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I am doing a rennovation in the Northeast.The house has a 150 year old stone foundation .The mortar was mixed with beach sand(not uncommon back then).Any suggestions on strengthening the foundation ,short of taking the wall apart and remortaring???
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Why do you need to strengthen the foundation?
its a wide foundation and if I wanted to, it would easily come apart stone by stone.Tryingrto salvage it to the best of my ability.Just looking for some insight
its a wide foundation and if I wanted to, it would easily come apart stone by stone.Tryingrto salvage it to the best of my ability.Just looking for some insight
Sounds like my foundation, made from cut stone, rocks, bricks, mud and spiderweb. It looks like the one in Piffin's message, above, except that his stone foundation is a Lexus to my Yugo. My theory, and I'm sticking to it, is that 200 years of inertia have made it immune to collapse, at least while I'm still here. I do opt for earthquake insurance, though.
Edited 10/2/2007 2:07 pm ET by smslaw
What is 'spiderweb'?
It is not a term I am familiar with.
I was referring to real spiderwebs, the things that spiders weave and use to catch bugs.
Just by chance yesterday I found reference to 'spiderweb' in a masonry book. It is a style of random building where the joints between the stones radiate in all directions.
Spider's web could be a valuable building resource, don't they say that pound for pound it is stronger than steel?
don't they say that pound for pound it is stronger than steel?
No wonder my house hasn't fallen down.
Seems your expetise is needed here.
Are you in the Maine area??
Please fill in your profile so the great Pooh Baah Piffin may best answer your question.
My first guess would be to support the house then strategically place/pour concrete collums at the corners and half way along each wall.
But I ain't no expert.
Edited 10/2/2007 12:32 pm ET by jet
Rhode island
There are a few on the forum from RI. I do believe Piffin is on a small island just near RI"No doubt exists that all women are crazy; it's only a question of degree." - W.C. Fields
I'm actually in Maine. Mike Smith is on James island in RI
I have totally replaced several of these.
You have two problems
One is that there is salt in the mix, which weakens bonds in the mortar.
The other is that the mortar back then was lime based instead of portland based. As water moves through the soils over the years, the lime cam leach out of the mortar and leave you with nothing but sand.
Then freezing in the soils outside the wall can put expansive forces on the rubble wall and push it in.
What to do depends on how bad it is.
Work to keep water from moving through it by controlling surface drainage away from th e foundation, point up the joints with portland mortars, even try injecting epoxy but that is extremely expensive...
Sometimes guys have poured pillasters on the inside of a wall to buttress it, but I think that is generally a temporary solution...
the best long term one once a wall has started to move is to replace it.
Short of that, for a low cost solution that can work for 20-30 years at least when the wall is still sableis to point the joints in the exterior and have the polyurethene spray applied in the cellar or crawl space 3" thick. The waterproofing and adhesive qualities of that stuff goes a long way. Still a sort of a stop-gap measure, but worth considering.
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any sources of information on the polyurethane spray?
It is what is used by many for insulation. There are forms of it that are sprayed on roofs to both insulate and provide a roof waterproofing sometimes in low pitch commercial applications.I use the Corbond brand for insulation. The roof spray may be a tighter application for this purpose.
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I gotcha. I thought maybe there was product that hardened up. I was told by a guy that he used gunnite on these types of foundations applied to the interior. I thought it sounded kinda odd, but I'm a kitchen/bath guy, I dont' know much about stone foundations other than the fact that mine is about as water tight as chicken wire. Luckily I've never gotten water in my basement. I'm more concerned with the fact that I empty about 7-8 5 gallon buckets of dirt out of the basement every year.
If you can get somebody to gunnite that it would be far better than the foam spray. For me, it would take a minor miracle to get a gunnite crew out to the island here. Yeah, gunnite be the way to go, for sure!
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Before I bought it, my old house (fieldstone foundation) was improved with something called Neutocrete which was described to me as being very similar to gunnite. It's apparently intended for foundations. It was applied to the inside by some sort of spraying process (again, as it was described to me). It was applied to the basement walls, the dirt floor, in the crawlspace, etc. There are no seams and it runs right up the walls from the floor.I had to cut through it for a footing and discovered that the thickness varies a lot. Some places are ~2" thick and in others it is more like 3"or 4". I cut that footing hole when the stuff was about 6 or 7 weeks old. It was still pretty soft and cut easily with a brickset and a 3 lb. hammer. It's harder now (3 years later) but I have not tried to cut through it since then so I can't quantify that.The seller of the house left the basement closed up after the stuff was applied. It took a long time to cure and released a ton of moisture into the basement so if you pursue something like this be sure to ventilate well for several weeks after the installation.Lately I have noticed several cracks in the floor but none look serious - they're hairlines (not even 1/16") and don't seem to be opening up further.It was applied by a company in southern New Hampshire. If you are interested in contacting them, send me email and I'll look for the paperwork.Bob
See I knew the all knowing pooh baah would have info fer ya!!!!!!"No doubt exists that all women are crazy; it's only a question of degree." - W.C. Fields
Have sprayed 3" gunnite on two projects (stone foundations - 1773 and 19th cent. - where it wasn't visible) and waterproofed that - no problems. Gunnite isn't cheap.
Jeff
I feel your suffering. Where in RI are you? I am in Newport RI where beach sand was used extensively during early 1900's (mine built in 1917). Mind you mine is concrete with blocks of granite that were just thrown in during the initial pour I assume to save space and use less mix? I have replaced a 12' section w/block, repaired, parts, sprayed foam (which actually is holding alot of the crumbs back), and buttressed. I did investigate the gunite route a year or so ago, closest guys were Northeast Gunite and they quoted me around 6k for spraying about 120' of 8' wall 3-4" thick.I would like to have it replaced but at about 50k the local guy (who supports the house but does not lift it, takes out old foundation, form pours concrete then 2-3 courses of blocks the rest to sill) who does great work is the only show in town. In your case I would spray foam to fill voids then parge with wire lathe and a rich mortar mix. If your local I can give you more info. of the foam. I use it all the time in the 600 bd ft. size tanks for insulating etc.It's funny, in my 10 years of investigating solutions to this I have found different areas of the country have similar problems. Example is talking to guy from Colorado he had to have his foundation replaced because way back they used unwashed river sand in the concrete mix.Check out Nash's book Renovating Old Houses where there is alot on this subject.I always welcome advise, especially on this subject.
I say this assuming you have extra time and simply enjoy rebuilding for the sake of rebuilding, but you might consider purchasing a smallish mixer that can be placed in a convient place and whittle away at the foundation little by little.
This isn't my cup of tea, but I met a fellow who reno'ed a 120 year old commercial building in a historic distric into one of the nicest custom homes I've ever been in. It's been featured in a regional magazine, but the interesting part is really how many hours he's put into the structrual parts.
The old stones in the foundation required a huge amount of time. Every night for something like a year he would make himself mix up a bag of mortar and work on a few stones, drilling and picking out the old mortar, packing new in from the inside.
What he ended up with was a very solid basement that will surely last another 120 years.
I'm not saying it's easy, it's actually too tedious for me, but it's possible.
On the outside of the foundation walls, if it were me, I'd rent a mini excavator with a deep reach every once in a while and take out a couple feet of backfill. Then it's possible to use a long handled brush and compressed air (long extension) to clean off the external portions of the joints a bit. Then I'd put down rigid blue board covered with ice and water shield for insulation and waterproofing. Just stay out of the narrow trench because of the dangers of colapse.
It would be easier to cut a 12" strip of I&W to seel the seams and keep it in the freezer or fridge before unrolling it on the seam.
If it's simply backfilled the blue board will crack when it is forced to conform to the uneven rock face so I'd shovel rock chips behind it as needed as it's backfilled. Time consuming for sure. A roller on a pole will be needed once in a while to keep the edges of the ice and water from peeling back from itself.
There is a Canadian brand of ice and water with elephants stamped on the surface that ARXX uses for waterproofing that is tougher (has the same external texture as a blue tarp) and more sticky than Grace so the edges aren't as likely to peel apart by themselves once sealed.
Then from the inside you can drill/chip out the joints and repack with mortar without having to deal with external dirt.
Makes me tired just thinking about it, but some would find your project relaxing.
Best of luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Beachsand Foundation options - how did it go?
Hello! I am looking for a home, and one prospect has a stone and beachsand mortar foundation. circa 1880
I'm wondering how your project went, and what you ended up doing?
Also, who is the contractor you mentioned in Newport who does replacements?
I've attached 2 photos of the foundation of the home I'm considering - if anyone has any reactions, I'd be interested in any suggestions or opinions.
Thanks in advance for any information or advice!
-RIhomebuyer
Ri
Mike Smith Associates-Jamestown.
Good honest and really knows his stuff.