Just watched a segment on O’Reilly on Fox News Channel (Friday night) dealing with data recorders (“black boxes”) which are now installed in ALL vehicles sold in the US of A.
It appears that auto manufacturers have been installing these devices in vehicles ever since air bags have been installed. They were originally designed to provide info on the operation of the air bag in the event of an accident.
Now, however, many manufacturers have refined the devices to record many different aspects of the vehicle’s operation just prior to an accident. Sudden, catastrophic deceleration or acceleration triggers the device to begin recording. It will record data for 5 seconds.
Thus, during the last 5 seconds before impact if you are decelerating (a panic stop) or, I guess, if you’re hit from the rear and suddenly accelerate, many different parameters of your vehicle’s operation may be recorded. Speed, position of the steering wheel (i.e., turning or straight), condition of the brakes, whether you are overloaded and stressing the suspension system, and several others are recorded.
If you are subsequently involved in litigation due to the accident the contents of the black box will be revealed to the court, your opponent’s attorney, your insurance company, the police, etc. If you were speeding, you’re dead! If you didn’t maintain your vehicle properly, you’re dead!
He said/she said type of arguments appear to be at an end. Conclusively.
Now, a question.
Is this justifiable in the sense that blame will be accurately placed on the wrongdoer? Is it fair to say that non-biased, independent, accurate recording of data is conclusive? Won’t this tend to reduce fraudulent claims? And, won’t it allow insurance companies to settle just claims and fight unjust claims? Is this the end of the ambulance chasing, shyster lawyer? Isn’t that a laudable goal?
Or is this an unwarranted invasion of your privacy? Do you have any expectation that you would be able to conceal the truth about your operation of your vehicle on a public highway? Is it reasonable for you to expect to lie and get away with it?
What are your thoughts?
Why haven’t the auto companies told everyone about this?
Replies
installing these devices in vehicles ever since air bags have been installed.
How long have we had airbags? our '96 had them - I've never heard of a court situation where this 'black box' info was mentioned...
O'Reilly on Fox News Channel
consider the source - -
I saw a report on this several years back. From what I recall, the auto manufacturers are attempting to cover their azzes while doing some research as well. With so many possibly frivolous lawsuits being tossed at car makers, they`re looking for a way to say, "hey look, its not the car, its the way it was being driven". Missed the report being discussed here, but I thought it was supposed to record a bit more than 5 seconds worth.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Sounds like a ratings pumper-upper to me.
It also sounds like it would be illegal under US laws; I doubt the automakers would be doing this without having their a$$ pretty well covered, and I don't see how that could be done legally. It's not exactly a National Security or Homeland Security issue (unless you consider the health of insurance companies' bank accounts essential to the national interest...).
It would be equivalent to having surgeons implant--without informing the patient--data recording devices in every patient they open up, so that the data could be tapped and revealed to a court in the event the person was ever subsequently involved in something the guv'mint might be interested in. In a society of laws where a police constable isn't even allowed to require you to identify yourself without a bloody good reason ('probable cause'), I don't think that this would get past the first entry-level judge who heard the case.
On a practical level, it's not even a good idea. 5 seconds of data taken out of the context of a road trip lasting anywhere from 5 minutes to 18 hours is not going to convince me as a juror of anything. If the box says the car was going 80 mph in a 20mph school zone, it's not even necessary; if true, there will be an enormous amount of hard, physical evidence to testify to that fact. And if the box claims the vehicle was speeding at 5mph over the limit, so what? Virtually everybody does this at one time or another, and an extra 5mph taken alone is unlikely to be a determinative factor in placing blame.
The danger of such a system would lie in our gadget-happy society's idiotic tendancy to believe in things we don't understand. For instance: Most people today believe that DNA testing is a virtually infallable way to identify who did what to whom. The facts are otherwise, as anyone who really understands how DNA testing is done will tell you. I wouldn't want something like this black-box gizmo to become accepted wisdom; the potential for abuse and false readings of who was at fault are too great and too easy.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
The way I heard it, 98% of the last words spoken in fatal accidents were, "Oh, Sh!t!"
Except in Wyoming, where 90% of the last words spoken were, "Hold my beer and watch this!" ;)
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
I thought that was in Arkinsaw
I'm with Doud - Consider the source.
If it hasn't been tested in court, I'm not sure who "owns" the info contained in the black box. I'm sure the issue will make it's way to the supreme court one of these days and they'll come up with guidelines for using the info.
The secret of success is knowing whom to blame for your failures.
Hi Boss!
How about a story from a couple of different sources:-
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-613matus,0,6020467.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines
http://www.msnbc.com/news/922253.asp
http://www.newhouse.com/archive/jensen061203.html
I say put 'em in all vehicles.
Dennis
"I say put 'em in all vehicles."
Dennis,
I hope you mean require them on new vehicles, not retrofit them into "all vehicles?"
Jon
Good Morning Jon
Yea, that. I don't think that it would make much sense to install them in existing vehicles.
Dennis
must use spell check...
must use spell check...
must use spell check...
Edited 6/21/2003 8:15:00 AM ET by Dennis
I should've been more specific.
When I said "tested in court", I was thinking of the supreme court. I figure the issue will make it to the supreme court one of these days.
You gotta listen to what I MEAN, not what I SAY..................(-:Luck can't last a lifetime, unless you die young.
I saw that show last nite too.
Here's the way it is w/out the hype.
Vehicle ECMs, BCMs, SIR modules and ABS modules constantly monitor their respective functions and if necessary turn on a light to alert the operator that there is a problem in a specific system. As processing speed and effeciency have come up, they also record a trouble code to let the diagnostic technician know why the puter turned on the light and therefore where to start his diagnosis. Since the mid 90s, vehicle ECMs have gotten powerful enough that they can also record data so the technician knows exactly under what conditions the failure occurred. The way this is done is: The respective computer constantly monitors a range of vehicle data related to the function of that particular system, data is rolled through memory in a stream for a few seconds before being replaced. When a code is set, the data stream is locked. Kinda like shutting off a hose, the water at the nozzle end entered at the spigot end a few seconds before, and what you have in the length of hose could be analyzed to show water condition over a few seconds time.
Typical data stored:
ECM: engine speed, temp, throttle position, vehicle speed, O2 outputs, MAF and MAP outputs, brake light switch, trans gear, trans shifter position(A/T), etc.
ABS: Individual wheel speed sensor outputs, brake light switch, etc.
SIR(Supplemental Inflatable Restraint): vehicle speed, brake light switch, G-sensor output, air bag circuit monitoring voltages, etc.
EG: Customer comes in complaining that his son drove the new car and said it was sputtering at 60mph and there is a check engine light on. I check data and the code was for MAF problem. I check failura data and find that it occurred at 105mph, at wide open throttle(TPS was maxed), and WOT was maintained for several seconds. It was nothing more that the factory speed limiter coming in at 105mph and the driver pinning the throttle for a while. I cleared the code, test drove it and told the customer to go ground his kid.
As processing has gotten more powerful, more parameters are stored in each module, but that's all there is to it. No conspiracy, no "Black Boxes".
Mike
PS: the only concern I have is with on board Sat-Com systems like GMs Onstar. They can use GPS data to locate your vehicle if stolen and upload commands to say unlock your doors if you lock 'em in, they could theoretically monitor your speed, etc. Although safety concerns prohibit them(black helicopters) from modifying your driving whilst you're driving, penalties could result.
On the up side, wouldn't it be great to be able to shut off that stolen car chase subject?
I think they should put chips in our butts and be done with it ;-0
like he ll
Daniel
O'Reilly was only the forum. His two guests, one pro and one con (fair and balanced I guess) divulged the information. O'Reilly, by his own admission, was caught unaware - he didn't know this was being done and, as in many instances, didn't express an opinion other than surprise. Ya can't condemn anyone all the time.
Other than surprise, I can't decide whether I worried by the growth of big brother here or not.
And Boss, I don't know whether it will get to the Supremes. The auto companies are private companies. The constitution applies only to governments - violating constitution rights happens by actions of municipal employees, not private sector employees. Where's the federal jurisdiction? Frankly, I think banks and credit companies, even supermarkets, have a hell of a lot more information on your daily life than the black boxes might provide. Just think of the information gleaned by your scan card at the supermarket checkout (if you used your real name and social security number when signing up).