Hello again
I’m getting ready to gut bathroom #3 in our house, the master bathroom. We’ve got a leaky skylight, and a mold problem in the shower, almost certainly helped along by an old Broan fan about 8 feet away from the shower opening. It’s noisy, and doesn’t seem to have enough cfm to handle the bathroom, which is 15′ X 17′. The only area I was hoping to not have to touch is the ceiling drywall. It’s in great shape, except where the skylight is leaking. I have attic access directly above.
The question: Can I replace the motor/guts of this Broan fan to increase it’s capabilities?? Also, I was thinking about the posibility of a new fan installed, perhaps in the attic, with 2 openings in the bathroom/ one by the toilet, and one by the shower opening to help remove moisture. What are my options, and where can you guys point me to find what I need.
You all have been great answering my questions during the “This old house project from hell!” for the last few years.
Jeff
Replies
Generally a higher-capacity fan will have a larger, and especially deeper, housing. (Deeper helps reduce noise, in addition to making room for a larger fan.) But if you have access from above, replacing the fan housing is not difficult. I've even done it from below, using "orthoscopic surgery".
Alternatively you can get a duct-mounted fan like one of the Fantech models ( http://www.fantech.net/bathroom.htm ) and have multiple intakes (plus much quieter operation).
Likely the existing fan is the code minimum which is 50 cfm around here. I can say from experience that even a slight increase in capacity (from 50 to 75) can make a world of difference. In your case, with a relatively large bath, you should probably look at 150-200 cfm.
Thanks for the reply. I'll check out fantech. I checked out fans today, and saw that Broan had a 280 cfm unit for showers at the big box. I turned it on, and my 12" jointer is quieter. I definately want to try and find something much quieter, while accomplishing the mission of getting the moisture out of the room.
Jeff
Jeff-
If the big box doesn't have them, go to a plumbing or electrical supplier and spend the few more bucks for a "low-sone" fan. I find that the old loud ones tend not to be used. We have used both Broan and Panasonic. Both are very quiet (barely audible). If you're taking the time for the install, it's worth a few more bucks for the better product.
Johnny
If you have a leaking skylight, and you need a new vent fan, you might want to reconsider and tear off the existing ceiling. It is pretty easy to pick vent fans, since there is a universal measure for noise (called "sones") attached to each. A few years back, Panasonic came to this country with a line of fans that were powerful and astonishingly quiet. I think they at least started to eat Broan's lunch, and I would imagine they are coming out with their own line of quiet fans. Here's a randomly selected site that will give you a run down on the Panasonics:http://tinyurl.com/y9z3tcFantechs are good too, especially if you have multiple vent fans and have access to an attic location where the main motor can be located.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Just last weekend I installed the Panasonic Whisper Ceiling 110 CFM in a bathroom that is about 8x10 (but with quite a few cubic feet of cabinet). It is remarkably quiet, and very efficient. I have a long-haired teenage daughter who takes 25-minute showers in that bathroom. Formerly, not only would the mirror steam up, but condensation would roll down the painted walls, marking them. Her first shower with the new fan didn't even steam the mirror. Got it online for about $110.00 including freight. If you have a pro discount somewhere, you might do better. I set it up with the main lights on a 2-pole SensorSwitch. They are very good moisture rated prox detectors, also rated for fan motor inrush current. You can set each pole for a separate time delay, so the lights go off soon, and the fan goes off 20 minutes after the person leaves the bathroom. That solves the other fan problem -- leaving it on long enough, but not too long, to get the humidity out of the room. It takes about 20 minutes or so after the shower is over.
When I install vent fans, I always try to set them up on a timer switch, but it sounds like your system is working fine.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
In effect, the SensorSwitch IS a timer switch, except is also goes on automatically. We have found that people often do not turn on fans when they enter bathrooms, and even if they do, the often turn them off when they leave -- which is too soon. WIth my set up, they do nothing. It goes on when they go in, and goes off 20 minutes after they leave. The lights go off sooner. I also ran the output through a slide dimmer so the light level is adjustible
I suppose one could argue that when the shower is not used -- especially, say, when someone only urinates, the 20 minutes of fan is overkill that will pump out conditioned air -- hot or cold. That is doubtless true although this is the best compromise I could find.
I must admit I don't know anything about sensor switches, but as you describe it, I think they might be handy in many installations. Do you have a link where I could read up on them?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Many manufacturers have proximity detecting switches, and as with anything else, the better ones are more expensive. I don't know the ins and outs of that market well enough to advise on quality and features. However, it is true that some models are not rated for fan motors, and some are not humidity sealed.
I have the normal Leviton brand proximity switches at a few points in the house where I want light switching to be automatic (got sick of entering a dark room, and also of finding all the lights on every night). They do a good job of turning the lights on, and can be set to turn them off again a set time after the room has been left vacant.
For this bathroom application, I needed a switch that was fan-rated and sealed against extremes in humidity, The SensorSwitch brand switch I bought is both. You can get them in single pole or two pole, and there are many flavors depending on your need. I got the 2-pole, so I can control the fan and light off one sensor (most prox switches use infrared and if you use more than one, especially with mirrors, they can fool each other).
You can get them with sound detection as well as infrared, for applications where people might be out of sight of the IR sensor but still in the room. In fact, as I said, there are many varieties. Of course, except for the bathroom-specific applications of the one I chose, there are competing brands that offer good features as well. However, this one was the only one I could find that fit well into a home decor and did what I needed it to do.
Here is a link to product listing. I bought the WSD 2-P (they run between $55 and $70 depending on where you shop, maybe better with a pro discount):
http://www.sensorswitch.com/OnlineCatalog.aspx
Edited 11/16/2006 8:15 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
Better application would be humidity sensor.That runs it only as long as the humidity needs clearing.Then you could also wire it in parrallel with a 2 pole light switch so that it runs when the lights are on for a fart fan.
Yes, I agree, however, couldn't find one that met my needs at the right price, and this switch does most of what I want. Fans with built-in humidity sensors are also available, but as I rcall, the pricing was pretty steep.
Doubtless someone out there will now tell me about a humidity sensor for $30 that fits into a standard light switch box. But, I would still need to fork out for the light sensor as I wanted them automatically controlled, too. However, I have more bathrooms to upgrade, and so am all ears for good ideas.
Here is a different item. It is a light switch with a separate adjustable time delay for the fan.http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/39_766_134EFI has a humistat control, but is kind of kludgy.But here is one that with $6 meets your requirments.http://www.rewci.com/huusfordecoc.htmlHonneywell makes one, but it is much more expensive.http://www.nextag.com/Honeywell-H46C1166-Dehumidistat-88515317/prices-html
Thanks, Bill. I knew about the EFI switch, but it lacks the auto on and off features I wanted for the lighting. The $36 humidity sensor has potential as a part of an overall solution. I'll give that some thought.
The leaking skylight is in an area of the bathroom over the tub, which has a vaulted ceiling. I'm removing all the drywall in THAT area, as the new skylight is going to be slightly smaller in width, and I'll need to put a few new rafters in to frame it. The flat part of the roof meets the vaulted area right where the shower door is, so I'll probably locate an additional vent for the fan there, and have two grills venting out of the bathroom, instead of just one.
Jeff
Just put that fan deep in the attic, and run insulated duct back to the vent hole. Will be quiet then!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I really doubt if trying to replace the guts of your existing fan would be worth the hassle. With a bathroom that big, I think I would look at two (quieter) fans or one of the remote fans with one of the inlets near the shower.
Your ceiling may look ok right now, bu if you have a leaky skylight, you may find that there's water damage behind the drywall. I've seen bathroom ceilings that were almost gone except for a few coats of paint. - lol
Dave
After help from this forum, I've decided to do exactly what you suggested. I'm getting the 230cfm fantech, and locating it in the attic far enough away to keep it quiet. I'm installing two new vents; one by the toilet, and one at the door for the shower.
The skylight is at the far end of the bathroom, located over the tub in a vaulted ceiling. I'll be completely reworking that ceiling, as the existing bad skylight is 63" wide, and the new one will be 48" wide. All of the water damage has been contained in that area, and inside the adjacent wall, so I'll be redoing the rafters, drywall, and insulation in that area.
A friend of mine is a very reputable roofer in our area, who also co-incidentally needs some sidewalk repair work at his shop. We've decided to trade the installation of the new skylight at his end for a mudjacking job for his sidewalk on my end, so that couldn't have worked out better. This way, I'll know the flashing kit and roof will be installed by a pro for no further issues.
One other problem I discovered is that the idiotic contractor who worked on my home for the previous owner made many, many, many, etc........... shortcut mistakes. He never vented the existing fan to the outside. He simply ran it into the attic. When I install the new fan, a fantech, can I connect it to the existing vent stack for the bathroom plumbing, which is right there, with an existing exit through the roof, or do I have to create a new hole in the roof. The existing vent stack is 4" pvc.
Thanks to you, and to all, for your help.
Jeff
Several years ago, I made some nice money following a "handyman" thru an apartment complex. He had really hosed up several things and the owner got to pay me to find and fix the "work" he had paid for a few months earlier. My personal favorite was the drywall repair where he stuffed a hole full of newspaper and slapped on some mud.
If you're talking about tapping your fan exhaust into the plumbing vent line, I don't think you want to do that. Most vent lines are way to small to handle the fan flow rate. In fact, that might create a backpressure in the vent line and blow all the water out of the traps. Not a pretty sight - unless someone you really dislike is sitting on the throne and fires up the fan. (Man, what a visual!! - lol)
That 4" roof jack may be ok. What's the diameter of your exhaust line and how much of that 4" jack is used by something else?
The fantech website states that the exhaust of the unit I'm going to purchase is 6". The vent that I'm speaking of is the vent line for this bathroom. We have 4 bathrooms in this house, each having their own vents, as they are located in various spots throughout the house. I definately don't want to create a waterspout, as you say. That is, unless my wife is in there. LOL.
Can a unit with 230 cfm vent out a sidewall? I'd be more comfortable cutting into the siding than my new roof. Otherwise, I'd probably get my roofer friend to do the install of whatever you call the vent exiting the roof.
If I do vent out the sidewall, the exhaust line would be running down hill from the fan exhaust motor to the exit. Is this ok?
Thanks again for the help.
Jeff
My bathroom exhaust goes thru a gable end. For me, it was easier to poke a hole in the stucco and install a little flapper. (I'm paranoid about messing with a roof - lol.)
If you go thru a wall, will it be a gable end? I don't like exhausting warm, humid, air near rafter tails and under the roof sheathing. Downhill is ok because you don't want condensation running back to your fan.
Which path would be shorter? The name of the game is keeping the flow rate as high as possible and the shorter runs cut line resistance.
I think if I had a roofer buddy, I would go with a 6" roof jack unless the wall exit is a shorter run - and it's a gable end.
I'm just gonna have a new stack installed exiting the roof, and have the roofer do it so it doesn't leak. I've spent almost $200K renovating this place, and I'm not about to make a mistake like this now that I'm near the end. Thanks for all the advice.
Jeff
I assume by "vent line" you mean the pre-existing exhaust vent connection? Definitely DO NOT connect to a plumbing vent.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
Jeff,
I am currently about 95% done my first large bathroom reno. I have to caution, I am not a contractor, rather a HO who researchers things quite extensively. When I replaced my fan for my bathroom (10 x 10) I went with 130 CFM's b/c I have a steam system, but there are some things to consider. One I thing is that you have to be very careful on the CFM's. If you get too much, it will actually extract the hot / cold air that your furnace / A/C is working hard to maintain. Also, with a larger unit, most of the duct work you will likely have to replace all the way out the house. Some people only retrofit some of the duct line, and this causes problems b/c this is where the moist air will get "stuck" there temporarily. I'm sure that's not the technical term, but that's basically what happens.
The other thing to consider is the length of duct line b/c I know most of the ones I researched were all under 8' in length to obtain max. performance.
Hope this helps.
Dan
The last bath I did the owner picked a Hunter fan/light the seemed pretty quiet and was a good looking unit, if you did not know you would probably not guess it was a fan.
http://www.hunterfan.com/sort.php?pType=bfan&bfansrs=large
This is the one he used.
http://www.hunterfan.com/prodSum.php?pid=29&pType=bfan&sType=#
model 81001
View Image
Edited 11/17/2006 2:44 pm ET by rasconc