My former-engineer uncle is building a shop behind his house to pursue a new career path, said he needed a hand finishing off the exterior. Fine, I say I’ll swing by and we can get started on a few things while waiting for the materials to show up. Long story short: We spent today putting up TSP washed re-primed pre-primed biscuit joined trim with spacers, clamps and pre-drilled evenly spaced (MEASURED!) nail holes. HE will be setting all nails and filling holes before re-priming and finally painting. I am fairly meticulous about my work but was speechless when he described the “approach” he wanted to take. The cap of the day was as he was driving the last nail home over the centerpiece of the shop (a 16 foot 4-panel sliding door unit) and the hammer deflected unto the aluminum casing leaving a nice-sized dimple. Needless to say, further solicitations of advice or assistance on this job will be politely refused.
So am I just a hack or was this ridiculous?
Replies
I've found engineers to be difficult clients, they take the term over-engineer to new heights when it's their home.
I'll second that spent 18 months trimming a basement for a engineer, did I say 18 months yup. Needless to say it was hourly so we could mentally masturbate every decision for every detail.
some days I would spend all day just making and changing mockups !/4" here 2" there.
Alot of the guys couldn't work with him, but my father was just the same way so it was alittle easier for me, as I had 30 years of preconditioning.
The end result was stunning, but the labor hours were staggering, but hay it was his dime and and I was paid very well.
Today he is still a good client and his referrals have kept me very busy. Would really hate to have to work for a engineer thats trying to do it on the cheap. He never ever bitched about the time to accomplish anything, and hardly ever went ga ga over something that was very intense in details and really took some craftmanship to perform. But thats who he was and the sooner you accepted it, you weren't looking for the atta boys.
You just have to grin and bear it. Being an engineer myself, being anal is part of the enjoyment of working on a project. It's how we satisfy our creative energies.
It's a good thing engineers are anal. Would you want to fly an airplane, buy a car, or cross a bridge designed by someone who wasn't?
Ifn your getting paid by the hour
I don't see a problem, if that is the way he wants it done.
it goes both way, last week I was helping a engineer build his house, nothing to code. His reply was if the county dont like it, I stamp it myself.He poured his concrete on top of grass, no fill, no subbase.no footers
He claimed he did not need footer because he sunk the corner poles two foot down. He building a 100k house like a pole barn.
Oh man, that's bad. I'm a licensed civil engineer, and I'm going the other way while building. I have a pretty decent background in commercial and industrial construction, and swung a hammer for a few years through college, so everything in my house is overengineered. Just the basement, for an example: 1' x 3' footings on undisturbed earth, 8" ICF walls with 4000 psi crete (and my own mix design), heavy bituminous waterproofing membrane, basement slab is 5" concrete, nylon fiber AND mesh, radiant tubing 12" o.c., on top of 12" of crushed stone, footing drains all around and to daylight, steel beams and floor trusses at L/720, etc. etc. The whole house is progressing this way. There are NO shortcuts allowed, and everything WILL exceed code.
I want the best and I'm willing to pay for it, either through someone else's labor or my own, and the best materials I can get. I want this house to last 200 years or more, and given today's technology (and PROPERLY APPLIED), why shouldn't it?
He building a 100k house like a pole barn
Hey, nothing wrong wit hliving in a pole barn--iffin yur livestock, that is . . . <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I prefer to snap lines at each stud, use a square to line up and mark the nails for siding. Typically these nails are left exposed. People might not realize what makes it so nice.
Of course not every client can afford (or requires) this level of detail.
I have been called anal and a freak by many of my working compatriots but I have been successful at what I do.
Wood is Good
Adam Greisz
Is "anal-retentive" hyphenated or not?
- a Civil/Environmental PE with tongue in cheek
ROFLOL!
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Be carefull which cheek your tongue is in when on the subject of anal retentive, LOL
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Funny story ... but I don't get the point about the dimple in the aluminum.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
I love inspecting homers owned by engineers, hate doing inspections for engineers (especially recent grads where Dad, also an engineer, comes along to "observe" <G>)
I resemble that remark as both my son and I are engineers, and I helped my son buy a home in the $350k-$450k range this year in Greenville SC. The homes we rejected included:1. one where the front yard drained under the front of the house cause the builder did not take off another 4 inches of soil and grade it to the street. Buckled hardwood floors. Realtor saw no problem. One room had floor out of level by 1 inch - wives noticed it - it was that bad.2. Similar house where entire 3/4 acre back yard drained under house. house was also masonite sided- realtor said it was a great building material, just needed to be protected from moisture (yeah I agree about the water)3. The locked crawl space house where there was 28% moisture in the wood and white mold everywhere (please refund the purchase deposit, thank you). I do not deal with engineers in a construction sense- but I personally try to tell people what is important to me up front at the start of the job- usually nits like: please use galvanized nails on the exteriotr trim, or attach the metal HVAC unit to the duct work with screws not just duct tape, or please use an electrical panel box that leaves at least one spare circuit breaked space when wiring is finished. Going back to that spacing out of the nail locations- what tolerance was he using?
I worked as an engineer for several years before setting out on my own, and I've had similar reactions from guys I hire to do work. Although most know what they're doing in the specifics of their trade, I've noticed they have trouble seeing the big picture. For example I spec'd some footings for a shed that would hold equipmeny I use in my work. The size of the holes, the placement of rebar, concrete mix, etc. all were called out. When I inspect the holes before the pour, half of my list of specs was ignored or modified. I ask why, and they guy comes back with "It's just a shed, that's the way you really need to do it."Now I could spend a half-hour explaining to him all the details and reasons for why I designed the footers that way, but that's wasting time for both of us. And the last thing I want is this guy talking to his buddies at the bar about the expensive equipment some nut is installing in a shed. You can imaginge what that might lead to.I suppose GCs run into this all the time where subs "adjust" the statement of work because _they_ know what they're doing.
I suppose GCs run into this all the time where subs "adjust" the statement of work because _they_ know what they're doing.At least three times today.
I just ask, " You wanna argue or you wanna get paid?"
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I had an engineer that rented from me... I got him with the office building... first time i spoke to him was a early spring day in the elevator... was about 75 outside and the sun was out... much better than it'd been all spring... I happen to say how nice it was outside... and all he said was "if you like it like this " in the years that followed he got into the habit of calling me everyday to report on the mechanics of the building and what i should do to fix each and every system.. I finally had to tell him that if he needed anything write it down and send it to me as his lease described... he'd corner me in the hallway everytime i was at the building make'n me hate stop'n in at my own property... this a-hole would come back at nite after the cleaning crew and turn his lights and his small electric heater on just to run up my elcectric bill... yes he did the heater in the summer also.... I couldn't wait for his lease to run out so he'd be gone...
i stopped try'n to figure out what makes folks tic...
but everytime i need something with an engineers stamp I've learned to draw it myself with the materials i have access to and then ask the engineer... will this work? if the answer is yes... i don't want to know any other way i could do it i just want it drawn & stamped the way I know i can build it
p
p
That's one way to get what you need out of an engineer. As an engineer myself, it's actually a method that I frequently use with engineers from other disciplines. Rather than just throwing the problem at them and expecting them to be godlike in their ability to know my level of skill and understanding and the site conditions and all the other stuff my client wants but I didn't mention, I draw something and ask "Will this work, and if not, why not?" Most engineers are capable of two of the three types of answers required, i.e. "Yes", or "No, for these reasons and more that I won't waste either of our time to explain to you".
The third type of answer, "Maybe, but to figure it out would cost more than for you to just do it THIS way", can also be a very valuable answer. Sometimes it will save you major heachaches and money.
Good engineers will give you this answer- and a competent solution that you can build. But they're not gods- they can't know by osmosis your site conditions, your skill level and level of understanding etc. And they've got to worry about what happens when you're an idiot and improperly build what they design for you, then sue them and try to get their license taken away. So many of them rather like to analyze your proposed solution rather than proposing something that might be over your head.
thanks for your note... I happen to use/work with an engineer thats really easy to get along with and full of usefull info & history (since I'm usually working on old buildings) he knows i have yards & warehouses full of materials and knows if I drew in a 8 x 8 x 3/8" thick steel beam it's because i have one sitting at the jobsite... he does let me know a 6x6 x 1/4 would work if i have one sitting around so i can save the bigger one for another job... i also save all his drawings and include the ones where i can say... "heres where we welded up a connecting plate before like i want to use here... will this work again" saves his & my time because he already knows i can build it like he wants...
thanks again for your note
p
Fascinating thread, but it's causing some real problems for me. I'm a licensed PE and a licensed GC. Who do I get to complain about?? - lol
I guess both - depending on which hat your wearing at the moment.
Excellent post.
We use bridge painters for rigging on bridge inspections, so when the containment requirements for lead blasting were toughened, one of the biggest bridge painting outfits in the NYC area approached my old firm about running numbers for them (wind on tarps, supports, etc.).
One of the older guys at the firm never got constructability. He didn't like a bracket detail and refused to listen to the designer about the many applications this one bracket design allowed for. A call from the contractor explaining that there were over 400 of these brackets in his yard that have been used on bridges of all types for years put an end to the issue.
I once designed a braced excavation for a contractor who only had two different soldier pile sections in his yard. I doubled-up the walers to account for the undersized sections and required a bunch of struts that could be removed only after the concrete pad was cured. I actually played with a cut out of this fuel tank (a biggie at over 30 feet long) to make sure it could be lowered past the struts that had to remain. Oh and the piles were not long enough for the actual excavation depth, so the top ten feet were supported by steel roadway plates....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
I love good engineer jokes...you've probably heard these but...
Two engineering students run into each other on campus one day, one of them riding a fancy new bicycle. The other one says "Hey, nice bike, where'd you get it?" The engineering student on the bike says "You'll never believe this. I was walking the other day when the most beautiful woman I've ever seen came riding up on this bike. She dropped it on the ground, stripped off all her clothes and threw them down, and says to me 'Hey stud, I'll give you whatever you want'. Can you believe that?" His friend nods his head and says "Good choice, those clothes probably wouldn't have fit you anyway".
To an optimist, the glass is half full. To a pessimist, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, the glass was designed precisely twice as big as it should have been.
The saying at the university I attended was "Last week I could not spell engineer, now I are one".
Have a good day
Cliffy
Waterbear
I used to build a house for Habitat each year and one time a group of engineers was helping, man that was an eye opener!!!
Everything was dead on but it took forever to get it that way. No way could you make any money if you were doing it for pay.
Fun group of guys but anal is an understatement!!!
Doug
In college, my roommates were engineers. They considered themselves to be the practical, hands on guys...they made fun of the mathmaticians and physicists, as the ones who were too caught up in the details. I have wondered before...who do the mathematicians make fun of?
Edited 8/3/2005 10:10 pm ET by basswood
Edited 8/3/2005 10:12 pm ET by basswood
>>who do the mathematicians make fun of?The philosophy majors?
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
">>who do the mathematicians make fun of?The philosophy majors?"
_______________________________________In my major, the joke went:Chemical Engineers just want to be ChemistsChemists just want to be PhysicistsPhysicists just want to be MathmematiciansMathmematicians just want to be PhilosophersPhilosophers just want to be God.However, the pay scale is the reverse.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
We all make fun of the philsophy mamajors!
The philosophy majors?
I was a philosophy major.
Then I hit age 17, and quit smoking pot.
A bit off topic, but we have a joke in demography: Accuaries are people who found accounting too exciting!
Now THAT's funny
kinesiologists - comes from helping them with their stats runs all night..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Two Jokes:1:An astronomer, biologist, an engineer and a mathematician were crossing the border into Scotland from England on a train when they saw a field with a black sheep in it.The astronomer said, "Look -- all sheep on Earth are black."The biologist said, "Look, in Scotland the sheep are black".The engineer replied, "No, in Scotland some of the sheep are black".The mathematician rolled his eyes to heaven and said, very patiently, "In Scotland, there exists at least one field, in which there is at least one sheep which is black on at least one side".2:An engineer, a physicist and a mathematician find themselves in an anecdote, indeed an anecdote quite similar to many that you have no doubt already heard. After some observations and rough calculations
the engineer realizes the situation and starts laughing. A few minutes later the physicist understands too and chuckles to himself happily as he now has enough experimental evidence to publish a paper. This leaves the mathematician somewhat perplexed, as he had observed right away that he was the subject of an anecdote, and deduced quite rapidly the presence of humour from similar
anecdotes, but considers this anecdote to be too trivial a corollary to be significant, let alone funny.
Edited 8/4/2005 9:10 am ET by Frozen
Froz
I like that first joke!
I also resemble it.
Doug
Two Jokes:
tip 'o the hat - thanks -
"there's enough for everyone"
Here's a couple of our very old engineer jokes.
How do you get rid of a philosophy, literature, econ. or other BA grad at your door?
Pay him for the pizza.
What is the most common phrase used today by philosophy grads?
Would you like to biggie size that.
Lefty - Lurker without an attitude or a clue
I wish that you would all stop talking about me like that.It is hurting my feelings.
A mechanical engineer, a chemical engineer and a physicist are trapped on a desert island. A crate of food washes up on shore- in cans.
The mechanical engineer says, "Let's take a big rock and smash a can with it. We'll build up a lot of pressure and shear forces and the can will rupture and we'll be able to get at the food!".
The chemical engineer says, "I've got a more elegant solution. Canned food almost always contains water. We'll throw it on the fire, the water will boil, eventually the steam pressure will rupture the can and we'll be able to get at the food- and it'll be cooked!
The physicist chimes in and says, "But why don't we just assume we have a can opener?"
"who do the mathematicians make fun of?"lawyers?
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>>"who do the mathematicians make fun of?"
lawyers?<<
Reminds me of a case up in East Texas where a widow made a claim on her deceased husbands life insurance policy and the company decided to deny the claim and defend the lawsuit they knew was bound to occur.
They hired a bright young lawyer from Dallas to go down to the Piney Woods of East Texas to defend the suit.
He decided to call the old local Doctor who had signed the death certifcate as his witness.
"Now Dr. did you attend this man in his last illness?"
"No", said the Doc.
"well, did you make the ambulance call to his home on the day he allegedly died?"
"No"
"Well, were you in the Emergency Room when he supposedly died?"
"No." Answered the old Doc, patiently.
Growing more confident that he was proving his case, the bright young lawyer asked, "Did you even attend his funeral?"
"No", answered the old Doc.
"Well, then Doctor, since you didn't attend him in his last illness and didn't go out on the ambulance call and didn't treat him in the ER and..............didn't even attend his funeral..............how can you say that this man has really even died?"
The old Doctor said.................
"I performed his autopsy and his brain is in a jar up in my office..................
but as far as I know he may be out here practicing law somewhere!"
It's a mighty world we live in. But truth is we are only passing through.
Hey, I can identify with that.
I just love my compulsive anal retention....For example, when I framed my first floor using kiln dried 2X6's, I checked each one with an 8' level to ensure it was flat, and ran it through a preset table saw to ensure uniform thickness. This is reflective of everything I've done. My neighbors across the street are professional builders, and started their house a year after mine. They're done and I'm just starting trim work. I swear, I'm here to entertain them, with responses to my explanations of what I'm doing as ..."your gonna do what?!"..."Why"? and my favorite..."are you builiding a musical instrument!?"
So, why do the pro's do it good-n-fast, while privateers like me go slowly and over-over do just about everything?
Easy....They do it for a living...I don't.
BruceM
When my dad helps me out on my house, he always shakes his head & says "you'd think you were building a nuclear power plant or something"
< first floor using kiln dried 2X6's >Uh!what's the span?
So-
you made your floor joists thinner in order to achioeve uniform thickness, in spite iof the fact that as they finished drying and curing, they would end up different anywayand in doing so, you removed a degree of the strength - the purpose for which they were being installedI don't get it
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That's ridiculous! Washed?? Pre-drilled? On the exterior of a workshop? I guess if you'd whipped out a nail gun he would have passed out or maybe beaten you with it.
I have those anal tendencies also, but over the years I've put quite a bit of effort into learning what "good enough" means. I realized it is highly inefficient to work at a level beyond what is called for in a particular circumstance.
I guess if all you're doing is entertaining yourself and aren't at all worried about being efficient or getting a job done in a reasonable amount of time then you can afford to indulge yourself that way.
Who sasy that engineers can't over-complicate things when they have an idea and time on their hands...
http://www.eng.uwaterloo.ca/%7Egmilburn/ac/
(I gotta try this)
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A rather inhibited engineer finally splurged on a luxury cruise to the Caribbean. It was the "craziest" thing he had ever done in his life.
Just as he was beginning to enjoy himself, a hurricane roared upon the huge ship, capsizing it like a child's toy. Somehow the engineer, desperately hanging on to a life preserver, managed to wash ashore on a secluded island.
Outside of beautiful scenery, a spring-fed pool, bananas and coconuts, there was little else. He lost all hope and for hours on end, sat under same palm tree. One day, after several months had passed, a gorgeous woman in a small rowboat appeared.
"I'm from the other side of the island," she said. "Were you on the cruise ship, too?"
"Yes, I was, " he answered. "But where did you get that rowboat?"
"Well, I whittled the oars from gum tree branches, wove the reinforced gunnel from palm branches, and made the keel and stern from a Eucalyptus tree."
"But, what did you use for tools?" asked the man.
"There was a very unusual stratum of alluvial rock exposed on the south side of the island. I discovered that if I fired it to a certain temperature in my kiln, it melted into forgeable ductile iron. Anyhow, that's how I got the tools. But, enough of that," she said.
"Where have you been living all this time? I don't see any shelter."
"To be honest, I've just been sleeping on the beach," he said.
"Would you like to come to my place?" the woman asked. The engineer nodded dumbly.
She expertly rowed them around to her side of the island, and tied up the boat with a handsome strand of hand-woven hemp topped with a neat back splice. They walked up a winding stone walk she had laid and around a Palm tree. There stood an exquisite bungalow painted in blue and white.
"It's not much, but I call it home." Inside, she said, "Sit down please; would you like to have a drink?"
"No, thanks," said the man. "One more coconut juice and I'll throw up!"
"It won't be coconut juice," the woman replied. "I have a crude still out back, so we can have authentic Pina Coladas."
Trying to hide his amazement, the man accepted the drink, and they sat down on her couch to talk. After they had exchanged stories, the woman asked, "Tell me, have you always had a beard?"
"No," the man replied, "I was clean shaven all of my life until I ended up on this island."
"Well if you'd like to shave, there's a razor upstairs in the bathroom cabinet."
The man, no longer questioning anything, went upstairs to the bathroom and shaved with an intricate bone-and-shell device honed razor sharp. Next he showered -- not even attempting to fathom a guess as to how she managed to get warm water into the bathroom -- and went back downstairs.
He couldn't help but admire the masterfully carved banister as he walked. "You look great," said the woman. "I think I'll go up and slip into something more comfortable."
As she did, the man continued to sip his Pina Colada. After a short time, the woman, smelling faintly of gardenias, returned wearing a revealing gown fashioned out of pounded palm fronds.
"Tell me," she asked, "we've both been out here for a very long time with no companionship. You know what I mean. Haven't you been lonely, too...isn't there something that you really, really miss? Something that all men and woman need? Something that would be really nice to have right now!"
"Yes there is!" the man replied, shucking off his shyness. "There is something I've wanted to do for so long. But on this island all alone, it was just...well, it was impossible."
"Well, it's not impossible, any more," the woman said.
The man, practically panting in excitement, said breathlessly: "You mean... you actually figured out some way we can CHECK OUR EMAIL HERE!!??!!"
Sounds about right!
> ... pre-drilled evenly spaced (MEASURED!) nail holes.
No no no. Wrong way to do it. The right way is to make a precisely measured template, and use the template to locate and drill the holes.
My father used to make templates and jigs for everything imaginable. When nail guns first came out, he made a template out of 4x8 luan with holes to exactly fit the nosepiece of the gun. We sheathed a flat roof with it. The BI was amazed that there were absolutely no shiners anywhere.
-- J.S.