Now I know this is going to make a few of you chuckle and even more of you want to write back and tell me how stupid it would be of me to even consider letting this happen. So with that said let me set the scene.
I am a GC building a custom home in a very nice neighborhood. I like to pride myself with being able to build homes for people who are my neighbors and not having to run from them when I see them walking in the grocery store. True I have my problems from time to time, but overall every homeowner is very pleased. However, I now am building a custom home for a prospective neighbor. We are at the insulation stage prepairing for inspection. The other day the future HO mention he would like to help us trim when the time came. I just tried to blow off the first mention and tell him it might not be a good idea since my partner and I have a routine when running trim. However, a few days later he brought the subject up once again and this time it was not so much asked, but worded as though he would be helping us run the trim. Now I’m walking the fine line of trying to keep him happy while thinking of telling him NO! Now don’t get me wrong, if I knew the future HO was a good carpenter I might not have as much reservation. But what makes the situation even more touchy is the fact that he is very religious. Don’t take me the wrong way when I say this, but on the jobsite we all know things are going to be said that may not be kosher. I try not to curse around homeowners, but when I mis-cut a piece of base that I know is costing me money or smash my finger somehow there are times I’ve dropped the F-bomb. Not to mention the fact my partner and I could not talk about old college days or other wild times without feeling a little uneasy. And I haven’t overlooked the fact that no house is perfect and there will always be small stuff that is covered up. But with the HO actually helping build the home the small stuff could become an A Bomb real quick.
So I guess my question is, has anyone experienced this and how did you handle it. And what would be the best way to politely tell the future HO thanks, but no thanks?
Replies
Pull the insurance/liability cost card out and dust it off. You can't afford to have him around things that move really, really fast and are sharp<g>
Dave
Most of what you are showing concern over is not the same things that would bother me. most of my crew don't usefoul language on the jobn form simple respect and self control. And we don't have that much that needs to be covered up.
But having the HO do work raises issues of quality that I am aloof to deal with anymore. I have not yert seen one who can do the quality we do, so the morale thing comes into play. Seeing what low standards the HO has on quality would make it easy to say, why bother - his work makes it all look like crap anyway
But the way I handle thius is to say, if you want to,we can, but let me tel you a few stories first - these based on my earlier days working with HOs and seeing how they messed up jobs and increased their own costs while trying to save money. Half the time they opt out. If they insist, then they need to sign a liability waiver
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I don't think greenhead is talking about cussing like a sailor. I think that the uneasy feeling of working with the HO would be the difference between keeping a professional relationship with the HO. Greenhead has a job to do and not babysit a home depot weekend warrior who thinks that what we do is a fun hobby not to mention the GL factor.
I don't know how to deal with the dilemma of a HO wanting to help, others will have to help you out on that one.
But, you cant contain the foul language and reminiscing about the college days for a couple weeks? I wouldn't think that would be the biggest challenge you'll ever face.
I work in houses all the time with HO hanging around, never thought it was that difficult to clean up the bad behaviour, maybe you could use the practice.
On the other hand, a little slip of the tongue is not going to send you to hell just because you said something inappropriate in front of a "religious person"
Doug
A truly religious person would over look the faults of others and ignore behavior such a swearing. Seriously, not making any judgements not even a look or anything. I don't know why people judge the status of a person's adherence or devotion to their faith by their ability to correct or critiizes others.
O yeah, tell him unless he knows what he is doing and covers his own insurance and WCB not to show up.
I'm a DIYer who can get defensive when pros disparage all DIY work. But even I hope you can get out of this situation without having to work alongside the homeowner.
Even if he knows what he's doing, if he's working with you, he'll slow you down. If he wants to learn from you, that's commendable of him, but it will slow you down even more. You didn't sign up for that at the beginning so your not obligated to do it as an add-on mid-project.
The religion thing may not really sound like a big deal, but this isn't a little project where you're in and out in a couple of days and you expect to have to work around a homeowner. This is a long term situation where you expect to be able to work in "private" so to speak. You have a certain worksite atmosphere you're used to and adjusting it for a couple of weeks would be about as much fun as being doomed to a two week long dinner party with uptight strangers.
I suggest first playing the insurance/"my lawyer says I have no choice" card and see if he buys it.
If that doesn't fly, try having him agree to amend the contract to exclude trim work in the extra bedrooms and tell him he's free to do those on his own.
This sort of thing should have been stated up front before breaking ground.
Good luck.
I would tell him everything leading up to the trim only sets the stage for what you consider the crowning achievement, and thats no place for the novice woodworker
Start him out in the closets, if he then feels his work is up to par, move him into the bathrooms, very little trim there also. It may also be a good time to bring a camera along to document what you did and what he did.
I have from time to time let the homeowner pitch in, working by myself the extra hands come in handy at times. I'm currently doing a room addition where the homeowner is doing most of the demo work and is doing a fine job of it.
RU
a) You are/ should be concerned about liability. He will be using your tools and you're liable - palin and simple.
b) You also have a responsibility to do good work in a timely manner. Having a new guy on-site will slow you down, even if it is a new long-term-hire. This is factored into your cost and time schedules. Harry Home Owner was not part of your program and should not be now.
c) Would he allow you do share the work load at his office? You are blurring the professional relationship status.
d) doing "X" requires you and your crew to be in sinc. You all do things, anticipate and react with minimal or no dialogue. HHO won't be up to par.
e) You are running a business not a how-to clinic. Be staight-up with the guy. He can't foul you for that.
f) Bottom line - I will cost you and therefore HIM more if he helps. Even if he is good, he wiil distract you from what you will be attending to. You will have to stop what you are doing to supervise, answer questions, direct and correct him. That takes time. Time is money
Good luck. Nip it now or it will grow to greater involvment in the future. Now it may be awkward. Later it will be impossible.
Frankie
a custom home for a prospective neighbor. Does that mean it's a spec house? Tell him if he buys it he can help.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
If he wants to trim let him trim. Just don't let him trim with you.
Tell him he can do the windows. Give him a 3 day period to complete the window trim and then you come in and finish up the rest. Or do the doors and let him run the base.
Keep the lines between your scope and his scope clear. This will allow you to continue to work efficiently with the job site demeanor that you prefer and also help if he has complaints about the trim work later (the stuff that he muddled).
Jon Blakemore
I'm sorry everyone, I didn't mean for it to sound like we were drunken sailors on a weekend pass in Singapore. We do not go around all day long to see who can curse the loudest and tell the best relationship stories. We are professionals and we try and keep a professional demeanor at all times. I'm just as religious as the next man so I'm not meaning it to sound like that is a bad thing. I do thank everyone for their input. This has been a very awkward situation and the suggestions and ideas from you all will, I'm sure, prove to be very wise and helpful. Thanks for taking it easy on me.
Just read him this.
LABOUR RATES:
Then mention casually that your job site is rated PG for adult situations and occasional language....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I don't think that you have to justify your position to anybody. I personally would be happy to have him work with us. I would have him work in his own area and be responsible for that.
This would work for me. I have a partner who wouldn't think of allowing that. I can't even imagine anyone approaching him with the suggestion.
If you are uncomfortable telling him no, ask him how much he would like to pay for the privilege of helping to trim out his house.
Just a minor note -
If you break your posts up into paragraphs it makes them a lot easier to read.
Tough situation you're in. But it sounds like you've already gotten some pretty good advice.
It all depends on who he is. I can imagine the possibility of him being your closest client after this experience, and perhaps the one that is most respectful of your abilities. If he has a difficult personality, then tell him you must maintain a contractor/client relationship with him and that you are not comfortable with him working onsite.
OTOH, my best clients are the ones that are most closely connected to the job. We work very hard to do an excellent job and that is difficult for a client to see if they are aloof from the project. Once they spend time on our site, they become great references to how much we care about their project.
It would be similar to lending money to a freind of having sex with a coworker. The relationship would be forever changed.
Your Mileage May Vary
Greenhead,
I have a friend named Billy,we went to look at a job once and Billy writes an estimate right on the spot. He gives it to the homeowner and the guy looks it over and says "how about if I help you," Billy takes back the estimate and writes for a little while and gives it back to the guy. The guy reads for a minute and then says," this is five hundred more then before."Billy then explains that he's running a construction business not a trade school and if the guy wants to learn it costs him five hundred.
He got the job and the owner didn't help.
Now Billy was a little rough around the edges and his roughness kind of showed,just in his body language.He did a siding job for a guy once and when he was all done and wants to get paid the homeowner says where's the gutters.Billy tells him gutters weren't on the contract,guy tells him to put them on.
The next day gutters are done, Billy gives him new bill with gutters as extra.Guy says he's not paying because gutters should have been included in first contract.
Billy walks over to the house grabs hold of a leader gives it a yank and rips it off the building taking a section of gutter with it.The homeowner starts yelling, wants to know what Billy thinks he's doing.Billy tells him he's taking his gutters back.Guy writes him a check on the spot.He heads for his truck,guy stops him and wants to know what about the gutter he ripped off the building.Billy tells him he'll put back up for a hundred and fifty dollars,guy paid.
I sometimes wish I could be like Billy.
Vince Carbone
I like Billy.Bear
Billy is my new idol.
More stories?
He may reach Godlike status.
I didn't know Billy but we did have a Wigwam Harry, he was supposed to be university educated from back east. Got his name form living in a tent wrapped around a telephone pole in Whiskey Flats, just on the edge of Whitehorse. RCMP came to arrest him for something but he wouldn't come out, kept calling "come out of the wigwam Harry," name stuck.Anyway back in the days when basements were dug out by hand he did a job, the owner would only pay by check, Wigwam wanted cash, so he filled it back in.
I've known a few Billys in my day. They're great to watch, but they can get into some deep sh!t and they never seem to get very far in life. You from Franklin? My kin is from Unadilla & Otego, sister lives in Delhi. Lotta deer huntin' up that way.
Jer,
you're right about the Billys of this world. this one would do anything for a friend,you could call him in the middle of the night, he'd get out of bed no questions asked and do whatever you asked.
Yes I 'm in Franklin,well I have a Franklin address and phone number but I pay taxes to the town of Sidney but my kids go to school in Unadilla and the fire dept that covers us is from Wellsbridge. Country life,it's different then northern New Jersey where I grew up.Vince Carbone
here's one to go along with the Billy story.I was doing saturday work on a house way back when - as a side job. While I did the trim in one location, the owner was doing some painting in another area. he just put all the drops and uncleaned brushes etc out on the porch at end of day.I thought, "Hmmmm, seems a waste to not clean these. He must be planning to eat dinner first..." and went on with my cleanup of my stuff.The next week, the stuff was still piled right there, which really raised my eyebrow.I found out later, that these tools weere belonging to the painter. The HO decided to "help" over the weekend to get that room finished. The painter billed him for the time he had in, the tools ruined, something extra for the agravation, and never stepped foot in that house again.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Like others are saying, give him his own area to do. Write a change order eliminating the trim in the guest bedrooms and leave that area unfinished for him. Allow him to do that area after you are completely done, paid, and off the job.
My contract states no work by owner or owner's subs during the time that I am working... meaning that if I can leave some work for them to do after I am completely gone, they can have it. I don't want the owner working alongside me, or working on weekends or evenings while I'm not there. Trust me, something will happen that will make you sorry if you allow this.
Also, it's a dilemma
Personally, I wouldn't have any difficulty looking the prospective HO in the eye and saying plainly, "I'm not comfortable with the idea of anyone who is not a member of my crew working on a jobsite for which I am responsible. However, here's a compromise you may want to consider: I am willing to revise the contract to exclude trim from specific areas that are to be completed by the HO after the contractor has completed all work and has been paid."-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
I think that the liability issue gives you your justification - and it isn't bogus. If I'm reading this right, this guy isn't the HO. If that's true, he's just a "tourist" and has no business even being on your jobsite - let alone doing any work.
What does this guy do for a living? Whatever it is, tell him he can help you for a day if you can help him at his job. Maybe he's a surgeon or a helicopter pilot or something else that's fun like your job.
Hey Mister Sushi, you forgot to cook my fish.
"Am I dead or alive? What's this? Linoleum? I must be in hell." -The Salton Sea
I actually made that offer to an OBG/GYN.
He didn't put much merit in my medical skills, or sense of humor <g>
Don't know who he got to finish that basement.
Dave
You guys and possibly gals are far to wise beyond your years. Thanks for all of the info and good stories. I'll let you know how it turns out! Thanks again!
What is it about our business that makes people think it's ok to chip in?
Take your homeowner out to lunch this week. When the waiter comes up to take your order, tell him you're coming into the kitchen to help prepare your lunch. See if it sinks in after that.
A story similar to Vince's....
I've got a buddy who's in jail right now for an unrelated offense. He had an absolute punk working for him a couple years ago. One day he finally had enough and threw the kid off the job. Kid said he wasn't leaving until he got paid. Dean says payday is on Friday like everyone else. Kid still insisted on cash. Kids car also happened to be blocking the path that the loader my buddy was in was trying to take. You guessed it. My buddy pushed the kid's car sideways out into the middle of the street with the loader. Kid disapeared pretty quick. I think my jaw is still buried in the backfill somewhere on that job. I'm a little more subtle than Dean was.
What is it about our business that makes people think it's ok to chip in?
Shows on TV like This Old House and Hometime. The book aisles at Lowe's and Depot with all the how-to info. The many wonderful success stories out there about owner-built houses.
I only think it is OK, though, if the HO is tasked with a project or group of projects that is clearly separated from the parts where the sub's crew is working. Furthermore, he must use all his own tools.
Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Thanks Gene.... but it was kind of a rhetorical question.
he must use all his own tools
Hmm, add that into Dave M's, "C.O. the HO trim, out" idea, and that might be the ticket.
Both angles work together, you get to say "I don't hire guys without tools; but you are also not saying "no" to the customer. He even gets all the raw material trim he paid for (or whatever the CO negotiates to).
Unless the HO used to be a trim carpenter, their estimate of time needed for finish work is probably low by a factor of eight to ten.
Oh, and the CO needs to include prices for bringing back the painter when the HO gets done. That will likely halve any "credit" he's looking at for "helping."
Now, one more strategy for helpful HO is to put them on the needed tasks that are lowest on the "want to" list. Like back priming all the trim, or front priming too. Staining, as well (but, I'd get my painter/finisher to discuss his standards for paint & finish with the HO, with a fee schedule for "fixes.")Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Interesting thread. I have my own perspective to add.
I am GC'ing my own house. I have professional liability for design, general liability for everything else, AND a homeowner's policy already in place. I am not normally a GC, but run a surveying/engineering business with insurance requirements of its' own.
I know my limits with respect to my carpentry skills, but I am not above asking each contractor who subs for me if I can do some part of the work. I'm not asking to be in "trade school" - I want to do my share on nights and weekends when I can work at my own pace. For jobs I don't want any part of (like roofing and siding), or don't have the time to do right - I ask for a quote for the entire scope of work. I buy all materials, with the understanding that if I fail to have everything they need on the site when they need it, I pay for their time to go get it. So far, I have had every contractor agree to allow me to "help" - I pay them either on an hourly basis or for a set labor cost. I HAVE saved a lot of money so far. I make sure each sub that comes on the site has their own insurance, and I have gone so far as to loan them MY tools for portions of the work. (I'm a tool junkie, so often my stuff is better than theirs).
For the DIY homeowner who may have some basic skills but will slow you down or cause problems - I agree with the common sentiment. Keep them out of the way, or let them do a specific section of the work on their own time, with their own tools, and you stay out of it.
There should be a HUGE difference between the quality of work of a professional trim carperter and the average DIY'er. However, I see a lot of "pro" work that is pathetic and DIY'er are exposed to carpentry on a dozen or more poplular TV shows. The average customers know more now (or think they do) and are much more likely to have some basic carpentry skills and tools or at least interest, than they were just a few years ago. This is a "BIG Delimma," sometimes a big PITA, and often an overlooked opportunity. It should not just be Home Depot capitalizes on this huge market.Most contractors have an all or nothing mentality about this. The advice you have recieved so for may be perfect for this situation, because customer involvement was not considered up front. My business cards read "Contractor and Consultant" and I welcome providing HO's consulting services (I charge 50% more than my normal hourly wage). They do need to own, or rent their own tools. I start them in closets or spare bedrooms. I consult and assist and, if they get the hang of it, I disappear (with an educators premium in my pocket). The HO gets an apperciation for our craft, and as often as not they say, "why don't you take it from here." So I get the job anyway and the consulting fees on top. Sometimes the DIY'er does some really nice work.
I'm with Dave Richeson on this one. Your object is not to modify your conduct or interrupt your working arrangement with your partner, but to get the HO to back off and give up the idea.
Quote your insurance regs to the HO and tell him that you don't have coverage for him to be on the job site for stretched of time, and you expecially do NOT have insurance coverage for him working with machinery, material or tools in any way.
If you feel safe, throw in something about getting flagged by the building inspector if he comes by for a snap inspection and sees the HO working on the job site - you're all supposed to be trained, licensed craftsmen on site or some other type of BS like that.
As long as you say it nice, with a lot of gee whizes thrown in, you know, you sympathize with his wanting to be part of the crew and all, but the regs just don't permit it and you could get in a whole heap of trouble over it.
If her persists, tell him you'll leave him the basement to trim out after you're gone. Or the garage. Or something. You may have to go back when he cries "uncle" but, at least, it's in the neighborhood. Maybe you can even make it into a separate contract so that if you have to come back to fininsh/correct what he tried to do, you get paid extra.
And, hey, if he ever gets his license.....
Griff
Well Greenhead Here's my opinions and homeowner DIYer's take note:
There are some syndromes at work here that I find often:
Homedepotism: Bought tools last week on credit card, wants to show them to you, wants to use them with you, "everything is easy with Home Depot...." so the jingle sings on the TV. This customer is usually easy to handle if you give him some attention with his tools, maybe some safety tips and praise his work efforts -- that don't clash with yours (more on that later).
Discovery Channel Syndrome: Everything can be done in a weekend, costs nothing and help is easy to find and eager to be there, its all one big fun game! Accidents never happen, there's no overhead and of course, everyone in the neighborhood can pitch in and we'll all have a bar-b-que afterwards.
The Hard Core DIYer: These guys are actually a blessing. They appreciate your hard work and the years you've been in your craft and they know that you are the pro. They'll want to leave some things for themselves, but are usually very clear and have no problem with that boundary. They know to stay out of your way and understand when you speak to them.
The micro-manager/one-day G.C.: All your nightmares rolled into one. They are watching your every move looking for ways to take back the money they are paying you. They make changes they think will save a buck for them. They try to buy all the stock and hardware themselves
and expect you to work miracles with inadequate stock or items/shave off more money for nothing and generally have no respect for your experience or knowledge. God help those unfortunate enough to have these evil people. I learned my lesson last summer on a build project and am still chafing in the check register.
So...my advice?
Economics:
First off, most people appreciate honesty and will respect you for that. You are hired to do the project and it will be far more cost effective if they just stand back and let you do your job the way you do it everywhere.
Insurance:
Absolutely NEVER let anyone work on your jobsite that isn't covered by insurance, either yours or their own, as a professional subcontractor or employee. Anything else opens you up to a whole can of worms. Frankly, insurance companies are getting so tight these days that you might get canceled if they find you let volunteers work on your projects. Try to find coverage after a cancellation!
Workman's Comp:
What is this person? A volunteer? A subcontractor? An employee? Non of the above. He's a curious/nosy/bored homeowner. The state and feds wouldn't like your loose labor practices.
His insurance:
Does this homeowner have any insurance on this project? Probably not if you don't have a finished structure onsite. So guess who will pay if he cuts off his hand; ruins your tools or causes an accident that injures you or your employees/subs? Who pays? Well, you are the one with the big insurance policy....
How about wasted materials? How aggrevation to your other employeess/subs? Inferior work? You train your people and pay them to work as pros and now you expect them to waste their time and mess up their routine because you can't control your customer?
And that's what its all about in a nutshell. Control your customer. From the minute you meet them at first, you need to be in charge. No, that doesn't mean being a swaggering macho-boy a-hole. That means letting them know that they are paying for YOU to do the job PERIOD.
Give him a bone, a project to work on that keeps him away from you and your crew and your project. Can he plan and build a shed? Having a customer standing around is nerve - wracking, but a polite, "Excuse me I need to get back to work." "Sure, we can discuss that at ___ time." and then ignoring them while you work will often suffice. They may try all the time, but you have to stick to your guns.
The controller who watches everything you do must be dealt with early with CLEAR contracts that spell out your expectations for their behavior as well as your performance during the job. A clause that states that customers and other non-working personell must be "escorted" on the jobsite during work hours can cover you on this issues, just make clear your insurance and professional requirements.
Be clear, be firm and stick to your guns. You don't want to offend this guy, but you've got a job to do and a product to deliver, not egos to worry about. Handle him with respect and honesty and he'll probably understand.
Otherwise, well you are dealing with an idiot and good luck my friend because you'll need it.