What would be the best name brand to use for window glazing? Or should I use some type of different putty to reglaze and paint my older double hung windows?
Also is there a certain type of rope that is used for hanging the window weights? I have decieded since the windows are just older and are still viable and not leaking any air I would just freshen them up.
Any sites you know where I can get a how to on glazing?
Replies
Dap 33 glazing is the usual type of glazing. The rope is called sash cord.
DAP-33 works just fine - you can adjust it a bit with boiled linseed oil if it is too stiff, but be cautious -
sash rope is available at just about any hardware - it's cotton, soft and non stretching -
how to:
remove windows,
clean sash/frame thoroughly (soapy water/scrub brush),
pick out remaining glazing compound,
remove points (careful, no nicking the glass),
remove glass,
pick/scrape away glazing compound bedding bead,
soapy water/scrub brush/hose the sash,
dry thoroughly -
scrape/sand/whatever the painted surfaces,
prime all surfaces with boiled linseed oil, let set overnight, wipe any remaining oil off thoroughly -
paint, but don't paint the sliding area -
roll out the glazing compound and place so the glass will bed in it - use your putty knife -
install glass, work it into the glazing compound (bed) until there's ~1/16"or less of compound between the glass and sash (might be thicker some places if your sash has character) -
install points - if you have multible windows, check on buying a gun made for that purpose - you can use it for picture framing too -
work nice thick 'worms' of glazing compound into position - don't worry about being neat, be generous and use your putty knife to pack it in there -
use your putty knife to cut the compound to the nice consistant bead - the bead should not be thicker than the relief the glass sets in - this is the 'art' take your time, take multible passes, get it close but fat, then move on to another pane (assuming multible pane sash) -
get all panes close, then stand the sash up to near vertical on your workbench, and prop into place with something substantial - work on the inside, and cut any excess away from the bedding bead -
turn the sash around and start working on finishing the bead - remember you can turn the sash to any orientation that makes your job the easiest - nice delicate work now - smooth any rough areas, cut away thick spots, using the inside of the frame as your reference - a tiny drop of BLO will slick up any rough area as you delicately work with your putty knife in a tough spot -
doesn't have to be done in one hitch - you can leave the partly finished sash set for a number of days and come back and still be able to work the glazing compound -
which is the weak point of glazing compound - it remains soft for a long time - too easy to put fingerprints in it, and dirt will get trapped in the compound easily -
paste wax the sliding part of the sash and frame, lube the pulleys if they squeak, new cords -
reinstall -
I usually cut new parting strips - it's often difficult to save them as you remove the upper sash -
enjoy...
Edited 2/26/2007 11:16 pm ET by DavidxDoud
ya beat me to the button...lol
"As I was walkin' - I saw a sign thereAnd that sign said - no tress passin'But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!Now that side was made for you and me!" Woody Guthrie 1956
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I just recently finished refurbishing sash for the godzilla bank of windows -
but you've certainly got me for # of panes (or is that pains?)
I don't think I'll ever buy another 'thermopane' window - of the several I've bought over the years, there is only two that haven't 'failed', at least to some extent, and the 'newest' one (~12 yo) can't hardly be seen thru now - pizzes me off -
I cleaned the 'atrium' door that I bought in '82, an tho it's presentable, there is 'dirt' between the panes if you look close - bah!
"there's enough for everyone"
Did I say I HATEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE glazing??
Cept' ya can't just ask any helper to do it and ya know how much glaziers want to come to do it? ugh...and I know why.
Tell ya what sucked...Murphey's LAw here...The FIRST container I opened I tried putting on a perfectly prepared window and it kept pulling off.
Was blowing my mind...here I've framed just about the entire house...installed this that and more but I couldn't get the fickin' glazing on a window pane??? GAWDDDDDDDDDD...RETARD!!! Finally figured it out. That ONE container of glazing musta been old or something. It was a while since I last glazed and didn't realize that soup on top of the gazing in the container ain't a good thing...finally I mixed it up a bit and I was good to go...whewwwwwwww. Out of all the containers I used that first one had to be the only lemon...
"As I was walkin' - I saw a sign thereAnd that sign said - no tress passin'But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!Now that side was made for you and me!" Woody Guthrie 1956
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
those big containers can set around on the venders shelves long enough to become vintage themselves -
I do find that the compound toward the bottom of the can will be drier -
stuff sure is hard to stir...
I kinda like reglazing old worthy windows - but 720 panes would be daunting -
I've got one sash out in the door/window/shutter storage shed that is my favorite - not big, and just a 4 paner, but primitive made walnut frame - very sweet, in a pioneer sort of way - farm primitives are my style -
"there's enough for everyone"
Nice job, David!
One thing extra that I do is roll up a ball of Dap33 in Saranwrap and pop it in a microwave oven for 20 seconds - it is then nice and pliable.
Be sure to prime/paint it after it sets.
Thanks for the advice, I live in a 100-yr old house and am about to undertake the same project. I remember watching my grandfather glaze a window. He sure made it look easy - - I've found it isn't ;-)
He sure made it look easy - - I've found it isn't ;-)
the last sash will go a lot better than the first -
good luck -
"there's enough for everyone"
> DAP-33 works just fine - you can adjust it a bit with boiled linseed oil if it is too stiff, but be cautious -Some folks advocate mixing some japan dryer into the DAP33, to make it set to paintable consistency a little faster. In any event, the glazing compound must be "worked" (kneaded) a bit to make it flow more smoothly.A real expert, with everything prepared in advance, can glaze a pane in less than a minute, but the first one you try is apt to take most of an hour.I've always sealed the wood where the compound will go with shellac, but I can see that an oil/alkyd primer would probably work too. Whatever it is, though, it needs to be completely dry before you start.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
What type of paste wax is best for this application? What is the best way to apply it?
The window area is dark colored and I am going to make it a lighter color so I can have more brightness to the area was wondering if there is a best way to clean the inside of the window area?
What type of paste wax is best for this application? What is the best way to apply it?
I had to go look - I used 'Trewax' http://www.trewax.com
"If stained or dirty, clean surface thouroughly,. Apply a thin wax coat. Let dry only 5 minutes. Polish with a clean cloth."
it's a soft wax, easy to work with -
now, is it the 'best' wax?... har-har-har ...it wouldn't surprize me if this causes the thread to go off on a tangent - just like 'best' window glazing, I'm sure there are different products that will give good results -
...wondering if there is a best way to clean the inside of the window area?
there's that word again...
here's what I do - scrape any crusted crud/loose paint - -vaccuum while using a handled scrub brush to knock loose the dust/crud - I have a selection of brushes so to be able to reach into corners, etc. then a bucket of soapy water and those scrub brushes again - tape some plastic to the trim, a towel or two on the plastic at the floor, us a thick fine bristle brush that will hold water, sop up the frame area - scrub with stiff bristle brush, sop up water with rags at the bottom, wipe down with clean rags and clean water - let dry...
doesn't have to be particularly messy, and leaves you with a surface you can finish - again, if you have raw wood, I recommend you seal it with boiled linseed oil - the traditional sealer - a lot of 'primers' are basically pigmented BLO - but whatever -
clean and dry, then you work magic, however you choose -
"there's enough for everyone"
Is there a certain temperature that is necessary for removing glazing when using a heat gun?
Nope. Just the right temperature. This is no science, sir, this work is an art. You just have to do it, and eventually you'll learn the feel.
I think I read somewhere someone put a sash in their oven to heat it up, but I may be dreaming...
It depends on the type of glazing compound and its age. Older stuff will take more heat, and some stuff won't soften with a blow torch. (I can recall one window that someone had glazed using some sort wood putty like "Plastic Wood". Royal PITA.)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
what rasher and Dan said -
the key is patience -
something to consider;
take the sash to the car wash and see how much you can blast off with high pressure water - it will strip off loose paint, coal dust, catepillar cocoons, etc -
work around the glass/sash interface on both sides - work aggressively as you can without eroding wood - work around one sash, do the next, and next, then back to the first - if there is naked wood to soak up a bit of water, it will swell and tend to pop the glazing -
take the sash home, see if you can pick out the remaining glazing compound - one of those '6-in-one' putty knife like tool is handy - if there is a 'butt end' of compound showing, try to get between it and the sash - a tack hammer weight beating tool can be used behind the putty knife -
if you need to heat, it takes a time for the heat to migrate from the surface to the wood/compound interface, where the action it - I use a drywall knife to act as a heat sheild between the gun and glass - don't concentrate on just one spot -
experiment - anything you can do to get something to move will loosen the compound -
"there's enough for everyone"
I did my entire house with DAP33. 30-12 over 12's.
One important thing to know is that after you remove all the loose old glazing you should prime the old wood under it with an oil based primer before you reglaze other wise the new glazing won't stick right.
Just warm the glazing up in your hands rolling it into a golf sized ball or a lil' smaller. Use a glazing tool. Either side works. the straight knife side or the L shaped side. Play around with it till you get comfortable. Try and do it in one slow firm swoop pressing it good into the corner of the glass and wood.If you use the L shaped side the inside corner of the blade where its notched rides on the top edge corner of the wood.
It takes a good few weeks or better before you can paint it depending on the weather.
You can Google glazing and pull up a million sites.
I don't recommend caulking or the glazing in caulking tubes.
Also..if theres liquid in the container of glazing when you open it stir it up. Hopefully there won't be any liquid at all although I HAVE seen it in a cpl of containers.
You can lube up your knife with linseed oil but I personally think that's a waste of time.Just practice. Its like anything else...you have to get a feel for it. Be sure to warm up the ball of glazing too in your hands.
"As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!" Woody Guthrie 1956
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
If you have a lot of panes to do make a 16"X16" frame out of 1 X 6 drill 2 holes on opposite sides big enough to install 2 porcelin light sockets for 2-50 watt light bulbs put an 18"X18" piece of glass on top turn on lights and place glazing compound on glass to warm. This saves a lot of time and the compound will almost flow onto the sash with no bumps, lumps or cracks. I used to work in a door & window shop and the old glazier could do a 6 lite sash in less than 5 minutes he was an artist.
Your windows don't leak? Wow!
I wish I had your luck!
I have lots of double-hungs in my 1931 house - and all of them leak.
It has taken me 12 hours of part-time (off work) hours to get one set to the point where, except for the single glazing, they are as tight as a modern window.
Grab the smoke stick. You have some testing to do.
Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR Construction
Vancouver, Canada
I have heard, but have not tried myself, that Sherwin-Williams has brought out a new glazing called 66 that is supposed to have a longer life than the DAP 33.
Just in case it is not obvious, after you apply the glazing you should NOT be able to see the glazing from the inside of the window. The angle of the glazing is defined by the width and height of the mutin.
After the glazing has set for a day or so, prime with an oil based primer and then allow the paint to just barely overlap onto the glass. Just 1/32" or so, enough to seal the glazing.
And be sure to get real sash cord (or some people like to switch to chain). Real sash cord is generally cotton and will not stretch. If you have a lot of window to do, buy a spool of it. 500' I think.
You should check this to be sure I have it right, but I think the magic formula for length is: height of sash + height from rope hole to top of sash + 2 1/2". You want the weight to travel fully, but not bottom out.
I think the dept. of the interior has a pamphlet on glazing windows. Anyway, you can check the Old House Journal web site, it has been covered there a number of times. It might take some searching though. Or try searching the BT folders.
http://www.oldhousejournal.com/index.shtml
Good luck!
Thanks to you and everybody for the great help. I have alot of windows to do and was wondering how do I tell when I can primer/paint these windows? I dont want to be doing this months later. I thought I would pull 2 windows at a time glaze and primer and paint then reinstall but do I have to wait to have the glazing dry before priming?
The wifey discovered Glazol about 1/3 into our daunting window project. She ended up liking it much better. As far as I can describe, it's a little more "plastic" or "pliable" than Dap 33, and it set's up much faster. Ready for priming in only a couple of days instead of 1-3 weeks like 33...Set up your process to accomodate for glazing setup time. Do one window at a time and do only 1-2 windows per week. We end up spending about 1-2 hours a night, three nights a week, and our windows are nearly done 9 months later...No question about it. Glazing sucks. That is why crappy replacement windows are the rule and not the exception. However, after you have a job well done, you'll get another 100 years out of your windows while your neighbor will have replaced their vinyls 5-10 times...Also, consider using chain instead of rope. I've found chain installs a little faster, doesn't get dirty in the weight pockets, is easier to keep clean, and probably will never ever break.http://www.sashchain.com or something like that is where we got ours. It cost us probably only an extra $5-10 per window. Worth it in my book, and looks and sounds cool.Good luck to you. The wifey and I are finally looking at the end of our gruelling project and we won't be doing it again anytime soon!
Strickly speaking, the pulleys for chain and rope are a bit different. Chain pulleys have a little extra step in them. But I've never heard of chain not working in rope pulleys. Less sure about the opposite.
Rasher,
Did you use sash chain spirals and hooks (as sold at the website you linked) to attach the chain to the sash and weights? How well do they work?
I've always like the look of chain, but was never quite sure of how to easily (and reversibly) make those attachments.
Yeah, we used the spirals and hooks as sold on sashchain.com. The spirals work great if your holes are "tight". On some of our windows, the holes were kind of splintered out and I screwed the chain into the sides of the sash at a couple of spots (used the spiral to take most of the weight, though, too...). I couldn't figure out the correct way the hooks were supposed to install, so I pulled the chain through the eye in the weight, looped it back on itself and then used the hooks to securely tie the end of the chain back to the chain itself. Window operation is flawless and I'm condfident it will never come apart.
Thanks for the reply, Rasher.
I'll bet the window operation really *is* flawless. I really enjoy the old counterweighted systems because (once the old paint is removed), the sash goes up and down with less than one pound of force. As a mechanical engineer, I like smooth operation.
I was recently looking at some spec sheets for modern windows and noticed that for residential windows, it's OK for a new unit to require up to 25 pounds (!) of force to move the sash. For light commerical and industrial, the allowable required force is even higher.
You're right. Open up the sash locks and one finger up and down will do it...
If you use a water based primer or paint, then yes you have to wait for the glazing to completly dry, which might be as much as 3 weeks. That's the advantage of using oil based primers and paint for windows, you can paint as soon as it skins over. Something where the solvents are compatible. The glazing can should tell you what to do.One trick is to use a spray bottle of turpentine (or mineral spirits) to mist the glazing for the very LAST pass with the glazing knife. Make sure the knife is clean (you can even mist it with the mineral spirits) and do a final run around the window. This smoothes out the glazing and it seems to skin over faster. Might just be perception though.
Ok here is what I was thinking of doing. Living in CHicago we have daytime temps of 30'S low in the teens. I have storm windows on all my windows and figured I could leave the storms as protection and start reglazing a couple a windows at a time. If I reglaze and let it dry for a day them wait to paint in the spring when I take the storms off and paint the outside completely I would then primer and paint the glazing.
With the temps in Chicago will the glazing ever cure so I can put them back and follow my idea of finishing or am I asking for trouble with the glazing never curing and having the glass fall out on me?
I'd like to start now so that possibly I can get the windows done at a faster rate than having to wait til the weather breaks.
Try this instead: (our process)
1. Our storms were pretty tight, but I installed EPDM weatherstrip all around (except for the lower corners to allow air/moisture to escape)
2. We've tore out 2-4 windows (4-8 sashes total) at a time, leaving the storms up. In old DH window systems, the storms were always the air-resistant component of the system, anyway. Our house was not significantly more drafty or colder this winter, and our heating bills have not been much worse. This indicates that our old windows were already not doing much to keep air out.
3. We took out all of the glass carefully ad scraped our windows down to bare wood, or had a window shop fabricate replacement wood sashes exactly to the same dimensions/specs as the old windows.
4. Now you've got a clean wood sash to deal with. We primed both inside and out and the sides with Benjamin Moore Fresh Start Alkyd Exterior Primer. (Apparently this exterior primer has fungicides that the interior primer does not) Then sanded the primer back down smooth.
5. Then, with no glass in the sashes, we painted the INTERIOR faces and muntins with Benjamin Moore interior paint, two coats and sanded to finish. Leave the edges of the sashes alone.
6. Then, cover your work table with soft cloth (to protect your new interior paint) and bed, point, and glaze (with Glazol) all of the glass. Set aside in your nice warm house for 2-4 days.
7. After the Glazol has set up (can be as soon as 1 day), paint exterior paint on the exterior face. The best thing about Glazol is that is DOES NOT need to be primed. Slop the paint onto the glass. After two coats have dried, just get a metal ruler and some razor knives and trim the paint.
8. Sand the primed (BUT NOT PAINTED) edges smooth and then apply a quick coat of wax (Briwax or Trewax).
9. Reinstall the sashes with chain. We installed spring bronze weatherstrip in the jamb at the bottom sash and self-adhesive vinyl "V" weatherstrip on the exterior face of the parting bead at the upper sash. We also installed weatherstrip at the bottom of the lower sash, a weatherstrip at the exterior face of the parting rail of the lower sash and a weatherstip at the top of the upper sash. The spring bronze in the lower looks great and helps keep the sash centered in the jamb and sliding nice and smooth.
10. Done!This method of painting the interior face first saved us LOTS of time trying to cut in the muntins after the glass was installed.Don't get me wrong, this approach still takes lots of time. Enjoy! Of course, we had to also strip about 120 years of paint from the jambs and the casings. We also stripped, cleaned and buffed all of the pulleys. We had rope before and installed new chain and it works fine in our pulleys.
I wouldn't leave the glazing exposed that long. See what the manufacturer says in terms of temp. and waiting.Rasher makes good sense, except for sloppping paint on the glass. Yes, you can scrape it off, but you risk scratching the glass. If you paint carefully and don't get paint more than about 1/32" onto the glass, you won't risk scratching the glass.
Just a quick question--How much coverage does Dap 33 give so I know how much to buy to do 17 dh windows that are 27 1/2 x 27 1/2? Does anyone know how to calculate so I can buy enough in one trip?
Thanks all
That's an interesting question. I would think it could be calculated by volume. Assume that the glazing is a right angle triangle in cross section, with the height equal to the height of the mutin minus the thickness of the glass, and the width the other part of the mutin. Figure the area of that triangle, and multiply by the number of running inches for each type of windown you have. Multiply by the number of windows of each type. Then add about 25% for the bedding glaze, then about 20 to 30% for wastage. Then convert from cubic inches to gallons (1 cubic inch = 0.5541 liquid ounces)Last time I got some, the only choices were gallon or quart. But there might be more now. And it isn't all that expensive. If you figure it is about a gallon, then buy a gallon and a quart, you can return the quart if you don't use it. On the other hand, if you get into the multiple gallon range, then I'd start with a gallon, and just pick up another as needed.
Thanks for the advice. What is the best way to remove all the old glazing without damaging anything?
Wear safety glasses. I use a Wagner heat gun to soften the old glazing.. Keep it moving. I do all four edges in three laps. Look for any separations and use the heat and a putty knife to remove the old stuff starting at the separation. If you are going to reseat the pane remove the points next and slowly work the pane loose. It should come free since it will still be hot. Do not heat any one area for a long time or you will crack the glass. Good luck and don't burn yourself or scorch the wood.
heat and a scraper knief..
don't bother with the Prazi glazing cutter.. Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
There is a tool that consists of a rotary cutter blade and guide that you can use with an electric drill to remove the glazing. Don't know how well it works.I would guess that shops that do a lot of this use a router or RotoZip or some such, with some sort of jig.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
As far as heat guns go I have heard that a Milwaukee 8988-20 is good but almost a glorified hair dryer and that a Steinel heat gun HL1502 is the best for heat control any opinions?
I know that the "homeowner" heat guns were "dumbed down" about 20 years ago, so they would be less likely to start fires. You definitely need a pro unit to be effective. Don't know about any specific models.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Just got the HL1502S - So much for being able to strip paint. The first setting with is supposed to be 120 degrees can only get up to 85 degrees.
How hot do need to peel paint surely not 85 degrees? Is there a problem with this crap. They say it has 4 settings -Duh- 3 settings and off. I might as well use a hair dryer.
Any other suggestions for getting the paint off? Different gun? This is definitely going back when the store opens tomorrow.
Like I said, they've been dumbed down.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I think the temperature ratings for heat guns must be something like heat at the coil. No way does the temperature of the air coming out of the gun approach what is specified, even on the best guns.The good Milwakee gun is worth the money. I got the one with variable heat from 1100 to something like 450. I know it doesn't come out that hot, but it does get plenty hot. And it is very light to hold.
The numbers listed are generally watts, not degrees. And temp is dependent on both watts and airflow rate.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Looks like degrees to me.http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/103-7067195-8032634?url=search-alias%3Dgarden&field-keywords=milwaukee+heat+gun&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
Yeah, those would appear to be listing degrees, though I have a little trouble believing the 1040 degree number is real vs theoretical.Most cheaper guns will have numbers on the switch that are watts, though.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I imagine it is something like EPA mileage ratings. Heat at the coil or something. No way it's 1100 actual air temp coming out of the nozzle.
Am I the only person still using a propane torch to soften old glazing? For many years, that was the tried-and-true method from what I have read. I use an old trowel as a heat shield to protect the glass, and a very low flame on the torch.
The sash, of course, are flat on a workbench, and the work is done in a well-ventilated area ... ideally outside, but usually in my barn workshop.
Much of my work has been the "harvesting" of antique glass, so scorching the sash isn't a huge concern. But when I'm restoring the existing sash, I'm careful to heat the glazing only to point where it can easily be removed with a putty knife.
Still, if there's a heat gun that actually works, I'm hoping someone posts the brand name and where it can be purchased.
Allen
I just removed glazing from two old storm windows using my old 12" soldering iron. It worked great. No more broken glass from torch. Thanks to whomever gave that tip.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Perhaps the 1040 degrees reading was achieved by using the heat gun while the ambient temperature was, say, 800 degrees.
Just wait for a really hot day, then get out the heat gun. Good times.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
that's the Prazie...
it ranks right in there with the Bammer and PC / Ryobie detail sander...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Geez everybody here is old school. I don't use window putty any more. Too messy, to slow and takes FOREEVER to dry. Now I use this...
http://www.advancedrepair.com/glazing/glazing.htm
It is not putty in a tube. It is much more advanced. It tools nice (but just do it once cuz it skins over) stays a little flexible so it wont crack over time. And it dries over night so you can paint the sash the next day. Also can be applied in field easy peasy.
It tools nice (but just do it once cuz it skins over)..
I ain't that good -
"there's enough for everyone"
Greetings,
I first scraped, sanded, reglazed and repainted (primer and two top coats) the wooden double hungs on my family home when I was a teen-ager. Did a fine job but didn't find much satisfaction in it. It also too a LOT of time, about eight hours/unit, total. That exemplary job stood up for about ten years, well after I'd moved out. Sixteen units times eight hours divided by ten years= about thirteen hours per year on window refinishing.
When my sister an I inheirited the house we chose to replace the old windows. I figured I could easily install vinyl replacement windows at a rate of one per hour at a cost of about $200-$225/unit (Milgard single hungs, insulated glass). It's been a very good decision and an excellent investment. It's much quieter and energy efficient. And there's no more reglazing and very little refinishing to do.
I don't disagree with your decision to purchase replacement windows. However the replacement windows may not last as long as the glazing you installed. I'm in the real estate industry and I have gone through a lot of houses. I have seen a lot of replacement windows that fail at 5-10 year old. You have to factor in the cost and labor of replacing the replacements.
Just a thought.
<<I don't disagree with your decision to purchase replacement windows. However the replacement windows may not last as long as the glazing you installed. I'm in the real estate industry and I have gone through a lot of houses. I have seen a lot of replacement windows that fail at 5-10 year old. You have to factor in the cost and labor of replacing the replacements.
Just a thought. >>
Mike,
Thoughts don't equal experience...or a lifetime warranty. Glazing, even using the best products, like DAP, doesn't hold up anything like modern plastics Milgard, the window manufacturer I mentioned, offers a full coverage lifetime warranty on their products. Here's a link, if you care to read it:
http://www.milgard.com/about-milgard/full-lifetime-warranty.asp
<<Thoughts don't equal experience...or a lifetime warranty. Glazing, even using the best products, like DAP, doesn't hold up anything like modern plastics Milgard, the window manufacturer I mentioned, offers a full coverage lifetime warranty on their products. Here's a link, if you care to read it:>>
Experience? How many homes have you been in in your lifetime? I've been in thousands as I'm an appraiser. In my EXPERIENCE a large percentage of the plastic replacement windows fail before they are 10 years old.
Experience? Before my current house I lived in a 5 year old home. Before I sold it 3 years later 1/2 of the vinyl windows had broken seals. I spell vinyll windows C-R-A-P
Experience? I have a 120 year old house with original windows. Do you have vinyl windows that old? How about a vinyl window over 70 years old? 60? 50? 40? 30? How much lower do I need to go? Enough said.
Sorry to get testy, but your post got under my skin. Hope the house is sold before the window seals brake and the glass clouds up.
I agree. My 50+ year old Andersens are glazed and I love them. I reglazed and refinished them three years ago. They glide easily and do not sweat. Others in this area with aluminum or vinyl complain about sweating and air leakage. Years ago I had some high-end double insulated vinyl-clad wood ones that sweated from November to March. Plus the flimsy latches offered no security. I am glad I rebuilt the Andersens instead of replacing them.
My 50+ year old Andersens are glazed and I love them.
Can you tell me more about your 50-year old Andersens? Are they single glazed? Do they use Duplex counterbalances? What species of wood, etc.?
Clear white pine. No springs or counterweights. They have thumb actuated "parking brakes" to release them for movement. Let go and they stay there. For cleaning, operate the levers and slide over one inch and pull them free. Simple and well built. I haven't seen any of these on anything but other 50 year old ranches.
Sounds like a pretty neat product -- I have never seen any of them, but I primarily work on pre-1940s houses.
With no counterbalance, I imagine the sash would have to be kept on the small side -- otherwise weight would become more of an issue. Some of the Victorian-era homes I've seen had spring-actuated pins that held the sash in several preset positions -- kind of like holes for adjustable shelves.
Because there is very little friction they move very easily. When the levers are released the brakes push the sash tight against the frame. Very little movement, no air leakage. I wish I could remember the name of the model. A window contractor friend advised me to never replace them. He mentioned the model name but being old I forgot. ;-)
86359.47 in reply to 86359.42
<<Thoughts don't equal experience...or a lifetime warranty. Glazing, even using the best products, like DAP, doesn't hold up anything like modern plastics Milgard, the window manufacturer I mentioned, offers a full coverage lifetime warranty on their products. Here's a link, if you care to read it:>>
Experience? How many homes have you been in in your lifetime? I've been in thousands as I'm an appraiser. In my EXPERIENCE a large percentage of the plastic replacement windows fail before they are 10 years old.
Experience? Before my current house I lived in a 5 year old home. Before I sold it 3 years later 1/2 of the vinyl windows had broken seals. I spell vinyll windows C-R-A-P
Experience? I have a 120 year old house with original windows. Do you have vinyl windows that old? How about a vinyl window over 70 years old? 60? 50? 40? 30? How much lower do I need to go? Enough said.
Sorry to get testy, but your post got under my skin. Hope the house is sold before the window seals brake and the glass clouds up.
No need to appologize. I enjoy baiting guys like you. An appraiser you are, are you? Wow. Stand back all you tradesmen. There's an appraiser on the board.
But thanks for making my point so nicely. If you prefer to spend an average of a day and a half of your free time...every year...standing on a ladder while scraping, sanding, reglazing and repainting old wood windows (not to mention the time required annually to install and remove wooden storm windows, another loathsome task) then be my guest. I'll happily take the results I'm enjoying from installing quality vinyl window units, made and warranteed for the life of my home by a very large and successful American corporation.
As a carpenter, who never rose to the exhalted rank of appraiser, I'd prefer a wooden replacement window but that solution requires a lot more money and time, about five times the amount spent on the Milgard units I installed. Like most old homes, this one simply doesn't merit that kind of investment. So I'm satisfied that my free time and saved money are well spent in other, recreational, pursuits.
Thanks again for helping make my point.
Edited 3/8/2007 5:38 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Sounds like the your heat gun is junk. I borrowed one of those really expensive ($90) Milwaukee guns from a buddy and it gets good and hot. The wifey has one of those little Wagner ones and it's nothing but a hair dryer. A good gun will get that paint good and hot. It DOES take some time though, you have to hold the heat on the paint for awhile. One the paint starts to bubble up, you're ready to scrape, and once you've got an edge loose and the scraper going, you can keep moving. I use a 5-in-1 painters tool with the edge briefly sharpened on a stone. I would say I can get about 24-48 inches of paint per minute, but it's kind of hard to say. It's more of an art that a science.One thing I'd say about using a heat gun to loosen up paint is that it's not as dangerous as people might lead you to believe. I hold the heat on a good long time to get the paint nice and loose and I have yet to crack a peice of glass or start a fire.
You can fairly easily scorch the wood, though.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
An appraiser you are, are you? Wow. Stand back all you tradesmen. There's an appraiser on the board.
Hudson,
I'm a fellow tradesman, but I'm not going to side with you on this one. I think you're acting like a jerk.
As an appraiser, Mike has probably been through a lot more houses than we have. That's not to say that he knows how to install a window, or how to fix one, but he definitely can tell whether a window has fogged up or not -- it doesn't take any special pedigree to make that observation.
People come to this discussion board to share ideas and experiences. The fact that there are people here from different walks of life is a good thing -- it results in a broader perspective from which we can all benefit.
Step back a bit and realize that you might just be able to learn something by listening to opinions that differ from your own.
No need to appologize. I enjoy baiting guys like you. An appraiser you are, are you? Wow. Stand back all you tradesmen. There's an appraiser on the board.
Does somehow being a dick prove your point? The guy said that he was an appraiser, does that somehow diminish what he's seen?
I prefer old wood windows to vinyl myself but I also live in a late 1800's home and there will never be vinyl in it unless I'm gone or sell it.
Once the windows are reglazed you dont have to do it every year, cant imagine why you'd think that.
The time it takes to change out the storms is about equal to the time one would spend on here at any givin setting so I guess thats just a choice one would make, my thinking is changing out the storms might even be a better use of time.
Obviously if your in the business of installing replacement windows then its easy to see where your comming from.
You dont have to be a tradesmen to have an opinion on this subject, hell it doesnt even make you more qulified to answer question regarding it.
Doug
To add another point on the chart:We have a house built in 1976 with Andersen all-wood double-pane casement windows. It took about 10 years to get a good coat of paint on them (you really have to paint them, wait 5 years, then strip off all paint and factory primer to get a good bond), but having accomplished that they need minimal maintenance.We have had trouble with the plastic sealer strips on the bottoms of the sashes coming loose, but otherwise no real maintenance problems.I can see no compelling reason to replace these for probably another 20-30 years. They need a coat of paint every 10-15 years, but that's about it. They could seal tighter, but we've discovered that most of the infiltration we experienced was coming around the windows through the rough frame opening (and we fixed that). I'm sure that if we paid to have them replaced we'd be going backwards in terms of infiltration.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
My time to take out my storms is ZERO. I don't remove my wood storms, I installed metal "Storm Window Adjuster" arms that allow the storm to swing out from it's clips at the top and the arms hold it in place.Google "storm window adjusters" and they'll come up. They also double as a second layer of locking in the window system when the storms are locked closed and they pull the storm in tight against the weatherstrip.Bonus: The house looks really cool with all of the storms kicked out in the spring and fall.Double Bonus: When we fire up the AC in the summer, we close the storms up tight again for more energy savings.Check 'em out. I think it's less than $12 per window, IIRC...
<<No need to appologize. I enjoy baiting guys like you.>> Guys like me?? Do you know me?? There is no need to attack me personally just because we disagree. Relax.<<But thanks for making my point so nicely. If you prefer to spend an average of a day and a half of your free time...every year...standing on a ladder while scraping, sanding, reglazing and repainting old wood windows>>I can see why you might not enjoy the job if your trying to paint windows from a ladder. I remove the stop and take the sashes out and paint then on a work bench. Much easier that way. My storms have a rubber gasket and fit tight, so I can even remove the sashes in the Winter if I need to. <<(not to mention the time required annually to install and remove wooden storm windows, another loathsome task)>>I have traditional wood storms that have not been removed since they were installed. They have screens and glass storm inserts that are removed from the inside. Again no ladder involved. Most folks with older homes have metal storms that are permanently installed. << I'll happily take the results I'm enjoying from installing quality vinyl window units, made and warranteed for the life of my home >>I'm glad you are happy with you decision to by plastic windows. I hope they last a long time. And I hope the company honors the warranty when the seals break. I'm sure you have a warranty with absolutely no exlusions. <<As a carpenter, who never rose to the exhalted rank of appraiser>>Again with the person attacks. As adults can't we have a civil conversation without resorting to such attacks? I was responding to your comment about me not having experience by explaining that I have been in a lot of homes and seen a lot of vinyl windows in bad shape. Rather then addressing the content of my point, you attack me personally. Why? << I'd prefer a wooden replacement window but that solution requires a lot more money and time, about five times the amount spent on the Milgard units I installed >>I agree in the short term the vinyl windows are more economical. But over the lifetime of the wood windows how many vinyl replacements will be needed? I don't know the answer. No one does since vinyl windows do not have a long enough track record. Which is the point I was trying to make. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does vinyl eventually break down in sunlight? On the other hand, wood windows have demonstrated that they can be servicable for hundreds of years. << Thanks again for helping make my point >> Although you and I disagree on many points I have still enjoyed the conversation, other than the personal attacks. I hope you enjoy your weekend. Mike K
<<Although you and I disagree on many points I have still enjoyed the conversation, other than the personal attacks. I hope you enjoy your weekend. >>
Presuming that your knowledge is superior, then avoiding and/or dismissing the evidence I presented in my first post... asserting that vinyl windows are a logical answer...just because you've walked through a larger number of houses than I've worked on is sure to bring some mild sarcasm from me. If you want to characterize my playful baiting techniques as personal attacks, that's your right, but you attacked first.
Playful sarcasm/banter is part of my working day, every day. We zing each other whenever an opportunity presents itself. It's one way to stay mentally alert and in a balanced state while at work.
So welcome to the world of New York carpenters.
Edited 3/2/2007 11:23 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
That, and replacement windows don't look like the original and never pay back in energy savings. Even the best window is still a hole in the wall, energy wise. A good old wood double hung with a storm window will equal or exceed the energy savings of the best new windows.
Re the sash cord: Best, of course, is to install spring balances. There are several different types available. Also, instead of cord some folks favor chain. If you stick with sash cord, a polyester (Dacron) cord is best, if you can find good quality stuff. If you have a place that caters to sailboaters, they would have the good stuff.
Re the sash cord: Best, of course, is to install spring balances.
To what type of spring are you referring, and why do you think they are best?
Well, the "OK" ones are various types of extension springs that install in a slot routed in the edge of the window, but the "best" are cartridge springs that look and operate a bit like a tape measure:http://www.pullmanbalances.com/
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan,
I've never actually used the Pullman springs, but I've heard good reports about them. They seem to have a good track record, and they supply a (very nearly) constant force in resistance. And, like you pointed out, they don't require a counterweight chase, so there's more opportunity to insulate. As far as mechanical wear, I've heard a few people say that the metal tape can get kinked, but it sounds like it's a rare event.
As far as the extension springs, I avoid them like the plague. The reason is that the resistance supplied by an extension spring VARIES linearly with deflection. That is, the more you pull, the more resistance you encounter. Due to this VARIABLE counterforce, the sash is typically either over- or underbalanced. That's why it's necessary to introduce lots of friction with this type of system -- without lots of friction, the sash would just move by itself up or down. Even *with* all this friction, modern sash have a tendency to stay out of balance, and a person typically has to really get their back into it to either open or close them.
As I was mentioning to Rasher in an earlier post, a counterbalanced system will allow the sash to be raised or lowered with literally fingertip control. This is simply not possible with extension springs due to their design characteristics.
Edited 3/1/2007 3:02 pm ET by Ragnar17
Yeah, the extension springs are definitely less satisfactory, and they all need to rely on friction to a significant degree. But there's considerable variation between the various styles (depending in large part on how long of a spring they manage to incorporate).(I don't have any experience with the retrofit units either, but have read descriptions/evaluations of them from time to time. Have seen a lot of different extension-spring-balanced windows, though, and noted the wide variability in ease of use based on balance design.)(And I used to play with some Pullmann units when I was a kid. They stood up to my play, suggesting that they're pretty good.)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I think I'm going to finally order some of the Pullman springs on a porch enclosure I have coming up. Windows will be filled in between existing columns, and there's just not enough room in the columns for counterweights. Actually, there's not really enough space for the Pullman units, either, but they offer an overhead variant that looks like it will work.
You said you played around with the Pullman units when you were a kid. Is the steel tape sharp at all on the edges?
I still have all my fingers. I vaguely recall that the edges of the tape were remarkably unsharp.Of course, we're talking about a unit produced 50 years or so ago. Hard to say what the quality of a new unit is.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
And they're better than sash weights because they allow you to stuff the weight cavity with foam or fiberglass insulation, plus there's no cord to wear out.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Bad advice, spring balances. I assume you mean the retrofit vinyl inserts. They are all junk. The springs and parts break and then you're out of luck. The one-finger up and down that pulleys and counterweights give you cannot be had with spring balances.Install a good wood storm window that's nice and tight with weatherstrip and you won't have any air infiltration problems. Believe me.
Rasher,
See the other posts from DanH. He's primarily talking about the clock-spring type counterbalances (not the extension springs used in block and tackle arrangements).
Here's a couple of sites. First one is pics with text and second is a video that pretty much requires a HS broadband connection.
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/12216.shtml
http://flash.kmi.open.ac.uk:8080/fm/fmm.php?pwd=444f34-4846&jt=00:33:30.86
I use the striking technique like the first guy; knife blade setting parallel to the joint rather than perpendicular like the guy in the vid does. I also use an offset glazing knife (has a kink in it) rather than a straight blade. Either will work, but I find the offset to be more ergonomic over the long haul. (Your blade needs to shine like mirror to work easiest/best)
No need to make snakes. Waste of time, IMO. Watch the vid, if you can. Grab a hunk in your hand, stuff wads along side one another, pressure pack with knife blade perpendicular to edge of frame, strike off the joint. Blade pressure and angle of attack are key to ease and success. Practice makes perfect. It's like learning to ride a bike; once you get it, it's easy.
I'll recommend SarcoSeal compound over any other traditional types. It's what the glass shops here use and ours has lasted 19 years now thru freeze-thaw cycles without any signs of failure yet. I used their gray product (not sure what designation that is), but it's good for both metal or wood sash. Is primable (and should be) in 2-4 days with an OB primer (as soon as it skinned over). Dap 33 can't compare with it in terms of longevity. (The guy in the vid describes Dap 33 as "better than nothing", Glazol as okay, but uses SarcoSeal in the demonstration. I agree.)
Edited 3/1/2007 12:01 pm ET by HootOwl