Best way to weatherproof wood windows
Everyone here has been quite helpful over the past several months as we plan a renovation and pull the permits. Here’s another question:
What’s the best protocol for weatherstripping wood frame windows in a Victorian, assuming (as I am) that I am willing to have a contractor pull each window, bead, frame in turn (to de-lead paint them)….
This Old House’s (yes, I can hear the jeers) old PBS site had a procedure that they used on a period Concord Mass house, but I bet people here have a reference to an article or a website that is
1) easier
2) actually something you can talk a window contractor into.
So, anyone have any ideas?
Thanks
NotaClue
Replies
I think what I "may" do on all my old wood windows (circa 1680) is to remove all the sash cords and spray foam in there because cold air comes through there like you wouldn't believe.
I've used in past houses a simple metal spring device that you slip in between the sashs and jambs that puts tension on the windows. Enough to keep em' up and not so much that theyre hard to pull down.
I used em' in a past old house of mine for about ten years so I know they work.
Just hope I can find them somewhere again.
Be warm
a...
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Here's a link for a local (Boston) non-profit which does great work (including window repair classes for DIY's) and has some hard to find materials for window repair, like pulley seals and the large 1+1/8" bronze v weatherstripping http://www.bbmc.com/bbmc/prod_windowrepair.html
I have used that weatherstripping on my windows, used on both sides of the sash it might provide enough pressure to eliminate the need for pulleys, though I have not been that brave.
Those sash-cord replacements you mentioned are here under "window controls" http://www.bbmc.com/bbmc/windowparts/other_parts.html#page1prings
I am sure the fine people there would be happy to mail stuff down to strong island for you -
hey...Rick, thanks ....very helpful
Be well
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
I think the question that now presents itself to me is this:
Bronze strip weatherstripping or Nylon?Any ideas on pros and cons?
NotaClue
Bronze strip weatherstripping can make some really neat Kazoo-like sounds when that ol' North Wind blows hard, LOL....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
<<<when that ol' North Wind blows hard, LOL....>>>>Dino
So does a blade of grass tween yer thumbs if ya blow just right....and yer post reminds me of a lyric in a Dylan song.
Be a fresh one (inside joke tween' us BT party goers)
a...
PS....See ya in Ohio
PSS I still wanna know yer real name TC....still don't belive it even though you showed me yer passport
Tom Collins perhaps?The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
...and yer post reminds me of a lyric in a Dylan song.
There have been so many lyrics concerning the wind it's not even calculable. Probably due to most poor struggling songsmiths living in drafty garrets at some point in their careers....
But when your windows start singing a Kazoo version of Beethoven's Fifth, ya know it's time for another wool blanket on the bed....
Storm windows with darted silicone-rubber weatherstrip is the way to go. Gives you the authenticity, the beautiful look, and something to do just before Thanksgiving and just after Easter every year. Set 'em up with flathooks on the top and hook-n-eye sets in the sill and you'll never even have to get out yer ladder....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Sorry, but I'm having trouble imagining this exactly; What's the how and where of the hardware exactly?
Thanks
NotaClue
The hardware for hanging the storms is simplicity itself. You want to buy sets of storm-window hangers, which are composed of (a) flat hooks with a 2- or 3-screw mounting plate on them (this is screwed to the trim on the outside of the house, at the top of the window); the other half of the set is (b) a slotted affair that you screw to the storm window itself. When it's time to install the storm windows, you just carry them up inside the house and shove each one out through the window, then catch the flathooks with the slotted pieces on the storm. You then pull it closed, and screw ordinary hook-and-eye sets on: the hooks gets screwed into the inner face of the bottom of the storm window, and the eye gets screwed into the sill of the main window case.
The other way to attach storm windows is with butterfly nuts, but that requires you to install them from outside, unless you have stop bars instead of rabbeted sills, jambs, and headers; in that case you can screw the butterflies to the inside of the storm and turn them to lock it in place against the stops.
Darted silicone-rubber weather stripping is simply a silicone-rubber tube moulded with a double or triple 'arrowhead' shaped bead running along the outside. You install this into a groove routed into the face of (ideally) the stop bars (so it works for your summer screens, too) or--more usual in retro-fits--the inside face of the storm window. Installation is a snap; you just push the 'darts' into the groove, and the rubber tube stays there unless you pull like hell to tear (and I do mean tear) it off. When the window is hooked shut, the tube gets squashed between the stops or rabbets and the face of the storm window. Makes a nice tight seal. Doesn't play any kazoo music no matter how hard she blows....
If cutting a groove won't work for you, there are plain tubes you glue on with a special silicone goo.
This kind of weatherstripping is available from any good glazier's shop, or by mail from a couple of different manufacturers in the States. At least one of them advertises in FHB fairly regularly. The flathooks and so forth ought to be available in pretty much any hardware store worthy of the name. (Don't bet on the big boxes, though....)
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Thank you, that answer was simplicity in itself.
I think I understand now.
However, one more question: how would you install these storms on a double hung that was the center window to a bay window and was therefore 64" X 77" (Width/height)
Thanks!
NotaClue
You've got a double hung that is 64" wide as one sash? Whew. How do you open it without help? <;-)>
If you have one storm that big (64x77) for a bay window, I would hope it's on the ground floor. I'd be tempted to install that bugger with butterfly nuts from the outside, although it could be set up with flathooks on top and butterflies on the bottom to lock it closed. In any event, I'd want a helper to put one in that was that heavy and unwieldy. If it's too high to put in standing on the ground, I'd set up staging of some sort, too.
In many of the old bay windows I have seen, the storm sash is semi-permanently screwed or nailed in place over the center of the bay--which is often as big as the one you mention and consists of 16 or 20 lites--and the operating sashes are on the 45-degree returns on each side. The big storm sash is only removed when the window is repainted every x number of years....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Well, the location of the two windows is sort of the rub; the first is on the second floor and the second is on the third floor. Remember, it's a Victorian, so the first floor height starts 12 feet off the ground, plus a 14 foot ceiling, meaning the second floor windows starts at 26 feet off the ground!
It's sort of a reach...
NotaClue
Still having trouble visualizing a five-and-a-half-foot-wide double hung....
Can you post a photo?
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I'll try below! This window is 64.5" wide and 84"tall ; The house was built in 1889 in San Francisco and, as the architects and contractors who've walked it like to say, it has good bones.Almost all the windows work right now, but they're covered in lead, so they're coming out and getting seriously cleaned up (along with the stops, parting beads, rubbing services of jambs, etc).When all the dust has settled (or been sucked away in HEPA vacuums, and no, we're not living in the house), we are figuring $60,000 for the 39 windows.Gotta love this house.
Edited 2/11/2005 1:20 am ET by NotaClue
Not--
When you post photos, try to keep the size of the file close to 100kb; a lot of us are on dial-up (it took 6 minutes for your photo to download here). If you don't have one of the fancier photo-editing programs or practice in using one (I don't either), usually just shrinking it down will do the trick. Here's yours shrunk a bit.
View Image
I've got to admit, I've never seen a double-hung that big outside of a school or other public building, and I can't think of an easier way to deal with the bi-annual installation of storms or screens for that than I've already mentioned. Which is to say, it's gonna be a PITA....
But being as you're in SF, you're not dealing with the kind of cold we do here. Maybe the easiest way is just not to have a storm window at all and wear a sweater on windy days. What do other similar homes in your area have? Are there any original storm windows left on any of the other houses nearby that you could take a look at?Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Sorry about that!
I'm still learning to do stuff like that and didn't intentionally want to torture anyone with a slow download.The reason for the storms is two-fold:
First, we get the El Nino's around here from time to time. In my current place, that meant 50 mph winds with gusts to 70 mph (no misprint). Water and wind get driven straight through weatherstripping. I had to screen door my rear steel framed door just to give it a chance against that kind of air/water pressure.
Second? That side faces the street--and the floor above has major sleeping rooms. Thus, garbage trucks, the neighbors' noisy motorcycle (a Duccati? Ducati?) and every day street noise do not bode well for sleeping---all the sites on sound insulation say that Storms and airspace (double spaced glass) if not laminated glass are the way to go...Thanks!
NotaClue
Oh, yeah, I hear you about high winds: My place is on the south side of the lake, so in winter--when the winds come howling down from the Northwest--it often seems like there's nothing but a flat sheet of ice between the north wall of my house and James Bay. Try 120kph winds at -35C sometime if you wanna find out what Mother Nature can be like when she's on the rag....
It does seem like storm windows are gonna be required for your comfort and sanity. Unless you're willing to leave those two big mutha's in place year round, that means changing them out somehow, and they just sound too big for one person to handle either poking them out from inside (too heavy; you'd drop it into the street) or up a ladder carrying it to hook on from the outside.
Here's a thought from 'outside the box': Rig up a pulley--a small snatch block would be ideal--to the outside of the house up at roof level. (The best idea would be to build a hoisting beam and hang your pulley from that, the kind you see on those tall, narrow houses in Amsterdam, but if you don't want to get that involved, just rig it so you'll have access to it for reeving and unreeving the hauling line.) Then run a big eye-bolt through the storm sash so the eye is on the inside of the bottom rail, and hook on your tackle there. Then have one person haul a storm up to window level while the other stands by inside the house to hook it on. The window should come up upside down and inside out; the 'hooker' has to grab the lower edge (which is the top rail) and 'fold' the sash in and up; the flathooks will then be on top and outside so they can be hooked on to the house. Once it's hooked on, release the tackle from the eyebolt (it'll be accessible to you), close and hook shut the sash, then lower away on the tackle to get the second window. Reverse for springtime removal. (Use a tag line to control the storm window and prevent it from turning or banging into the house as it's hauled up or down.)
I know it sounds a little Rube Goldberg-ish, but it'll work and it's not as complicated as it seems. Best I can think of. Hope you've done a little sailing or know someone who has, LOL....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
And if you convert the picture to JPEG, the file can be significantly smaller and the picture still be sharp enough to see. If it's a line drawing, make it a GIF and you can get it really small.Plus, not everybody can open BMP files.
Unc--
I actually did convert it to jpeg; only when I saved it I forgot to change the filename so it went in as 'whatever.bmp'
I've got a copy of some hi-falutin' photo program that came with my digital camera, think it's called Quicktime or something. But I won't run it because the version I got 'for free' with the camera is so aggressive that everytime I open it it tries to dial onto the internet automatically and get me to click on a link to a most definitely not-for-free upgrade.
Lexmark's really basic photo editor does 99% of what I need to do....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Is this better as a photo attachment? I mean smaller and easier to download?
NotAClue
Worked very well for me. Different people have different upper bounds on the size of pictures they will open. I don't have any problem with files up to the neighborhood of 150K. Some people gag on anything over 50K or so.I think pictures have to be big enough to do the job. I've seen 20K and 30K pictures posted here that just looked like blobs to me. And I'm fairly sure it's not my eyes (new glasses in June) or my monitor (20" Hitachi). :o)Generally people will ask for a retry if there's a picture they want to see but don't want to take the time to download.One more unsolicited hint, unrelated to the file size. The picture in this message is rather severely cropped. Just a few more inches on all four sides would have given a little more visual context to help us understand what we're seeing.
BTW, this is a picture of the smaller windows, rather than the big center Bay ones...
I've thought about rigging a derrick, actually, from the top of the house/porch for using to hall all sorts of things!
I just don't think I can talk my wife into it...
Anywhere, here are the small windows...
NotaClue
That big cornice with picture rail under it is similar to mine, only larger. Picture rail is great to have if you move pictures around a lot.
As for the storms, I was going to suggest the same rope and pulley idea. The only thing you'd need to leave permanently fixed to the exterior is a sturdy stainless hook above each top floor window. Instead of flipping the storm sash, I'd try to make some sort of mounting arrangement that lets me place the bottom first, and temporarily secure the sash with the top leaning out about 8". That would give you room to rig/unrig the pulley from the exterior hook.
-- J.S.
Very interesting idea! I'll have to think about that one...
NotaClue
Just wanted to throw my hat in for replacing the windows with wood replacements.
With historically accurate ones from Marvin, etc. They can match muntin profiles, rail sizes and so on.
The reason I say that is they will work dare I say much better than any site done weatherstripping. Not to say it cant be done, but you will never get the same performance and weathersealing.
Also, the myth that good storms and single glazing are equal to low e wood replacement windows in terms of r value and air infiltration are simply not true.
My old house had wavy glass that I saved, to go into cabinet doors.
Every time I go to open the windows (and they work) and not have to deal with storms I grin.
If it looks the same and operates better and gets rid of the biggest producer of lead in your house, well, there you go.
I spent about 600 smackers per opening. Most of the sash redo guys get at least a grand a hole. Hmm.
OTOH any modern window will eventually fail due to failure of the spacer. Then you've got condensation between the panes (as well as loss of insulation value). Single-pane windows will never fail in this way.
So you would put in single glazed windows w/storms in new construction??
Thats a bit like telling someone who just bought a new car that eventually it will break down, and they shouldnt ever drive it because they could end up stranded on the roadside!
Hmmmm. Yah, I suppose I could go the all Marvin route---but something about it seems wrong. Can't quite put my finger on it....but it seems out of character for the house---in the way that running water plumbing isn't...
If that makes any sense at all.
NotaClue
I hear you. Its funny, some of the wavy glass sash I had were in fact replacements. So I didnt feel to bad.
BTW, the FHB did a story one time about a cottage that had new doors w/ insulated glazing that was wavy......dont remember anything when though.
Windows are a trade-off between maintenance and durability. With modern windows people have opted for low-to-no maintenance and accept that windows will have to be replaced every 20 years. In olden days people figured on having to maintain the windows (the ones that had a clue anyway).http://www.windowrepair.comI know there are vulnerabilities in old windows, especially heat loss through the weight pockets, but people shouldn't subscribe to this trash-the-old mentality. You can still get a long way towards modern window efficiency at a fraction of the cost of window replacement. Plenty of fine old wood windows being discarded and replaced with cheap vinyl garbage.BTW if looking for wood screens:http://www.oldfashionedwindows.com
Here's the essential problem; maintaining old windows is no problem if there's no lead paint involved; however, that seems to have changed everything on our job, requiring that the sashes and the frames/sills/stop beads be stripped...
NotaCluePS
And driving cost...
Not to belabor the point, but the poster is spending 60 grand to retrofit his old windows.
Which arent even that old.
Hell, they were starting skyscrapers in New York in 1889.
This isnt Mount Vernon or Betsy Ross' house.
What I was saying is to put in a higher quality overall product, period. If the sashes fail, so what. Most likely they will be covered under the 20yr + warranty.
Even so, the benefits of having a factory weatherstripped unit far outweigh the negatives with weatherstripping them and living with a compromise, in my opinion.
No lead paint issues, no condensation on the wood storms, factory primed interior/exterior-and they could match the original, and they would be cheaper.
But, hey, what do I know.
It sort of the reason I drive a newish truck, and not a Model T. - if you get my point.
Obviously, there are some Model T drivers on this thread.
The line that restorationists draw over what is "original" to a house and "appropriate" is so vague and arbitrary. When ever I hear this sort of pinheaded thinking I chuckle, and remember the restoration done on Mount Vernon (G. Washingtons home).
Seems the house had already been remodeled for a hundred years or more before old George took possession. Then he tore down and rebuilt alot of the place, to the point that the "experts" were all confused as to which sort of architectural "style" to restore the house in. From what I read, there were raging debates on what particular year and style to restore the mansion to.
Should George have not changed the already 100 year old windows and wood siding on his house because they were "original" to the house? Did he do something wrong?
If there was a window available to him when he did his remodeling, that would stop drafts better, dont you think he would have made that improvement? I think so.
Probably, no, actually, you make some wonderful points.
Of course, if I was being strictly rational about this, I would have never gotten into an old house!
There are things to celebrate about it though...
And the windows are one...
I thought about Marvin's too--in truth, with 43 openings in the building envelope, I, 13% overhead and 6% profit for the contractor (20% mark up), I have a sneaky suspicion the costs are still up there...The current bids for removing, renovating and returning some of the most elaborate windows to the house are about $1750 for a double hung, wooden sash, with 19 lights in the top sash and 1 light in the bottom; total dimensions for the window are 34" X 84"....
They will come back us dipped, primed and rebuilt where necessary with wood from stocks of old growth taken from (I'm not kidding) demolished period chicken sheds...
The contractor will change out/strip all the parting beads, stops, and hardware will be restored or replaced with period appropriate hardware...
Once the windows come back primed, they will be painted by the painters, then the window contractor will complete the installation with routed in/grooved weather stripping...We know it's crazy...
NotAClue
Be sure you have the window frames restored BEFORE the sashes come back. (Not sure if that is being included in the price or not from your post).
Oh, and frankly if they are priming the windows sashes, they should paint them too. Easier while out of the frame, and can be done in shop conditions rather than outside in the weather.
<<<<Storm windows with darted silicone-rubber weatherstrip is the way to go. Gives you the authenticity>>>>Dino
HUH? Never heard of that....have a link???
Do you mean home made storms or is something out there ready for my measurements?
BE a fresh one : )~
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
I'm learning a lot here.
So, What I think he means by authenticity is you save the original frames and mullions in using weatherstrip, rather than getting new Vinyl clads....
NotaClue
Andy,
Call these guys and get their catalog -- unfortunately it's not online. They've got more ways to weatherstrip than I have wind...
http://oikos.com/products/company_detail.lasso?ID=1793
Anyway, you'll see the darted silicon strips that fit into a groove routed in the jamb, or wherever you're routing.
Be blowin fresh in the wind...
Billy
Billy
Thanks dude....I'm callin' today.
Be well
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
Another weatherstrip catalog worth getting.
http://www.pemko.com
1-800-283-4050
They dont sell direct but they can tell you where the nearest dealer is.
Just to add to all that has been said so far:drafts occur not only because of leaks in windows and doors, but also because the air coming in has somewhere to go.In a heated house on a cold day that is "up" (chimney effect).Besides the excellent window advice given already, you should spend some time in your attic and work to seal up all openings between your conditioned space and the attic as much as possible, including all stud bay cavities, electrical, chimney penetrations and the hatch/stair opening. An airtight membrane on the top of the living space, and a good layer of airflow preventing insulation (cellulose or foam)on top of it is what you want.Reducing the amount of air that can escape "up" by convection will help to keep the pressure difference closer between inside and outside and so tend to reduce the overall draftiness of everything.Norm
I tried to talk my contractor (in San Francisco) into spraying foam; it was like I was trying to get him to eat a tennis shoe. No go; the most serious he will go towards sealing the envelope is solid foam sheets, with taped joints...
Oh well.
NotAClue
Another Clifford on strong island......
Does their website contain any "step-by-step" instruction on older window restoration? I've seen it done several times on different shows but I'm about to tackle 35 of them and would love to have a proven method to reference....
Thanks
Kevin
no, they do have window repair workshops on site. Try FHb # 161, repairing sashes; the post above are also pretty good. http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/fh_toc_161.asp
I seem to remember seeing a decent article, surprise, on the TOH website
Sounds good. Thanks for the tip. Are you a contractor on LI? I think we will have some work that I will not be able to attack myself....
Thanks Again
Kevin
LI contractor? Oh dear God no, LI is no place for a Red Sox fan :). Thanks for the thought.
Andy Clifford, who posted in this thread above, is on the island and is always looking for low-paying, thankless work :)
lol. That, also is good to know. I know I will have plenty of that for him. Do you know about where on the island he is? I should try and contact him to come see the house and offer estimates/opinions.
Thanks and enjoy the warm weather.....
ps. not a yankee fan either.
check on his profile (by clicking his user name on his posts). Cold Spring Harbor, I think
he's got a website also-
and of course I am joking about his work, he is well-respected in this forum so he's no fly by night "handyman"
Homeowner
I have a c.1790 farmhouse with drafty wood sash windows. I am currently weighing a few options.
1) Puchase relacement jamb liners and milling the sides of the sashes to fit them. I may also employ a method similar to bronze door flashing where the sash rails meet.
2) Making wood storm sashes to fit the exterior jambs. These would be insulated glass panels installed on the outside and weatherstripped allowing full view of the original windows.
3) using high quality relacement units.
In your case you might consider replacement units as the cost of deleading and prepping the existing sashes could get quite costly and may not provide results as good as new windows.
good luck
Hmmmm; possible, and we are thinking about it; I keep thinking that the old growth wood in the those frames and the antique wavy glass deserve another one hundred or more years if we can save them...
NotaClue
Notaclue
I echo your sentiments about the old windows. I dont want to trash mine either. You dont mention where you are. How critical is heat loss for you? I'm in SW NH and its been mighty cold as of late. My windows are a bit drafty and my heating bill needs a good weather tight solution.
There is a company called Window Masters here in Dublin NH that may have a solution for you. They do this sort of thing all the time. I think they do modify the sashes somewhat but they do lots of work on large historic buildings I think. I do know their aim is to keep as much of the old look as possible.
Is It ok to post a Ph. # here? If so i've got it handy and would be happy to give it to you.
I am currently tyring to solve this problem on my house so if I have any break throughs I'll be sure to update.
Thanks for the directly on-topic comments.
The only problem is that I am in Northern California (should have said that first)
Anyone have any references for me?
NotaClue
notaclue
I drive by Window Masters every day right now. I'll drop in on them in the next day or so and pose the problem to them. I'll Let you know what they have to say. They'll probably try to sell me their system but we'll see. I'll post here again in a couple of days Hope to have some more ideas for you.
Not sure what you mean by references, but here's some stuff you can refer to. http://www.conservationtechnology.comhttp://www.aresource.comBook - "Working Windows" - A Guide to the Repair and Restoration of Wood Windows..... by Terence MeanyKnowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Thanks to both of your replies!
Yes indeed, I am leaning toward saving the windows I can.
What I meant by resources (thanks for the web links) was a professional quality webpage on how to exactly weatherstrip the windows that a contractor and his staff might not bridle at.
The last experiences I had with contractors who said they knew what they were doing in this regard were unsatisfactory; I got the feeling they really didn't want to do what we wanted, even though we were paying cost plus profit and there was no squeeze on the dollars.
I am talking to a company in Oakland California, called Wooden Window Inc. (http://www.woodenwindow.com/about.html) that might be the ticket.
One can always hope.
NotAClue
Don't know if you have the disc set or get the mag, but the Nov, 1993 issue of JLC (Journal Of Light Construction) had an article by Gary Katz........Retrofit Weatherstripping with Silicone Bead.That's like the material you see on the Resource Conservation page I linked you to.Article compares the RC tool and bead and that from Weatherbead Insulation Systems. It might be in the research archives over there. http://www.jlconline.comKnowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Thanks, that's an excellent reference and no, I didn't know about it!
Therefore, I will get in touch and get the back issue (I don't think they sell piecemeal digitally from their archives, though I wish they would!)I think the routed in/cut in nylon pile/brush with a barbed channel is more likely to work in our application, if for no other reason than I can see how you could replace it when it wore down pretty easily!
NotAClue
Surprise!The article is there and you can buy it for $2.95Research........November, 1993 issue......scroll to article.......click on View PDF.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 2/3/2005 9:54 am ET by GOLDHILLER
I would encourage you to keep the old sashes as long as they are in good shape and square. This discussion has gone on here before regarding old windows vs replacements. In my opinion good, old sashes with high quality storms are every bit as effective as replacements. The window itself is not the weak spot but rather the perimeter of the installation. I have 1920s leaded glass windows that I have restored along the lines that you mentioned with stripping of the paint etc. Although I have done nothing as far as weatherstripping them I have seen several strategies thatseem to make sense. It seems to me there was an article in FHB not too long ago about the restoration of oldwindows where the author used a router to rout grooves in the sides of the sash in order to insert some sort of weatherstripping. Another interesting idea I read about regarding the weight pockets was to insert a piece of PVC with a large enough internal diameter to allow the weights to travel and then use some Great Stuff to fill the rest of the void. In my case new sash locks spaced properly to draw the sash tight along with good storms properly caulked has eliminated 80-90% of the drafts
Second vote for the Resource Conservation Tech. rout-in-place weatherstripping.
Also, this is a good book on the topic (click on title to get Addall results) :
Working Windows, Updated and Revised Edition: A Guide to the Repair and Restoration of Wood Windows
by Meany, Terence
ISBN: 1592287085
Publisher: The Lyons Press
Publish Date: 01 May, 2005
Binding: TRADE PAPER
List Price: USD 14.95
Having just done about 40 windows, and going about it all wrong, I think I can tell you lots of what NOT to do, and maybe a few things to do:
Try and hang onto your old windows. That said:
1. Be sure you do EVERYTHING inside and out, to each window as you go. Don't try to do the outsides, and then the insides. It just makes more work. I didn't, and boy do I regret it now.
2. Old windows with decent storms work fine, just try and seal the perimeter. But try not to have storms that are caulked into place. Something removable makes maintenance soooo much easier.
3. Once you decide what you want, draw up a detailed list and search for an old window specialist. In the list include everything that might be important to you. Such as, All products to be used in accordance with manufacturers instructions. Any replacement pieces to be the same wood species, profile, size, etc. (I should have required pre-approval of replacement pieces - silly me, I thought reproduce meant exactly). All glazing to extend exactly to the width of rail, style, moutons, etc. Primer and paint to cover glazing and 1/16" onto glass only. Glazing should not be visible from inside. Specify type of primer, paint color and how holes should be repaired.
4. Specify that upon reinstallation, all windows are to work as intended, regardless of their current condition. Contractor is responsible for proper weighting and spacing of stops, along with any repairs necessary to channels in sashes.
5. If you are not using paint on the interior I recommend looking at the Sherwin-Williams acrylic coatings, with TransTint coloring.
6. If there is a change in finishes between inside and outside, be sure to specify where the transition takes place between the inside and outside. I suggest the outside of the stop bead for the frame, and only the inside face and top of top rail on bottom sash for the interior.
7. If glass has to be replaced and you want the old wavy stuff, be sure to specify it, and maybe have a source handy.
8. If you want new sash locks or lifts, find them and have them ready. Specify their placement.
9. Specify that all screw holes to be filled and re-drilled.
10. Specify that all cord to be replaced with whatever is appropriate for your house. If cord, make sure it is actually cotton sash cord, not nylon.
11. Specify that ALL exposed surfaces (6 faces of the sash, tops, bottoms, and sides of trim) are to be finished. Traditionally, the top of the upper sash and the top of the window trim were often left undone. I don't think this is a good idea, but if it isn't coated now, the contractor might not do it either unless you specify.
12. Specify how any trim is to be installed, including filling of holes and caulking. Also check for any shifting (several of my windows don't fit correctly anymore because the nailing blocks have shrunk or something - brick wall construction).
13. Specify that the contractor is responsible for the windows until they are properly re-installed. If he/she breaks one they have to fix it.
14. Specify that if it is removed, it is reinstalled unless you give written permission for something to be left out.
15. Specify that missing pieces are to be replaced and with what.
16. If you have some type of metal weather stripping (or are planning on installing any) specify that all fasteners should be the same type of metal. With new stuff this shouldn't be a problem as the manufacturer will include the right nails. The problem comes with re-installing the old.
17. Specify what is to be removed, both in terms of window parts and finish. I suggest removing the sashes, stripping all finish from EVERYTHING, possibly replacing the stop bead if it has too many holes, removing each light and re-glazing. If you have any metal in place already, specify that it is to be removed and cleaned, and then reinstalled (or maybe replaced).
18. If any of the windows need to have tempered glass, specify it.
19. Think carefully about repairs to the wood. Will epoxy work? Wood filler? Or maybe dutchmen? Be sure to specify, or you won't get any repairs at all.
Here is a source for custom windows and storms:
http://www.adamsarch.com/
And one for metal weather stripping:
http://www.arcat.com/arcatcos/cos30/arc30091.cfm
Caulking all around the inside and outside (if appropriate) of the trim will stop much of the air flow in conjunction with properly installed metal channels. A fair amount of research has been done that shows single pane windows with storms, properly installed, are 90% to 95% as efficient as replacement windows.
I know the list is long, but I never cease to be amazed at what doesn't get done. Especially with remodeling work, it is too easy for things to get left out. Plus, after over 100 years, improper things could have been done and now is the time to rectify them, but you have to figure them out first. If you list every issue you can think of ahead of time, there shouldn't be any excuses for not doing something or doing it incorrectly.
And the most important point is the first one: do everything to each window as you go. Trust me, I did it wrong.
Great post! I'm bookmarking this for the day I tackle the windows in my old Victorian ... Thanks! Bill.
Holy Cripe!
I'm not worthy.
That might just be the single most useful post I've ever personally pulled out of Breaktime.
A very big thanks to you; this is will help me get this job done exactly right.
NotAClue
If you are willing to take the job on, you are worthy. Good luck, and you may want to hunt through the Old House Journal web site. There have been a couple of articles there.
Is condensation a problem on the inside of well fit & weatherstripped storms, since relatively warm and moist air is going to be leaking past the old windows and meeting with the cold storms? Or is the just part of the compromise that must be tolerated?
I think somethings will eventually shift, causing some air leakage, and condensation will get to be an issue. It's the main cause of deteriation on bottom rails and mutins. But I'm thinking more about the actual windows, not the storms. I suspect more moisture is created in homes now than back when these were built. And the moisture has to go somewhere.I don't know a complete answer, but it is something to watch out for.
I just installed a set of arched-top storm windows I built out of 5/4 pine, for a brick Victorian. They are sealed really tight, so I told the homeowners to let me know if they noticed significant condensation (not that I would be able to do much about it). I put the little pastic feet that are intended for chair legs on the bottom of the storms to maintain 1/8" air space below the storm to prevent bottom rail rot. I'll have to check back in 10 or 20 years to see if it works.Anecdotal evidence here supports the idea that well-sealed storms and old windows are effective at holding the cold at bay. The homeowners where I just installed the storms say that their house is signifigantly more comfortable and that they have been able to turn their thermostat down several degrees (just as I had hoped). That should translate into a nice drop in utility bills (no small thing in Minnesota).
My understanding is storms are supposed to have weep holes to allow moist air to escape. Otherwise the window frame may rot from condensation.
Sorry, I know the recent comments have been about storms, but maybe you can help me with the Marvin versus rehabbing all my windows question:
Marvin's architectual line (aluminum clad outside, wood/pine on the inside) of windows apparently doesn't come as replacement sashes; only there all vinyl clad line does.Therefore, to install the best Marvin's (the aluminum clad) into this 43 aperture Victorian means getting involved in all the siding outside...The GCs best guess was that with the need for scaffolding (4 stories) and so on, the cost of the Marvin's would be competitive to the wooden windows rehab, but the labor to install them would double the cost of rehabbing the sashes that I've got.
In new construction, apparently, this equation (Best, metal clad Marvin versus wood) would be a different calculation, because you're cutting, blocking, wrapping and finishing every aperture anyway...
So, does this idea (Marvin's end cost are twice the cost of the rehab) make sense to anyone?
Thanks!
NotAClue
Whats this about vinyl exteriors now? Go with the wood if you do replacement windows. Its actually an upcharge. Looks much much better.
Marvin offers several options in wood -an all wood replacement window w/4 9/16 jambs (which wont fit some openings due to jamb width)
Then they offer the "tilt pac," which is an all wood sash, with jamb liners. Like a window without a head or sill. Goes into your existing hole. Purists hate the look of the jamb liner. First option is much better.
Your problem is going to replacing the monster window you mentioned. Are the rest sort of standard (3'w x 5" h) ?
Google a search on wood replacement windows.Weathersheild does em too I believe. Pella has them also.
Yah, well the rest of the windows are sort of large too.
The typical double hung on the house is 36"X77"; the upper lights are fifteen divided over a single light below...
Some or many will need to be laminated (1/4" or 3/8" preferably) for acoustical dampening of the outside noise.One of the neighbors, very friendly people actually, have a Ducati 916 motorcycle---and it's only 35 feet away...the garbage trucks come through at 5:30 am on Thursdays and my wife doesn't need to be up that early....and on Saturday nights, every loud car cuts by on our street to avoid the jammed traffic one street over on the main drag....we're installing a dedicated heat pump/air exchanger just for the front bedroom so that we can have all the windows closed at the height of the summer without suffocating and without wanting to kill our neighbors...The Marvin replacement jambs sound interesting.
Vinyl liner? What does it look like? Is it convincing?
NotaClue
TILT PAC DOUBLE HUNG
View Image
View Image
View Image
View Image
The biggest one they make is only 5' tall-sorryView Image
Take all the solid construction and efficient performance of our Tilt Pac and put them into your existing window frame. The Marvin Tilt Pac is perfect when the frames of your double hung are still in good shape, but the sash needs replacement. It's designed to be cost-efficient, is easy to install and restores an old double hung with the added benefit of a higher-performance, energy-efficient sash. The Tilt Pac includes two wood or clad wood sashes and all the hardware necessary for installation.
Standard Features
View Image
14 degree sash bevel
Bare wood interior
Bare wood exterior (wood only)
Aluminum clad exterior (clad only)
Beige jamb hardware
Jamb mounting hardware
Satin Taupe Sash Lock
Clear, one-lite insulating glass
View Image
Tilt Pac Double Hung
Photo Gallery
Options
Sizes and Specs
CAD Drawings
Installation Instructions
View Image
View Image
The biggest one the make is only 5 feet tall?
Ah, the price of Glory for this building is going to equal the check I write to the window sub...
Oh well, it is meant to be.She's a grand old lady and she's really going to shine when that job is done!
And hey, I'm probably going to put a deserving contractor's kid through the University of California University System with those bucks...so it's all OK...NotaClue
NotaClue, I just read this thread, don't know if you've resolved this yet. I thought you might want some thoughts from someone across the bay...I've worked with these old double hungs quite a bit, and have really come to appreciate their basic design and function. I think that when folks around here opt to "modernize" these windows, they do so because they've never seen them working properly. After 70 to 100 years of paint buildup they get sticky or painted shut, and the cords break. Usually these problems go unaddressed. The window sees rough use until the joints weaken, the glaze fails and the whole thing begins to rattle and leak.
I grew up with these windows, but never saw them operate properly until I restored one myself. Stripped or sanded down, restrung and waxed, a large sash can be opened effortlessly with one finger. If the knot has been tied properly, the weights will pass each other without a sound, and if the pulley has been oiled, all you'll here is the gentle bumping of the sash against the sides. This "loose" feel will dissapear when the latch is turned, because it's carefully designed to force the sashes snugly apart vertically and then draw them together in the middle. If the hardware is in good shape, they won't rattle and are remarkably tight. These windows were designed to use no weatherstripping, but I've seen it applied on the outside where the bottom sash contacts the sill. This has to be done carefully so it doesn't interfere with the two sashes lining up.
Any heat loss at this point will be through the glass (which can be significant) and around the edgesin the weight cavities. I'm not sure what can be done about these, but be careful about how any changes you make (thicker glass, etc.) will affect the balance of the weights.
All of the work I mentioned can be done from inside, and without disturbing the trim (the factory-provided access to the weights is a cool feature, though it rarely gets used).
I'm saying all this because I think these windows are under appreciated. The pros/cons of the other options have been well stated, and newer designs definitely have the edge if sound and heat loss are big issues. The originals have lasted this long, though (you know why that glass is wavy? it didn't start out that way- it sagged with time!) -to me, that says a lot.
Well Saul, looks like we both agree.Interestingly, the thing that makes Marvins probably not a good idea for this house (my 122 year old house) is its age. It has, of course, settled throughout the years---so all the openings are gently out of square (you can be sure of that). Marvin replacement sashes are indeed available in a size larger than 5 feet tall---You just have to talk to the factory---but they will come perfectly square---and if they are clad in aluminum, well, then sizing them to those openings won't be any fun. I could reframe all the openings---but with 43 openings and the inevitably involvement of the outside siding if I went that route---well, I like my contractors, but I don't want to pay for all their kids orthodontia and college at once...I could always go with all wood replacement sashes, but I''m pretty sure I'm going to do the thing I was thinking of in the first place and restore the ones I've got. It'll be expensive, but the original sashes are beautiful old growth stuff---and hey, they fit this grand old lady of house! I mean, really, there aren't many 122 year olds you can put brand new clothes on and have them look right!I just wish it wasn't so bloody expensive.You don't happen to have a one stop recommendation for stripping, reconditioning, reglazing and reinstalling these windows in the San Francisco Bay do you? I've found David Grubb (Journal of light construction) and Wooden Window, Inc---I'd love to have one or two more bids... Ocean Sash was only up for new construction (and they do fine work) but that's not where I'm at either...Thanks!
NotaClue
>"...so bloody expensive."Yeah NC,
I've often marveled at what a costly luxury it is to be able to see out of a house.
Moneywise, owning an old victorian can be ####s--t sandwich; and with these windows you're gonna take big bite. 122 years, wow (East coasters won't be impressed, but for California, that's medieval!) makes me wonder how much of that "settling" happened in '06.
Sorry, I don't have any names for you. I've done whole-house window restorations myself, but Iike to work on site and am not in the business of HAZMAT removal.
I'm sure by now you're well versed in your options as far as who's availiable, so I won't bother recommending you try the yellow pages. Just wondering, in what condition do the sashes tend to be? Since conditions vary greatly around any house,
there are always those that are better than others. The reason I ask; removing all or that lead paint seems to be a huge part of the expense, and it will be a messy job. It's my understanding that inert lead paint poses no threat, if its sealed. would it be possibility to concentrate the removal effort only where moving parts make contact?
there are lots of products advertised for sealing lead. I know the end result won't be as nice (looks wise) as stripping, maybe the windows could be dealt with on an as needed basis.
Hey Saul, you've nailed it; I'm only going to remove the lead on the stops and frames where there's friction---but the entire set of sashes will be dipped and stripped (new glass, in some cases laminated glass for sound dampening, new glazing compound)....and then reprimed and reglazed; then finish painted with two coats out and one coat inward facing, then put back in, have the hardware installed, get touched up again, and off we go for another 122 years...BTW, some of the sashes are in extraordinary condition; they won't need any work at all; other's are a mess and might need to be totally replaced.NotaCluePS
Wouldn't bother with the lead except the 1) I've had the house tested; it's a lead dump around those windows 2) I have a 14 month daughter and lead dust is death to the developing brain and 3) we bought the house so we could have more (kids, not windows!)
Congrats.
Heres to a good outlook,saul
Congrats... We took the same route in our house, preserving as many of the old wavy-glass windows as we could. With a Harvey Tru-Channel storm in front, they work very, very well at keeping the cold out. Even on the coldest and windiest of days, our radiant floor heating system has no problem keeping up with the heat loss. If infiltration was high, we wouldn't be comfortable.In the addition, we stuck to wood-framed Marvin units. How well they hold up over time is probably directly related to how well we take care of them. There is no question that the newer windows do no benefit from the hard, old-growth wood that our 130-year old "OEM" windows did. It's a testament to original builders that with the exception of one window, all sashes were still in good shape despite wear and some neglect.IMHO, I would take a close look at the Harvey Tru-Channel stuff to preserve the older windows. They are not that expensive and may give you enough breathing room to repair the historic sashes at your leisure. Our home had nothing but the Harvey storms for a while...
Not a bad recommendation; I will surf into their site tonight.
Thanks!
Notaclue
Harvey is great, they have 2 or 3 different lines of storms, with tru-channel the absolute best, the air infiltration rate is outstanding.
But they sell directly only to builders with accounts with them, so if you are not in the trade anymore, it makes it a little harder (find a builder/friend who can order them); there are a few retail places where you can order Harveys, I know of a few in Mass, don't know where u at (hey, put a location in your profile already :)