I have a two flat in Chicago and want to replace a 21 year old 40 gallon gas hot water tank and was wondering if you could help point me in a direction for which is the best name brand for effenciency/recovery.
Thanks
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Replies
Yeah, probably in the next 6-12 months we're going to replace our 30-year-old 52 gallon lowboy electric unit, so make it a general query.
happy?
If you want an electric heater, the best by far is the Marathon available at Graingers and probably many other places too.
It doesn't have any metal to corrode, no anode rod to stink up your water, very well insulated....Should last a lifetime!
Yeah, it it would fit I'd use a Marathon. But I have a constained space, and none of the Marathon units will fit. It's basically the size of the State ES6-50-DOCS.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Consumer Reports had a good general article on buying a water heater in their Feb. '05 issue. I found it quite helpful.
Advocate
Well, if you want the best in the business, I doubt any unit can top the capabilities of a turbomax, ergomax, or a Triangle-Tube Phase 3 indirect - if you have a powerful hydronic system to tie them into. The Viessmann Vitocell 300s are almost as good as a Phase 3 in terms of heat transfer, offer a better warranty, stainless 316Ti construction, etc. but at a premium price.
If you are serious about efficiency/recovery, consider a Polaris.
http://www.americanwaterheater.com/WHBrowser/gas/Polaris50.cfm
While I think my company makes the best water heaters, I advise you to shop around and look for the best value. You should be seeking a high Energy Factor (EF) and a long warrantee. I would be trying to find a EF=0.65 with a 12 yr. warrantee. The high EF will give you the best efficiency and the 12 yr. warrantee will give you quality, etc.
Bill
And what is your company, if you don't mind saying?
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
A. O. Smith...we make AOSmith, Kenmore, Maytag, State and Reliance brands. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the major brands. Bradford-White does not sell retail so I think your only alternative among the major brands is Rheem (GE) and American (which we are acquiring next month).
Bill
Yeah, our current 30-yo unit is a State, IIRC. Only want to replace it because of the relatively poor insulation (and the fact that it's GOT to fail sooner or later).
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I think that replacing a 30 year old heater makes a lot of sense. There have been at least 2 Government mandated efficiency increases since 1990 and I have no idea how many since your heater was made. My guess is that a new heater will save you at least $40/year but it could be much more (I have no way of know how bad the insulation in your heater is).
Contrary to popular opinion, glass lined steel is probably the best material known to man for storage of hot water. The life of such tanks depend on a number of factors: the quality of the glass used, how well the glass is applied and finally your water chemistry. Since your old heater lasted 30 years, I an assure you that you have quite benign water chemistry. We have tested all the glasses on the market and I can say without of doubt that our "blue diamond" glass is by far superior to anything else on the market in terms of resistance to water dissolution. As far as how well the glass is applied, well, the sacrifical anode's job is to protect the steel in any glass defects. you can maximize your tank life by making sure your anode is not consummed. It would be a good idea to check the anode every few years and if it looks like it is being consumed...replace it.
Other than EF and warantee, I am not sure that I feel you should look for anything else. There is lots of marketing hype around self-cleaning features but it is not a major factor as far as I am concerned.
If you have more questions, I would be glad to try to answer them.
Bill
That was quite a good answer, thank you. We have hard water with a fair amount of silt and rust, but have a water filter and softener ahead of the water heater that takes out 95% of the stuff. About every 5 years I flush the unit out by draining it and then blasting the cold water on and off to stir up the muck. I'm guessing that 2-5 inches accumulate. There's no evidence anywhere that the water is particularly corrosive.
Have never checked the anode. Can't get the blasted thing out.
We have been through 2-3 elements and a similar number of thermostats (though haven't replaced a thermostat in probably 15 years). Anything worthwhile I can do to improve that situation?
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I'd consider putting a 3" thick blankie on your water heater to achieve pretty much the same energy factor as the new units achieve. It's not as if the HX design has advanced much. HD and other retailers sell them. Beyond the blankie, there is little you can do, considering the uninsulated flue that goes up the middle of a gas water heater.Outside that, I would flush the thing more often to minimize sediment, which can lead to hot spots, burn through, etc. So AO Smith is buying American? Interesting...
Yeah, I put a blanket (maybe 3/4" thick) on the water heater about 25 years ago, but it doesn't cover the top.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I cann't say that I know of anything that would help a lot. Sorry!
Bill
If I have a newer unit with built-in insulation, can I improve performance by adding a blanket?
Advocate
Probably not. Feel the unit. If you can feel heat anywhere then the blanket might help. If it doesn't feel warmer than room temp anywhere then the benefits of the blanket would be negligible.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
the newest water heaters are very efficient. I don't think a blanket can hurt but I doubt that it is a great investment. (I have no data to prove this prejudice.)
I agree re: the blankie.If there is one thing I would invest in if tank maintenance were in the works, it would be a nice 1/4 turn brass drain valve to take the place of the cheapie plastic drain valves that water heater manufacturers seem to be using these days. Sooner than later, I'd expect a problem with the plastic from embrittlement, etc. So, with AWHG coming under your wings, are you guys going to have two manufacturing facilities in TN? I wonder how many of my former clients still work there... Say "Hi!" to Tim. S. if he's still in charge of engineering for me. If he can't place me by my first name, just mention the WeatherPro...
Yes, we expect to keep two manufacturing facilities in TN. The deal has not closed so I personally have not interacted with any of the folks from American.
Bill
Since your company makes Kenmore, I have a question. I have seen a natural gas WH on the Sears website listed as "high altitude". They don't actually list what altitude is considered high. My house is at 6400 feet and I am due for a new one. Should I only look at "high altitude" models? And what is the difference?
Thanks
You should definitely be looking for a high altitude model. Anyone over 4,000 ft. (I believe) should be. The gas orifice is different to make sure you have good, clean combustion even with the lower oxygen content in your air.
Bill
Care to suggest what features to look for? Is there anything better than glass lining for "conventional" electric units? (Like I said earlier, the Marathon simply won't fit.)
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Are the AO Smiths that are sold in south carolina still made in SC?
or has AO smith moved to Mekico like so many others?American makes the Lowes "whirlpool" heaters I think. Edited 3/23/2006 3:58 pm ET by edwardh1
Edited 3/23/2006 3:58 pm ET by edwardh1
The AOS water heaters sold west of the Rockies are made in Mexico but the ones sole in the East are made in Ashland City, TN.
Well you work for one of the "big 3" that I recomend to people all the time.
Side note---- I think I confused your help department, when I was looking to replace a really bad design in a 42 story hotel / condo I'm curruntly doing.
We have 5 story zones for the hot & cold water, & some engineer trying to make a name for himself ( I guess ) decided instead of pumping the re-circ back to the domestic boilers, was to install a small circ pump & have an eemax point of use water heater re-heat 50 hotel rooms.
I laughed when I first saw them being installed & won a good bet on how long they would last. About 22 days on avg."There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
Plumbill:
Based on your "handle", I'll address this to you. At one of the JLC conferences, I picked up an insulation & weatherization book. In it they illustrated heat traps for preventing conductive heat losses from what they referred to as “thermosiphoning”…. heat losses occuring due to hot water moving towards colder water, thus allowing cold water to enter the tank. Their solution to this “problem” is relatively simple; they employed a simple upward bend in both the incoming supply line & the outgoing hot water line - “sorta” like two upside down “U’s”. In the 3 years that I’ve followed this forum, I don’t recall anyone discussing this effect …is this bunk? Anyone? jimz
"A. O. Smith...we make AOSmith, Kenmore, Maytag, State and Reliance brands. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the major brands. "
A.O. Smith are Kenmore are the same? This is good to know because I bought a Kenmore 40 gallon gas back in 2001 and have had nothing but trouble with it! When and if I ever replace it I was going to get an A.O. Smith but not now.
Since it's installation we have not been able to take 2 hot showers back to back, hot water is intermittent and plastic drain plug is leaking. An absolute piece of sh$% but I'm too cheap to replace. Kind of surprised because I have good luck with Kenmore on the whole.
I said that AOSmith makes Kenmore and AOSmith water heaters. I did not say they were the same. In fact, the Kenmore units are made to Sear's specs.
I am sorry to hear you had problem with your Kenmore heater. It sounds like something unusual is happening with it.
Bill
Can you tell me a good Kenmore unit that would have at least 110% recovery?
I have had a Kenmore now almost 30 years and was thinking of staying with the brand.
Thanks
The "heat trap" you are referring to is becoming an industry installation standard.
Not just water heaters, but large volume mixing valves as well.
I'm pretty sure that IAPMO is going to include it as code in the near future.
New UPC on a public building will NOT allow the internal thermostat be the control for the domestic hot water system , anything that may contact human skin must have a mixing valve on it so the temp will NOT be above 120 degrees."There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
New UPC on a public building will NOT allow the internal thermostat be the control for the domestic hot water system , anything that may contact human skin must have a mixing valve on it so the temp will NOT be above 120 degrees.
OK, Now I'm confused. According to the law here in MA for my apartments. The hot water must be at least 120 degrees.
Yep, not above and not below. EXACTLY 120. Should be simple, right? :)
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Welcome to my world.Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
The best water heater is a heater that does not heat water until it is needed. The on demand water heaters heat the water as you need it, when you don't ask for hot water, it is off. The journal of light construction covered them in a recent article. They will cost more than a regular water heater but if your two concerns are limited space and efficiency, they are your best option. Only do a gas on demand, not an electric.
The attached file is a pdf, so find adobe if you don't have it.
You are correct about on-demand water heaters if you do not care about your total cost. If you are at all concerned about the money you are spending to heat your water then on-demand heaters are much more expensive due to high initial costs and high installation costs. These costs are not over come with the slightly lower operating costs until after many years.
how bout a rinni 300.00 tax credit never run out of HW vents out the side of house no flue liner . dont keep that tank much longer when it blows you will have none
State or Fed. tax credit?
fed
The federal energy department is offering a rebate for upgrading your heating equipment. In my state, massachusetts, I don't know if it is federal too but our state is also offering rebates for insulation upgrades, windows, boiler/furnace, water heaters, etc.
It is a tax credit and it is only for specific equipment.http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_creditsAnd under each item there is a link to list of equipment that is included.For tankless it looks only only some of the Bosch Paloma (Ruud/Rheem, and Richmond are included.http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/B9F3B9CF3BC4C7F585257107005DE622/$FILE/80EF.pdf
Edited 3/30/2006 11:41 am by BillHartmann
Tankless will save energy but not money
> Tankless will save energy but not moneyIt's not a given that tankless will save either. If hot water is used only in brief bursts then the standing losses from the tankless unit can be worse than the tank.And, especially a problem with electrics, the energy use of a tankless tend to come at peak times, whereas a tank stores energy, helping to even out network load. This can make the difference between burning cheap coal and expensive oil or natural gas.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I tried to access the approved-for-tax-credit pdf file Bill referred to on gamanet.org and all I get are dead links.
Here's the link he posted:
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/B9F3B9CF3BC4C7F585257107005DE622/$FILE/80EF.pdf
Does anybody have a copy of this on their computer that they could post directly in their reply, or maybe email me a copy?
My water heater died this weekend and I had already been considering a tankless model. Now I have to make a decision fast and would like to know which models are eligable for the tax credit.
Thanks,
Ted
The gamanet website seems to be down.Found the found in my temp folder.
Bill,
Thanks for the quick response! I'm sure that list will be a big help as I consider which model to buy, if I do end up going the tankless route.
-Ted
This question isn't directed at any particular individual, just in general.
I noticed a few comments regarding tankless systems and comparisons, payback periods, etc. One thing I'm curious about is how long it takes for hot water to get to it's final destination using both types of systems (tank and tankless).
For example, I grew up in a ranch style house, water heater on one end, and in one case a bathroom on the other end. During cold winter months, it would take awhile for the hot water to get to that bathroom if noone had used the hot water recently (The water in the pipes went cold bascially).
Some people install recirculating hot water systems so hot water is always being pumped through the house so you have hot water on demand bascially. However, you're also heating those pipes 24 hours a day in this scenario.
Using either system (w/o recirculating pipes) would result in the same type of scenario (having to wait for hot water to travel a long distance) wouldn't it?
Anyone have any idea which system would be more efficient in a scenario like this? Up front costs, yearly, etc. Best practice recommendations if you do want hot water instantly and the faucets, showers, etc are a distance away from water heater?
Absent some sort of recirculating system (and recirculation is somewhat easier to do with a tank), it takes the essentially same amount of time for hot water to arrive. It's basically a function of the volume of the pipe (length times cross-section area) beween water heater and fixture.In practice a tank unit may provide heat 1/4 second sooner, since it tends to get a little hot water up into the pipe, and since there's no delay for the burner to fire.There are basically two ways to get hot water faster, besides a recirculating system:
-- Smaller diameter pipes
-- Point-of-use water heatersThere are various tricks with each, such as using small pipes with ultra-hot water, then having a tempering valve at point of use.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Use a TacoGenie recirc pump. It is not continuous but on demand with a push button that starts it and a internal temp cutoff at 106 degrees with can be adjusted. I use them here in SoCal all the time with tankless heaters. Not a single callback
Place a blanket on water heater.
https://www.waterheaters.reviews/best-electric-water-heater/
Since you are in Chicago, check out ABT. They offer a wide range of options, are priced very competitively, deliver and install by their own employees and they will offer you either one or two years (depending on the purchase price) same as cash financing. They are an Amazon fulfillment center and have a huge inventory.
In my experience, going into the store will always result in a lower price than what is shown on the web.
Good luck.
For maximum carbon savings, consider a heat pump water heater. It operates on electricity, but functions very differently from a traditional electric water heater and runs on less than 1/3 the power. I have found the operation cost to be about the same as gas and the performance to be very strong. The wifi feature is nice to be able to turn it off for vacations, etc.
I have a 50 gal heat pump water heater in Texas, and it works really well and is highly efficient. In a very cold climate, one needs to look at where unit will be placed. You need a large volume of air around the heater and it needs to be somewhere relatively warm. The unit will cool the air around the unit, so a garage in Texas summer is great as it cools down the space a few degrees and may have 90 degree air to start with. In a cold basement in Chicago, it might be a lot less efficient if it is starting with 45 degree air..