An old newcomer here. My son wants to divy up his basement with some new walls. What is the best present day method of fastening the sill plates (piece on which the studs stand) to a concrete floor?
I’ve used hardened masonry nails in the distant past but found that they rusted out after ten or fifteen years. I’d like to avoid buying any costly tools but I certainly would consider renting something appropriate.
Suggestions please?
Respectfully, Pete
Replies
Blue Tapcons or split drive anchors. Either will require the use of a rotohammer.
Nails rusted out after 10-15 years? Avoid flooding the basement. :o)
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Good ol' low-velocity powder actuated gun.
I think they're about $45 IIRC. Another $15-$20 for a box of charges and some 3" nails. Stick the nail in, stick the charge in, give it a good whack...fire in the hole!
Paul
Code in my locale says any sill on concrete needs to be treated lumber. Treated lumber rots steel if it's damp at all. I used to use powder fasteners 'cause they're quick & easy but, having seen what treated lumber can do to nails, I now use tapcons, with a 5/16" pex sleeve in the hole to keep it from contacting the treated wood.
Probably overkill, but it's easy, so I do it.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
Mike
I think that preasure treated formula was 2 versions ago, the new stuff is fastener friendly.
Hmm . . . not sure what new stuff you refer to. Around here, it's all ACQ, and that stuff definately eats fasteners.
Recommendations here: http://www.ufpi.com/literature/acqfastener-216.pdf
That said, if the slab is truely dry, PAFs are fine. Many, of not most, older slabs lack proper moisture barriers tho', so they aren't all that dry -- it's the user's call as far as that goes.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
i just use regular framing lumber, shot to the concrete with a powder actuated fastener, with sill gasket between the wood and concrete.
Blue Tapcons and shot nails will rust out just as fast as a cut nail if you have moisture present. Use PT plates and screw them down with stainless concrete screws.
Construction adhesive, with fastener of choice to clamp the plate until it dries.
I'm probably posting too late, but I'd use Powers brand mushroom head spikes. They're made out of stainless steel. You predrill a hole with a hammer drill, and then pound them in with a hammer. Here's a link:
http://www.powers.com/product_05548.html
-T
I use pressure treated lumber and blue tapcons here.
Be sure to get the right size masonry bit to the size of
tapcon you select. I have an old craftsman 19.2 that has a hammer setting on it. It works great!
Thanks guys! I'm almost overwhelmed by the response. Every suggestion is a good solution. All I have to do is decide, right?
I agree with treated lumber for sills and I'll go that way.
I agree with using stainless fasteners, damp conditions or not - and this basement has a dehumidifier running 24/7 - but I don't think they make (or even can make) stainless hard enough to be a masonry nail. I know some may argue but the common 300 and 400 series stainless steels I know are tough but not hard. As for "nail" note my next sentence:
Because of its simplicity I like best of all the construction adhesive, *IF* it won't argue with (have some incompatibility with) the treated lumber or a problem with dampness. I'll look into those.
If that doesn't work out I may go with powder driven stuff and maybe a sill gasket. I don't know how thick (or thin) this slab is and I am hesitant to try much drilling. Besides, I don't have a hammer drill although I suppose I could rent one.
This job is a total of 29 feet of basement walls so I am hesitant to have to buy into a lot of tool. But overall each and every one of you has added to my understanding. I can't ask for more than that.
Thank you all again,
Pete
Just a few thoughts on this: 1) use a stainless steel nail AND a piece of "form wire" in each hole. I used to drive "double headed" spikes and form wire to "fix" plates in place. The wire actually "locks" the nail into the concrete. 2) Hammer drill are nice and quick (and $$$) but a regular corded drill and a shop vac will also do the job. Tap-cons sold by the box will have a "bit" to drive them home AND a drill bit of the correct size and length. 3) Thin floor slabs and powder guns DO NOT MIX. You will wind up cracking the slab. Most older floors are about 3" to 3-1/2" thick, if that. If, when drilling the holes, you feel it "punch through" , shoot some sealer down the hole along with the fastener of your choice. Even with PT sill plates, I'd still put down the foam sill sealer. Just a few thoughts.
Construction adhesive by itself won't do you much good. Construction adhesive fails more often than almost any other glue manufactured. The pins that were driven in the plates to "temporarily" hold the plates down while the glue dries is actually what holds the plates down over the long haul.
PAFs work just fine, and if your floor is 3inch thick or thicker, it will hold OK with no problems. Tapcons are OK but they don't always grab, and drilling holes thru the plates and into the concrete causes the plates to shift...so shooting the plates down first with a few PAF's is still a good move if you plan to go the Tapcon route.
I usually buy my PAF's from Hilti. The fasteners are stainless, or at least I thought they were...I've never seen rust on any pin, and I've used them plenty on outside jobs when pinning down concrete forms to existing concrete. I honestly don't think you will have a corrosion problem if you use them.
A few wedge bolts ( also called "quick bolts"...they have a sleeve that expands when you tighten down the nut) or even "hit" anchors ( also called pin anchors...they have a lead sleeve that expands when you drive the pin by hitting it with your hammer) will also work in your situation. Wedge bolts are very heavy duty...your wall will not budge at all if utilized.
The argument about treated lumber rotting away certain fasteners seems to be more ficticious than real. I've read about this many times in Fine Homebuilding and other mags and reported this to my fellow carpenters at the shop. I told them how I learned that the new stuff was supposed to be even more corrosive. Six (6) months passed, and one of my fellow carpenters brought in a treated 2X4 that he had left outside on a window sill. The board had been rained on, snowed on, and sunned many times. The fasteners were regular 16d nails, 8d nails, exterior grade dryway screws, and interior, black anodized drywall screws. We cut the 2x in half to expose the fastener shanks. All, I repeat all fasteners, looked brand new. The exposed heads had some minor rust patina, but none were what I would call badly corroded. Sooo, I wonder if these new fastener guidelines are more myth than fiction? I use the double coated zinc hardware and adhere to using stainless, but still I wonder?
If your basement remodeling involves wall partitions rather than load bearing walls, you may be better off shooting down metal channel plates. Use (termite barrier)foam wrap between the floor and the metal plates. You only need short length PAF's; or use short length hit anchors...both work well.
With the metal channel plates in place, you cut and place a stud in the channel at each end. Screw the bottom of the stud into the channel's flange using drywall screws. Cut another channel to represent the top plate. Place this channel on top of the 2 corner studs. Plumb the first corner stud and attach to top plate flange via screws. Do the same at the other end. Then attach top plate to existing ceiling joist framing or prepared blocking. Now you can cut all your studs to length and place accordingly as "infill". Every stud does not have to be cut to the exact length in order to work. Just make sure the studs are long enough so that a drywall screw will fasten the stud to the existing flange. A wall built in this fashion goes up very fast and is easy to fabricate around existing obstructions.
You don't have to worry about needing a bunch of floor space to fabricate your walls, nor worry about obstructions that you normally would face when having to lift a regular framed wall into postion.
I've used this method several times with great success. A variant of this method would be to shoot down wood bottom plates first, then come back and install the metal channels overtop.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Davo