Greetings,
What is the best way to frame exterior corners? I read about the “L” shape using 3 2×4’s and that seems pretty logical but my question is this, if you use this method and keep the studs 16″ o.c. the studs will be 16″ apart from the outside, but not the inside. Is this the way its done? Seems like it would make it more challenging for the drywalling later on as the corner stud and 2nd stud would be less than 16″. Am I missing anything?
http://www.nuwool.com/images/builder/CaliforniaCorners1.gif
PS, dont blast me, I’m not a pro just trying to build my own house.
Thanks.
Replies
Forget the U-shaped corner. Consider the three-stud arrangement into which you get insulation afterward.
But for all out efficiency . . . materials, labor, and energy . . . consider the advanced framing energy corner, in which you simply do it with two studs, leaving out the third "inside finish backer" stud you show in your sketch.
I have presumed a gypboard interior, and for that you will use drywall clips on 16" centers to "back up" the otherwise-unsupported run of rock coming into the corner on the no-stud side.
BTW, the reason we like 16 on center on the outside is for efficient sheathing usage. The drywall guys don't care as much, and a rocker can score and snap a board of rock quicker than a carpenter can mark and cut a piece of OSB.
Now, let's hear the chorus of disapproval of the 2-stud corner from those who, a.) will be unable to cite exactly why more material and labor usage is advantageous, and b.) probably aren't paying for the extra lumber anyhow.
A lot depends what the loads are, and whether it's in earthquake or hurricane country. Ask your local building department if they have a sheet of typical details the way they like it done. Here in LA they have a four page handout. Especially for an owner-builder, a happy inspector can be well worth a few 2x4's.
-- J.S.
Use three in the arrangement for the insulation. Drywaller and trimmer will expect it to be there, plus inspector will look for it to be there. No question the better way to go. If for any reason, it ties the walls together very nicely.
While you're at it, have a trimmer come through before drywall to help locate some needed blocks in strategic places. Experience can forsee the most logical places for extra blocks, which more than likely would have been discarded anyway.I get paid to do carpentry. That makes me a professional.
If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?
I use the two stud L
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffen -
Hou'se about showing us unedumacated folks a picture? His has three, not two on the L, (but you already knew that).
Don
three studs,solid backing..three studs on the outside wall.one on the insde corner.
lll
Edited 9/13/2005 10:04 pm ET by fishdog
that's how they make us do it
RTC
And who, pray tell, is "they?"
engineers,inspectors,GC's. who else would i be talking about?
RTC
I am an engineer and a GC, and will use a two-stud outside corner wherever I can. I buy the lumber, I pay for the framing labor (or do it), and I can see the savings. Every piece cut, moved, fastened, tweaked, etc., costs money in materials and labor.
We always see better drywall corner performance using the metal clips, and our corners are better insulated.
Our inspectors (NY state building code, IRC adopted) approve of it.
If we need extra lumber at an outside corner, it typically will provide nailing for outside trim, not sheetrock, and we place it accordingly.
2 studs is enuff studs.
View Image
Joe H
Edited 9/14/2005 12:24 am ET by JoeH
if you remove the stud what is the drywall going to fasten to.
drywall clips
RayMoore is right...you can get drywall clips to help support the panels. It also adds the benefit of floating corners, which reduce cracks from the framing expanding and contracting. check them out here: http://www.toolbase.org/techinv/techDetails.aspx?technologyID=176Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Thanks for that link Justin. I've framed for one builder that used the drywall clips on the ceilings, instead of backing, but I've never worked for anyone that used them on the inside corner on the walls. I printed out the explanation at the link you provided and I think I'm going to run this by every builder that we work for.
Blue
When the 2x shrinks those clips move as well.I dont know mabye i just had a rough day ,but who wants to be framin hot and heavy and stop and go search out some crazy clippys
> if you remove the stud what is the drywall going to fasten to.
Clips is one way to go. Another thing you could do instead of the full 2x4 stud is just a 1x3, a rip of ply, or even a few short pieces -- just enough to catch the sheetrock screws.
-- J.S.
Some info from the JLC Field Guide, page 135: "....the three-stud corner is more than just a nailer for sheathing or drywall - it must also transfer shear loads between adjoining walls. For this reason, don't omit the third stud where shear resistance is critical".
Round here the four stud corner was the most common method. Three stud corners are becoming more common. The two stud corners get a lot of derision. Carpenters seem to talk about framers who use two stud corners like us electricians talk about people who use push-in connections on receptacles. Considered to be cheap and sloppy. The sort of barely minimum installation that no sane workman would brag about.On the other hand A long time ago I worked a house designed by an architect that overbuilt everything. The guy had the entire house sheathed in 5/8" ply glued and closely nailed. The HO specified two stud corners but the corners were glued, screwed every foot or so and wrapped with steel straps top and bottom to keep the corner together. They used clips, looked like 12" OC, to support the drywall.The entire structure was overbuilt. Never got the straight dope but someone mentioned that the place was designed to stand up to 150mph winds. Maybe more. It was built on pilings which raised it up about 4'. I was told it was well above the 100 year flood level.It was an interesting job.
A 3 stud corner is required by the building code.
What code?
2000 IRC page 107, lower right addresses corner & partition posts - "Note: a third stud and/or partition intersection backing studs may be omitted through the use of wood backups, cleats, metal drywall clips or other approved devices that will serve as adequate backing for the facing materials."
Joe H
"2000 IRC page 107, lower right addresses corner & partition posts - "Note: a third stud and/or partition intersection backing studs may be omitted through the use of wood backups, cleats, metal drywall clips or other approved devices that will serve as adequate backing for the facing materials."Joe,Does it say that for outside corners?I can't imagine that somewhere you can only use 2 studs for an outside corner of a house and it passing code. I use four studs on every cornerof a house or addition and never had a complaint from anyone. I tried the California corners when I framed in Cape Cod.Joe Carola
Joe, you are over building if you are using four studs. I've used three for the last twenty years and every house we framed is still standing.
Unless there's some specific reason (earthquakes, etc.) most framers simply just waste lumber. Personally, I wouldn't let a framing crew put a four stud corner on my house. There's no extra strength gained (because the extra stud don't do anything) and it creates a cold corner. That's a double negative in my book.
blue
Blue,Yes, In your eyes I'm over building but I'm not saying that three studs isn't strong enough. The three studs nailed together is for one wall and the fourth stud nailed along side them is for the other wall giving a solid nailer for the top plate and a nailer for the sheetrock.How is four studs that are nailed together creat a cold corner?Joe Carola
Joe, your four corner system creates a significant thermal bridging.
Don't let stubborness stand in the way of building better.
blue
"Don't let stubborness stand in the way of building better."Blue,You wrote the book on stubborness........;-)"Joe, your four corner system creates a significant thermal bridging."Explain that to me and also how your way is building better than mine.Joe Carola
Few mentions of clips in this thread.
Curious if anyone uses or has tried - the nailer?
http://www.thenailer.com/
Thanks for any input
are you serious.
YES - I was seriously asking what people thought of those.
I would assume from your response that you don't think much of them.
Do you approve of any type of clip? - Serious Question
This copied from their site -
"It takes 2 skilled carpenters 2 days
to install wood blocking
in a 2000 sq ft home."I don't disapproive of the clips,but when a company has to resort to outright lies to push their own product, somethhng is amiss. A statement like that calls any other claim they might make into question.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree with you there. They seem to make a lot of outragous claims on how much it will save and how great it is for the enviroment and all.
I haven't really used clips and was curious what ones people use. Care to share some info with me on what you use?
Thanks in advance,
Shoe
We've built houses that exceed energy star status AND had decent corners that a person can nail base, siding and exterior trim to. It's one thing to say that you're building a house that will last a hundred years and another to actually do it without drywall cracks, loose trim, etc. Nothing fun about nailing into thin air.
What is fun is seeing sheetrockers ####-foot around clips while sanding so they don't bump the corner and crack the joint. What's even more fun is watching them watch you when a corner cracks and the tattooed neck kid has an "oops" look on his face.
Clips are right up there with interior door jams rabbited to accept sheetrock and no trim, sheetrock window returns, hollow-core doors, melamine, and tile guys who try to convince everyone that using sanded caulk in corners isn't necessary.
Cheers, Don
Wow, I didn't know #### was a bad word. :-)
Dont forget to stop by the lumber yard on the way in to work to pick up some drywall clips,Oh and that vinyl slider for the master bedroom.
> This copied from their site -> "It takes 2 skilled carpenters 2 days> to install wood blocking> in a 2000 sq ft home."
The thing that's weird about a claim like that is, how would anybody know how long it really takes? Blocking and nailers are things you do as part of the framing, as you go. How would you even decide exactly when to start and stop the clock if you were to try to get a real answer? It's not a start and do it and nothing else till you're done type thing like sheetrock or paint.
To try to get a handle on it, we know that it's got to be more than zero and less than the whole job. But what fraction of the framing is it? Maybe 1%? 5%?
That being said, by any reasonable definition, attributing four days' work to it sounds high.
-- J.S.
Edited 9/15/2005 2:33 pm ET by JohnSprung
Seriously ,no i have never used them or seen them.predominatly framing for the last 18 years i like solid corners to nail up after plumb n' line.We try to use scrap or form lumber for backing.I cant tell u how many times i have put holes in the building paper with a hammer tacker or dont have significant nailing for siding and trim.i am all for conservation, but i dont skimp on backing.As far as the insulation factor ,that is one trade i dont know much about.
I have always used a 3 stud corner like the one on the right in JoeH's post 8 in this thread. Thought clips were a sloppy short cut. Had seen something on the nailer in a mag in the past. Thought I would ask about them after seeing the posts here about people that use clips.
I think I still like the idea of having the solid board in the corner. Might try the clips along the ceiling joint or something sometime.
Thanks for the response,
Shoe
Got a bag of them in the van--get them from Shelter Supply down in Lakeville--I like them---Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Thanks for the info Mike.
Joe, lets just look at the facts. There is not need for a corner to have four solid studs, structurall speaking, unless your in an earthquake zone and they are required.
The presence of solid members reduce the effective insulation yield. You do agree that your corner is colder than a corner that contains insulation, don't you?
If solid studs is better, why don't you just nail the studs solid along the entire perimeter of the house? Don't leave any spaces for insulation.
Your not finding the balance between structural needs and energy savings. It's guys like you that are causing global warming. That hurricane wasn't Bush's fault...it was your fault!
Now, go study the numbers regarding energy loss due to excessive use of studs in exterior walls. Find the proper balance. You know: ying and yang.
blue
Joe, lets just look at the facts. There is not need for a corner to have four solid studs, structurall speaking, unless your in an earthquake zone and they are required.
I never said four solid studs was needed structurally but I always thought that it was. I nail three studs together and nail one on each corner of the longest wall and then I raise the wall. Now I frame the side wall with a stud on the end which will be my 4th stud for the corner once I rasie the wall up. Once I raise the wall up I nail that 4th corner stud into the 3 studs and just shoot some nails in it and walk away with no braces.
For me it's fast and easy. It also gives me solid nailers for outside corner boards when I do the exterior trim instead of your 1-1/2" stud.
The presence of solid members reduce the effective insulation yield. You do agree that your corner is colder than a corner that contains insulation, don't you?
Never thought about it or ever heard of that before so my answer is, no.
If solid studs is better, why don't you just nail the studs solid along the entire perimeter of the house? Don't leave any spaces for insulation.
No, I'll just start elminating more and more studs like you do for insulation reasons and maybe even eliminating the second top plate also with no laps.
Your not finding the balance between structural needs and energy savings. It's guys like you that are causing global warming. That hurricane wasn't Bush's fault...it was your fault!
It's not my job as a framer to figure out how to frame for energy savings and eliminating studs, I'll leave that up to the Architects, Engineers and guys like you.
Now, go study the numbers regarding energy loss due to excessive use of studs in exterior walls. Find the proper balance. You know: ying and yang.
I don't need to study this yet. I'll keep it the way it is.
Come to think of it Yin and Yang is like you and me, I'm Yin and your Yang...;-)
Joe Carola
Edited 9/14/2005 11:41 pm ET by FramerJoe
> The presence of solid members reduce the effective insulation yield.
I've seen clear evidence of that on cold, humid mornings. If the conditions are just right, the framing of an exterior wall telegraphs thru the stucco. The moisture evaporates off where heat comes thru the wood, but not over the bays. This would happen on a big windowless wall on the side of a store next to a Jack-in-the-Box where we got breakfast.
-- J.S.
Look at the frost pattern on a roof, and you can clearly see where the rafters or trusses conduct heat right on out, and melt the frost there first.
On cool humid mornings, houses sided in vinyl will have the frost or dew melted off where every stud and header lies. It is like seeing an x-ray.
I'll bet a lot of these "more wood is good" folks chiming in here are the same ones I see putting boxed oversized headers over openings, and carrying the large header sizings seen in the bearing walls around the corner and through the nonbearing gable end walls. It's like, "hey, I'm not buying the wood, so what if we use more."
I don't use more wood gratuitously, but neither do i think that the way to reduce that teelgraphing is to use less wood. foam sheathing panels and other good insualtion details is the right way to interrupt thermal bridging. The open L corner is one of them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
neither do i think that the way to reduce that teelgraphing is to use less wood
Piffin, you can't have it both ways. Either you're causing a cold spot, or your not. If you foam over the exterior, the four stud corner is still relatively colder.
blue
> Look at the frost pattern on a roof, ....
Here in Southern CA we don't have frost. It seems that this kind of telegraphing must be common in cold climates. It's rare enough here to rate a "Hey, lookit that." ;-)
-- J.S.
everybody here been talking about saving a single 2x on the corner, well you still have to buy the clips. what we talking 4 corners, 4 2x's mayb $20 savings.
BB,
I think along the same lines. My first iompression of the clips the first time I heard of them or saw them, was that "hey, this is a great way to do backup framing for carpenters who can't figure out ahead of time how to plan to build a corner."I did the backup framing on some condo jobs for a couple winters. It is amazing how much gets left out in the mad rush to hire anybody with aa nail bag and hammer and just get it up and closed in.Did anybody notice on the website linked that those clips are designed for "interior " corners. To me, that means partition wall intersections, not a structural exterior corner of the houseSomebody askled eaarlier if I didn't mean a three studd corner when I said I use a twwo stud L. I guess in the context of this thread, I do. but to me, the first wall raised is the one that contains the corner. The third stud is part of the end wal. and has to be there anyway. If I send a helper off to build all the corners for the job, it is the L of the fiorst wall. I like that way because of the insualtion properties.That said, i have a sub who prefers the way Joe does it, with three studs in the foirst wall and the foruth in the end wall - a four stud corner. The biggest reason there is that you have plenty good nailing on the outside for the cornerboard and the claps.Makes no diff to me either way. We don't get telegraphing in the corners, but we don't use vinyl either
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We don't get telegraphing in the corners, but we don't use vinyl either
The telegraphing of the cold spots is not limited to vinyl. It shows through LP, Hardie plank, stucco, shingles and any other material nailed directly to the walls, roofs.
blue
And so we fuss around with clips and trying to save a stud here and there while most of the heat loss will be through the windows anyway.
Brownbagg, you make it sound like it's trivial. Multiply that "single" stud by the two billion corners framed each year and you'd save enough lumber to rebuild New Orleans.
Next, do the calculations for energy loss and the burning of more fossil fuels to heat those cold spots. Everyone wants to badmouth the government for not doing their part to minimize global warming, but we can't even get ordinary carpenters to take the baby steps to save lumber and energy.
I'm not advocating the use of 2x2 studs and pouring 2" of concrete. I do however, advocate the careful consideration of structural framing needs, especially in the thermal barrier walls.
blue
Stinger, I still run into old guys that think we should automatically put a double 2x12 header in every opening, upstairs and down, regardless of the load above it. I've been called a hack by these types of guys that criticized me for not putting a 2x12 header, on jacks over a 2' bi-fold door that ran perpindicular to the joist.
Long ago, I learned to ignore their ignorance. Unfortunatly, there is a lot of old growth timber (select doug fir) wasted on nothing. It would have been better to burn it in a campfire.
Like I said, if a framing contractor framed a four stud corner (three and one) for me, I'd make him rip it out, pull the nails and put in one that allowed insulation. If he didn't do that, he wouldn't get paid until I did it myself, then backcharged him for the labor (I would re-use the lumber somewhere where it was needed).
blue
Thanks for helping out John!
I too have seen many instances of thermal bridging. On certain days in the winter, I can see every framing member on both the roof and walls of houses. I've also been in homes that had condensation, ON THE INSIDE of the house walls at the top plates. This was back in Carter days when energy savings was all the rage. This particular couple had shut off the upper rooms from the main house heat and wondered why they would get frost and dampness in the corners.
Anyone that refuses to acknowledge the facts regarding thermal bridging is either being disengenous, just plain silly, or they have their head buried in the sand and haven't woke up to the realitys of modern science.
blue
If you wil bear with me a minute I relate this the language commonly used to describe and the lelater physical experience. Wood is seen as an insulator. We think of wood lined family rooms and dens as both visually and environmentally as warm.What is less understood it where wood falls in terms of insulation value. For softwoods the R-value is about 1.4 per inch thickness Hardwood about .9 per inchFor comparison fiberglass runs about 3.1 per inch and cellulose 3.5/ in.For an equivalence of 3.5" of FG insulation, not considered by many a great insulator, the wood would need to be almost 8" thick.Point being wood is an insulator. It just isn't, in comparison to other common materials, a very good one.
I agree 4Lorn.
Aluminum is an insulator too.
blue
I knew a log home builder who claimed his log walls with an average thickness of 10" were equivilent to an R-19 2x6 wall. He also said that his log homes used less energy to build since the product is processed so little (just felled, limbed, hand peeled and fitted). The shell required no sheathing, siding, insulation, drywall. Further, he claimed that the volume of wood removed from the forest to be about the same for log and conventional frame, but waste from conventional material processing much higher. Less wood in the house...more in the wastestream (slabs, edges, saw kerf, etc.) I'm sure more material is being recovered now, even if only for garden mulch. Still, he made some interesting points. Those homes had the ultimate solid wood corners.
Edited 9/15/2005 9:43 pm ET by basswood
Claims are not facts.
What do the scientists say about the thermal properties of a 10" log?
blue
Here is a claim that goes farther than the builder I spoke about:http://www.rockytopent.com/faqs.htmR-19 for 9" logsedit to add: a little googling turned up some interesting facts: most walls with R-19 insulation only have "whole-wall performance" of R-16 due to thermal bridging...so less wood is good.on the other hand, some log homes with R-11 rated walls outperform 2x6 walls with R-19 insulation...so more wood can be good. Thermal mass effect. This is most effective in locations like the mountains in the western U.S. (relatively warm sunny days & cold nights). Here in MN, thermal mass is of little value when it is below freezing for long periods.
Edited 9/15/2005 11:20 pm ET by basswood
this is a very interesting thread--but still the question remains---Best way to frame corners?Square I say---Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
I tried squaring up some corners this July, diagonals were perfect...so I glued and nailed the frame into place...and had myself a perfect trapezoid. Oh yeah, diagonals only verify squareness if opposite sides are equal in length...I forgot to check that.I hate having to fix my own mistakes.
It is always so much less painful to learn from someone elses mishaps---Thank God I paid attention in Geometry class its paying off big-time now.Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
How about frozen drywall mud in those top corners.
Takes awhile to dry like that.
Joe H
Yes JoeH, those frozen mud corners are proof of thermal bridging too!
Thanks for the observation.
blue
there it is.solid nailing for every thing and everybody.the guys worried about wasting lumber can make a scrap sandwich on that 4 1/2" corner.Good nailing for drywall,paper,siding,trim.lathe ,whatever.
QUIT WIDDLEN AND NAIL IT.
Joe, the picture in the book is basically the same two earlier in this thread, plus an intersecting partion wall.
Outside corners, yes.
I think in an area where I was concerned about shear, like a door or window opening close by reducing the sheathing surface I might add that third stud, but not on every corner.
What code are you using? I'm in Utah, IRC is statewide.
Joe H
Joe,
I used a four-stud outside corner on my house since the engineer spec'd it. The walls in the L.R. are 12'4" with a 4:12 pitch hip roof. Since eastern LI now has to conform to the building code hurricane standards, we've got to use metal strapping on everything it seems. The engineer spec'd 2 rows of metal strapping that was 4' in either direction at the corners and at any breaks at the sub fascia, essentially creating a tie band around the perimeter of the roof. The hips in turn were double 2x12's or LVL's. The engineers reasoning was that there was a concentrated load at the corners. Given that the stud lengths were 12' I'm sure the extra stiffening didn't hurt. What makes my corner slightly different was that I doubled up the 3rd stud that is used as the backer (on the flat) for the sheetrock. Since this was on a 2x6 plate I put in 2 1/2 inches of dow board (rigid insul) before sheathing wet on to eliminate the cold corner situation.
There is the answer, right on page 52 of the new issue of FH.