told me that they sell the jobs at cost or below, and make their profit in the Change Orders and by screwing the subs as I mentioned in my earlier post.Of course, the owner of the property is a willing part of the scam since they base the "award" strictly on who is the cheapest bid. Imagine if we hired surgeons, dentists or CPAs on that basis. These owners remind me of the teenage girls who dress like hookers, have mouths like truckers and then get all Aghast! when some guy grabs their rear end.
We call it get on the boat price". And get on every boat. Worry about finishing (beginning) the job(s) later...
Mathias
Thank you for your words.
I thought as much, but guessed that in a good economy as yours it would be better.
Edited 5/12/2005 2:23 pm ET by PaulB
Edited 5/12/2005 2:51 pm ET by PaulB
Edited 5/12/2005 2:55 pm ET by PaulB
The place (Altenwerder) has been turned upside down, inside out. If you´d like more info I could do do some research. Your German is great. Many apprentices don´t spell or write any better these days.
Mathias
Very kind of you Mathias... I love the sound of German, wish I had the chance to speak it more. My father is still in touch with friends and family in Altenwerder. As a matter of fact, his father's house on the shipyard was only torn down recently. There was a big fuss over it as apparently it was historical. My father had tried to have the front door, a huge teak monster, sent here to have made into furniture as a keepsake but it just wasn't practical.
The work on your site is gorgeous, it's depressing to think that there aren't enough people that appreciate it and are willing to pay a premium for that quality. Ich verstehe, daß in Deutschland es eine lange lehre ("apprenticeship?") gibt, die für irgendwelche des Handels erfordert wird. Wenn so, denke ich, daß viele Leute hier interessiert sein würden an über die zu hören (mindestens ich )
Tschuss!
Well there are enough rich people in Hamburg...they just suppose that nobody ever got rich from spending. We are like the Yankees...as far as I got to know the customers in Boston and NYC. If there is a demand for more info/historical backgrund on the basics of the German vocational training system and the traditions of the "Wanderschaft"...maybe I´ll post something (if enough guys beg me `-)).
Mathias
http://www.raulfcarpenters.com
Sorry, that was actually kind of rude of me. I asked Mathias in German, about the German apprenticeship requirements which, as I understand them, are extremely demanding. I've read in a number of places that to work in any of the skilled trades requires a long, exhaustive program that tries to ensure a minimum of hacks.
That's the way it was around here too, a long, long, time ago. My Dad always said, you don't learn your trade from one Master; took at least three. It still makes a bunch of sense.The difference is that today, the "kids" know everything. Who needs apprenticeship?
Welcome to Break Time. It is rare that we get to see the works of our European friends.
I am afraid that your English is far superior to mine. If it wasn't for the spell check and my dictionary you wouldn't be able to read this at all.
I gather by your gallery that you specialize in wood flooring. Beautiful work. If you get a chance, show us how you do some of it, we would love to see it.
You also have a nice collection of hand tools. Do you use them in your work or are they for show on your web site? (costumers can relate to those tools being of the trades) If you have power tools tell us about them.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Thank you.
Yes, I use the tools regularly, because the antique (salvaged) material needs a lot of hand-tooling to be fitted right.
Machines: Shop - Altendorf Table saw 18", sliding side table, fully automated tilt and rise (the best in the world...methinks)
http://www.altendorf.de/00home/index.php?nvg_id=020101&lng=en&type=site
Combination planer/thicknesser 19" SCM (Italian)
Bandsaw, German 31" Wheels, Tilting table
All German shop machines run on 380 Volt, 3-Phase electricity
Outside dust collection
Handtools: All FESTOOOL, with some odd ones, I love the Kreg-Jig - and am the only guy around here thart has one. They (Kreg) don´t even have a german supplier...
I am in the process (bidding) for a large job (1.200 sq/m) of antique oak flooring - and will provide pictures in the gallery. My digital camera was stolen though, on the worksite, but if I get that job I can buy me a couple.
Mathias aka Matt
http://www.raulfcarpenters.com
Edited 5/14/2005 8:59 am ET by Mathias
Thanks for the link.
That table saw is something else. How do they keep a blade that big from wabbling?
1,200 sq meters of floor will keep you busy for a few months and another few months. I know how hard it is to keep your moral up on a large job like that. But when it is all finished and you walk out the door for that last time with a smile on your face and a glow in your heart you know that you have done a great job again.
I hope that you win the bid.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
No German ego in that post, is there? LOLI am of the Alsace-Lorraine. Meiller and Nichter
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
that's Matt...
you know Matt will be Matt..
Just a solid carpenter ego - I am not proud nor ashamed of my nationality. Beautiful place and great wines asnd food the Alsace-Lorraine. Now, historically is that german ...or french?
Mathias aka Matt
"Now, historically is that german ...or french?"Why of course it is german
french
german
french
german;)One of my far back ancestors served close to Napolean on his staff. so I guess it was French at that time...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Comens to america ee puht youren skilleuns to-eh workuhns.
Americamens hom-ens bult-eens es boominck!
Dont-ens for-get-ens to-uh bringuns muchens germans beer.
Unt brahtwurst too!
Ya?
One of my co-workers just left for America, he´s an Italian and just hit San Francisco Bay Area last week. He grew up in America - and I severely miss my best man and friend. He just makes more inthe US.
Great carpenter, finisher and cabinet-maker. The best...
Mathias
Hey Mathias - Never made it to Hamburg, but I spent time in Germany in the Army. I was in Kahrlsruhe, Grafenwohr, and Vilsek while I was over there back in the early 1980s. Sure did like Germany and the German people. I'd enjoy visiting over there again if I had the chance.Don't really have anything intelligent to add to the conversation. But I hope things pick up for ya.
I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, natural, wholesome things that money can buy.