Blue,
I thought of you today when I layed out my rafter pattern so I took out the 12″ speedsquare that I never use and layed out the 10/12 plumbcut and thought I’d tell you that I was thinking of you with a smile so I took a picture with my camera phone………;-)
Joe Carola
Listeners write in about power tool batteries, replacing sheathing behind brick, and rebuilding a pressure-treated deck.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Beautiful Joe...
I thought of you today when I pulled out my manly framing square and layed out a series of 15 1/8" blocks. As I quickly finished marking the last one I wondered...."how would you do this with a speed square?".
Then i remembered...YOU CANT!
blue
ps thats a very manly speed square!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
I thought of both of you today when I was confronted with the task of laying out and cutting some jackrafters.
I lost my reading glasses the previous day, so my near vision was shot and I couldn't read the framing plans. Not to mention that there was a car accident up the road that knocked down a telephone pole, taking out the power, so my sidwinder was useless.
Standing back far enough from the house, my eagle-eye far vision kicked in and allowed me to estimate the lengths and angle cuts needed to frame the froof.
So, with the sun at my back the wind in my face, and a just delivered stack of 2x10s in front of me...at lest they looked like 2-by-10s...tough to tell without my glasses...I fired up the chainsaw and...
You guys all got some issues!
I thought about Teri Hatcher all day.
I thought about how to get that security job.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Yea that one to!
Mongo...don't get me started now...
You can use the square to figure rafter lengths. Heres how.
Lets say you go stand back 200'. You use the square to measure the span...holding the square at arm's length. Then, you use that same square to measure the front door height which is known to be 82". Using the good old fashioned ratio and proportion formula you can calcute the run....
Or, you could just go tape it.
Chainsaw? I tried one once for cutting all the truss tails without unbundling them. I'm faster with my blue saw...and I still don't unbundle them!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Quote: "Lets say you go stand back 200'. You use the square to measure the span...holding the square at arm's length...."
I've been estimating pitch that way for a few years, standing back, leveling one blade of the square while the roof plane intersects, say the 3" mark. If the roof plane intersects the 6" mark on the other blade (reading both at the outside edge), then I'm usually looking at a 6/12 roof. You can do a quick materials estimate that way (halving the gable end wall length to get the run) but I wouldn't start laying out rafters without first pulling a tape.
Cheers.
Pierre, I've done that too.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
If you can all the squares, you can use your construction calculator and your tape to make all of the calculations and cuts. We don't need no stinkin' squares!Les Barrett Quality Construction
Les,
Construction Master with a 10/12 Pitch using a 2x10.
10 [Inch] [Pitch]
9.5 [Inch] [Run]
Press [Diag] Returns 12-3/8" (Length of Plumbcut)
Now hook your tape at the top of the 2x10 and mark 12-3/8 at the bottom of the 2x10 and scribe the tape. There's your plumbcut.
Will Blue be proud.....;-)
Joe Carola
Yeah but you forgot to deduct half the thickness of the ridge.................
never mind I went back and reread your post . I see what you were getting at.
I knew you would do that. Do you have a Construction Master?
Figuring the plumbcut length like that is easy when you want an exact ridge height. I just figure from the inside of the wall and use that as my run and add the plumbcut to the rise. If you figure from the outside of the wall you have to get the H.A.P. cut and add that to the rise. Figuring it that way you use an extra step because you have to layout your birdsmouth first and then measure from your seatcut to get thet H.A.P. cut. You can get that with the Construction Master.
For a 3-1/2" wall.
10 [Inch] [Pitch]
3.5 [Inch] [Run]
Press [Rise] Returns 2-15/16"
12-3/8" - 2-15/16" = 9-7/16" (H.A.P)
Joe Carola
Edited 11/1/2004 11:25 pm ET by Framer
yes I do Joe and I have done just that several times.
Btw how is your boy?
Took mine for a ride on a combine yesterday with a farmer friend of mine. Needless to say he loved that. He loves tractors and trucks etc.
Great way to make a five year old happy.
My son is doing fine thank you. He started kindergarten and he goes a full day and loves it. I started him wrestling about a month ago. You got to see him. He is one aggressive little kid. Out of all the sports wrestling is his favorite.
I'm glad to here your enjoying your son. Five is a good age. Joey turned 6 in August and he is a funny kid as I'm sure your son is also. He only has about 10 girlfriends for now but I'll have to give him a few pointers ;-)
Joe Carola
Joe ,
You are correct it is a great age...... he will be six in march and also started kindergarten this year. Very intelligent little boy. He is such a joy to have around.
Kids are the best.
Glad little Joe is doing great.
I had to reread that one several times before I figured out what the shortcut was.
I'll keep that one in mind...and use it the next time I need to know the ridge.
Good one!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Blue,
With your calculator for your 12/12 valley without going on the roof with the stick you can just do this.
16.97/12 = 1.414167
48/1.414167 = 39.94" or 33-15/16"
Lay your 6 sheats of plywood down and measure in and mark 33-15/16" draw a line from that mark to the corner of your sheet and cut it off your done. Use the cut off as a pattern if you need to cut more.
You can do the same for any pitch the Common Rafter Per Foot Run numbers are on the framing square (NOT A SPEESQUARE).
8/12 Pitch.
14.42/12 = 1.201667
48/1.201667 = 39.94" or 39-15/16"
Joe Carola
Edited 11/2/2004 6:32 am ET by Framer
Framer, the technique that you describe is exactly the one I've been using since the early 80's. You are describing a cut from 33.94 to nothing, cutting off one edge of the plywood and using the drop for a pattern.
That idea is second best to the cut stick idea and I'm not opposed to using it. However, I usually like to precut the entire run of valley ply, and furthermore I hate using chalkline. Invarialby, I make that 33.94 mark and eyeball the cut to the corner anyways!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
I am proud of you Joe. On my dual power ($5 now), I press 244, square root, x,9.5, divided by, 12, = 12.36!
I'm hitting the buttons exactly 12 times...how many do you have to hit buttons on your construction master? It looks like you only have to hit yours 7 times....you might be faster!
Your concept is one that I use though. I make a "cut stick" for roof plywood that lays in the valleys. It's very fast to use an very accurate. I make them out of furring strips (the ones left over because I don't use them for bridging).
Because it's late, I'll use a simple example: 12/12 layon to a 12/12 main roof. The cut of the plywood would be 48 sqaured x2 x sqrt. The ply cut length would be 67.88". I tack a nail 67.88" apart and then I just lay it on the ply, tighten the nails to both edges and mark with a pencil!
No chalklines on my roofs! YOU DON'T NEED ONE!
Blue
Ps Forgive me if the math is wrong...I'm too tired to think hard about it and math doesn't come automatic to me sometimes.Warning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Blue,
Now that is a darn good trick. And as long as the valleys are uniform it should work great. I LIKE IT. Actually you could use the same thing to mark rafter tails or any other angled cut. Drywall ....... whatever.
I only figured that trick out this year Professor.
One thing that I do differently than any other crew Ive watched is that I start my valley sheathing from the valley first! Lets say I have a layon that is going to take 6 rows of plywood. I lay my "cut stick" on and mark the top sheet, but cut through 3 sheets, with the cut going right through the center of the sheet. I then take the half sheets, with the perfect angle already on them and lay them in the valley. they'll stagger themselves nicely and all I have to do is cut them half on which ever rafter I can.
Of course I eyeball all the cuts. This system makes sheathing at the valleys very simple and it only requires one measurement....the "cutstick"!
This one idea will save many hours on one house.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Interesting idea about sheathing from the valley out. So the 6 identical pieces cut in one go from 3 sheets would end up being placed by skipping a row each time, right? And you'd lay down full length (with one end cut at the valley angle) ply sheets in between, yes?
BTW, when you apply sheathing to a roof or floor, I imagine that you still push and pull the rafters/truss/joists to the o.c. layout marks before nailing the sheet, right?
No Pierre1, I don't skip any. I just lay all six pieces, one on top of the other. It steps itself perfectly so that no seam line up.
Because I always take my saw and stapler up with me, I've found this is by far the fastest way to sheet a valley. There are no small pieces in the valley, not much waste and no time wasted anywhere. The valley itself looks beautiful because your fitting the hardest cut in first.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
I'm just really really slow today (and last night and yesterday . . . ) I'm trying to understand your cut stick and I'm just not getting it. It sounds like a great idea, but I don't understand :-) Can you explain it to a guy like me? Please? :-)
Tim,
I think this is what Blue means. But he's really full of it because he uses his SPEEDSQUARE to get the angle.........;-)
Joe Carola
A picture is worth a thousand words!
thanks Framer!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Framer, that just about where I lay that stick to cut my starter pieces on the valleys.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Yes I will Tim. I'm talking about hip or valley cuts on 4 x 8 sheets of plywood.
I figure out what the length of the diagonal cut will be on a sheet of plywood when laying it into a valley. Lets say that the diagonal length of that cut is 65 inches. that means every cut in that valley will be 65". Joe would make a full scale pattern with one leg 48" , the other leg would be 43.82" and the last side would be the diagonal of 65".
I used to do it that way, but now I simply drive a nail in a board, 65" apart. I then lay that board over the plywood and rotate it till each nail touces the top and bottom of the sheet of plywood. I then mark along the board and the diagonal measurement of 65" is completed...ready for cutting!
It's much faster and very accurate.
blue Warning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
For the love of everything!!!! Right after I posted, that is what I figured you were saying. We've worked the last 2 days in pouring raing and the connections in my brain haven't dried out yet.
Now, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to do that on our job and claim that I made it up :-) Great idea. I really could have used that today.
The old stick trick has been around for years. It works great for full length hip/val sheathing cuts. I have a cut trick for the little fill-in triangles that happen frequently at the hips. Using a full-length hip/val sheathing cut-off as a pattern you can take the hip measurement that is greater than 8’ and mark it from the corner of your pattern and put the mark on the square end of the 8’ piece and mark your cut. This method will give you the measurements for two hip cuts at once. The big piece with a little corner cut off of it and the smaller fill-in triangle.
An example of what I am saying is: Say there is 9’ 4” of sheathing measured to finish the run at the hip. You mark the pattern at 1’ 4” from the point of your pattern and place the mark on the full sheet and mark. If the triangle cut-off from this larger piece is big enough, but not to big, (don’t want to wast a large triangle cutoff on a small fill-in), then the fill-in is marked at 1’ 4” from the point of the saved/leftover scrap and cut. This produces both pieces with one measurement and saves time taking multiple measurements to finish the run.
Good idea Mr Jalapeno.
the main reason I start at the valleys is to avoid all those small pieces.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Blue,
I always, when possible, start my roof sheathing with a full sheet in the center of the run. This will usually assure that the on center layout is started correctly. If you start wrong from one end then you have to fix it. If you start right in the center, no fixing, just slinging.
I don't quite follow that logic Mr Jalapeno.
our ends are parallel with our middles and vice versa. In the case of a valley, remember..I just flop in tight to the valley and then cut it half on, on the rafter that is "in the middle". Then, all layouts proceed exactly on center from that "in the middle" rafter.
How could that go wrong?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
be careful now..yer gonna get this thread yanked if ya challange someone..{G}
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
It is a little scary Sphere.
I musta scared the pepper man off...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Blue,
I do not consider what you or I have said as a “challenge”.
My statement is based more on experience than logic. I’ve done this kind of work long enough to have figured out the preferred screw-up. I prefer to place as many full sheets first and cut the hip/val angles to fit. Less screw-ups. If the “In the Middle” rafter is not perfectly straight when you measure the valley cut, then the layout will be thrown off and you “may” have to cut or scab the next piece.
Your “Valley first” method reminds me of the way I used to deck roofs decades ago. I would cut the valley cuts at one end of full sheets and put them in not caring if the square end was breaking. Then I would slam the 4/8 sheets in overlapping them and pop lines where they break and cut through both sheets at once. The cuts did not have to be square or straight, just centered, since the kerf would match the splices perfect. It was a very fast way to deck simple hip/val tract homes. Not very thrifty with the material might add. But that is tract framing.
These days, with Tech-shield so popular, and thrifty material use being a job factor, I do things better, and easier too actually. I have improved the stick method by using a 6’ aluminum straight edge rule (less flex than a stick) by using my hex stair locks/nuts to hold the diagonal length and I use a small spring clamp to keep the straight edge held fast at one end. The old 2 nails and stick was a slippery straight edge. I keep a framing square handy as well as a four foot “T” square and of course a chalk line. I use the fastest tool at hand to make the marks. The methods I use today are much more thrifty and I do not have to fix my layout very often.
Now if you want to have a “Decking Race”? That’s a challenge! 8)
Just for fun! Richard
Sorry Richard...I don't race anyone...I simply do my fastest all the time.
I don't agree that there would be any more waste. I'd have to analyze it a bit, but I don't really think there is more waste.
Your "tract" home suggetion is not really a tract home idea....its a very usable common sense approach, one that I used to use quite frequently on the roofs. I don't use that approach any more because today, we always have to use ply clips. The "slap and lap" doesn't work well with clips or I'd be doing it every day....all the time.
There is one thing wrong regarding the "slap and lap" scenario that you describe. You said "Then I would slam the 4/8 sheets in overlapping them and pop lines where they break and cut through both sheets at once" . The problem I'm having with that statement is that lets suppose I've layed my sheets into the valley and ran them wild past a couple of common rafters. I then overlay the next sheet...but I don't do that indiscriminantly. I lay it perfectly on layout on the far common and magically, it lands in the center of the overlapped common. I then run my saw (no lines snapping needed because I just follow the factory edge of the new sheet) down the center cutting only the bottom one and presto...the layouts are perfect and the only waste in on the first sheet that would have created waste on the angle cut anyways!
Am I missing something about your method?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Blue,
I am not a speed typist by any means but I reply as fast as I can.
I did more on edge, no popped line cuts as you describe and don’t use the “lap and slap” for the same “clip” reasoning. I have grown to prefer not taking the saw on the roof if possible. The “help” can thwart that wish occasionally. I have a couple of light yellow DeWalts that bounce well so if a saw goes up, it’s yellow. I was referring to the cut-off triangles from the original valley cuts not being completely usable. But it’s probably not that big a deal. If the factory break was not following the rafter then it was shifted 2’ and a line was popped. That was wasteful but faster.
Today I break the sheathing from the first common or at 4’ from it. I always break the next run in the center of the sheets below for a 4’ overlap. This will often give equal measurements at the hips and two pieces can be cut at once.
I don’t think you have missed any thing that I can see/tell. You have filled in the gaps of my lazy and incomplete explanation. We’re on the same page I think. Take care blue.
Mr. Jalp.
That all makes sense Mr Jalp. I do think we are on thesame page.
All of my methods involve taking the saw on the roof and certainly I'd do things differently if I didn't. Thanks for responding and regards.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
Blue,I did this on Wednesday and it worked out perfect the drawing I'm posting will be with the same 5/12 Dormer Pitch with the 10/12 Main Pitch like I showed with the Framing Square all you have to do is for a 5/12 Dormer Pitch Intersecting to a 10/12 Main Roof pitch just pivot the Speedsquare until it hits 5 pitch mark at the top of the rafter and mark the top of the pivot point and then mark the 10 pitch mark and scribe the red line straight through and that's your angle.Notice the color of the Speedsquare I drew for you Blue....;-)Joe Carola
That blue drawing is nice!
Thats actually a little easier to do using the speed square. As you already know, it can be done with the framing square too, but it's a little awkward.
I'll now go tell Frank that he can go out into the weeds and find his speed square...only when we have layons like that though!
I'm still not going to carry one for that lonely purpose.
I had to put together a coupla hip ends today. It was a truss job and the jacks are already sized and the only major part I have to cut is the hip itself. Out of guilt, I tossed my framing square up there (I can't believe I let you guys get into my head about this stuff) and I acutally used it to mark the first hip plumb and level cuts. I also had to cut two small jacks (about 31" each)....but there was no way I was going to pick up a square and mark those out...no way...no how.
But it did get me to thinking about how I evolved from an anal, mark everything to the 1/32" in length to where I am today. I think I figured it out. Intitially i was thrilled to know that I could figure out a set of rafters but eventually the novelty wore off. Most of our stuff is trusses and the most conventional we do is layons and hip corners, along with small stuff like bay roofs.
Anyways, at some point I quit precutting all the layon packages becuase there always was a lot of stuff that couldn't/wouldn't be smart to precut and I started cutting more and more up on the roof. Also, it's easier to get the materials up there (by hand), if I'm leaning all long raw stock up, instead of lots of short precut stuff. Eventually, I got tired of premarking the rafters and just started marking the lengths and eyeballing the cuts. On these layons, I ALWAYS have the ability to recut the part because the rafter simply moves up hill a little and therefore there wasn't any real "risk" involved. After cutting/recutting a bunch, I somehow managed to start getting them right the first time.
All of this came to me today as I was eyeballing the 2nd hip in as I had to recut the bottom cut (I'm working on a 5/12 and its been a real long time since I've made a 5/17 level cut!). It also explains why some of the framers in here have never tried to eyeball the cuts. If your cutting rafters that run from ridge to plate with an exact heel, you don't have any margin for error and you don't ever get a "second chance". On the layons, if I'm feeling timid, I cut the plumb cut shallower at first, then lay it up there to see how much I have to trim. Today, I didn't have to trim any of the top cuts...but some days, I have to recut a lot.
So...thanks for the tutorial on making that cut. My next question is about hip rafters....unequal hip rafters. Can you use that thing to give me the cuts on a 8/12 major roof with 12/12 hip ends?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
I'm trying real hard to be open minded.... I swear. But I just don't see what's gained by eyeballing cuts like that. How are you saving time when you often have to cut and recut. It's not like marking them out really takes long at all if you're using stair guages or "buttons" on your framing square. What am I missing?
I gotta admit though, even if you convince me that it's faster.... I still don't think I'd do it. Maybe if things got slow and I ended up back in the "developments" I could start pulling that cowboy stuff. But in all honesty, I'd never get away with that stuff with the GC's I frame for. They pay very good money and expect to see quality. They're not looking to hammer me down to a sq ft number and force me shave tenths of a second off my routines to make ends meet. The way I see it, I am getting paid to have rafters that mate with the ridge perfectly or jacks that mate with their valley or ridge perfectly. The inevitable "sloppy" looking cuts just wouldn't fly and sooner or later they'd be another framer filling my shoes.
When someone walks through one of my frames I really don't want them to be thinking," Dang, this guy must be FAST". I want them to be thinking "This guy's GOOD".
Maybe we're just in different businesses?
Diesel, I'm glad your open minded. The amount of recuts is minimal, depending on my day. I've had days that I could put the whole kit together without ever recutting anything. I've also had days where I cut myself a pattern, because I just can't "see" the imaginary line.
I do cut all my rafters in a different sequence than anyone that I've ever known...and my sequences may have something to do with my success rate. For instance, I have a much higher success rate at cutting the plumb cuts perfect on the first try, but I believe theres a reason. I always cut the plumb cut off of the end of the stock and that means that I have to develop an eye for a certain amount and aim it toward the corner. For instance, if I'm cutting a 12/12 on a 2x6, I have to eyeball exactly 5.5". When you think of it, that's actually quite easy becasue your creating a square in your mind. Each lower pitch is slightly less than that and probably if you did it a few times, you'd become quite automatic too.
The level cuts are more troublesome. I ALWAYS make a double cut on these compound cuts. I first make the pitch cut at 90 degrees and then angle them at the proper degree to lay onto the roof. I started using that series of steps twenty years ago because I got tired of picking up stock and having a reversed angle on it. Now...every piece has a 90 on it and it can be used for either side of the ridge on a layon.
I normally only have to make one recut to get the right "feel" for these cuts. Usually, on my first try, if I'm not feeling confident, I back off and cut a lower pitch. This makes the heel land first and I note the adjustment and make the cut. As I "feel" the right angle and note the angle with my eyes, it all just seems to lock in. All in all, I don't have to recut that many and I'm way ahead if you'd analyze the time it takes to mark every one vs recutting once in a while.
Your last paragraph again implies that our framing is less than satisfactory. You can rest assured that its not and you'd never be able to figure out if I marked them or not. No one walks in and thinks were fast or good...all the framing looks the same whether its marked or carved. I use the same techniques if I'm framing in customs or "developments". In fact, we just finished the builders personal house...the one with the round tower staricase. His dad, who owns a very successful road paving company stood and watched all of us over three houses (a couple a months worth). Day after day, he watched, I carved. The old guy would've tossed us if we weren't doing a great job. In fact, I got my first "tip" from one of those custom's homeowners. The delightful lady pressed a $100 bill into my hand and thanked me for doing such a nice job. All the guys got handed a bill.
Stop believing gabe...we're not hacks....he just likes to label us like that to make himself feel better.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,Happy Thanksgiving. Are you talking about the plumbcut and level cut of the unequal pitched Hip?BTW, How do you normally figure your plumbcut cuts and level cuts for theses Bastard Hips?Joe Carola
Edited 11/25/2004 1:41 pm ET by Framer
That's a fantastic trick. I never knew that and with my limited math background, that's always an angle that I've just scribed and memorized in degrees for the remainder of the job. Thanks very much for that useful tidbit. I'll be using it next week if we ever get to the roof on this beast I'm currently framing.
Dieselpig,Happy Thanksgiving. I realized it once I marked the angle with my framing square and with the 2 different pitches that I should be able to do it with the speedsquare so then I pivoted the speedsquare until I saw that both angles were there and bingo it worked and then I checked it with a couple other combinations and it worked also.Joe Carola
Just too cool..wish I'd known that yrs ago..good one.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
damn dude...
ya gotta keep yur framing methods on a lower key....
I took apart some framing over the last 2 days that Piffen had put up...
construction grade 2x4's put to gether with HDG40d's......
In the home stretch and I found he had switched from 40's to 60's....
I say.. Hey Pif .. what gives with these spike...
He says... they're "BLUE BOLTS"....
Say what....
Then he goes into the posted collective wisdom of yur methods and how he got the idea from you on using said hardware.......
you take the next wall down....
Oh well, Piff learned using 40's to frame with from you and does... I can still keep using 20's for the trim...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
It is with great fear that I admit that we use the 12 inch speed square. WE also use the blue book(it is blue, so maybe I'll be forgiven) and have been for about 20 years. I may as well confess everything. We also use the Rafterman software and get a printout of all the lengths of every board. The thing is, it all works great every time. It saves so much time. But in all fairness to my guys I do teach them how to use the framing square.
Joe, I did not know that trick with two roof pitches. We figured out how to make run cut marks a long time ago. The book did not tell us that.
I want to see your answer to blue's question about hips at two different pitches.
Also, I understand that when you have two different pitches on a hip and you want the overhang to be the same and the facia to match up, that what if have to do is lessen the heel height of the lower pitch by the difference is the rise of the two roofs. WE have tried this and it works well. Is their any better way?
James Hart
think maybe that method happens around here more than anyone will admit???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
You're still alive and as eagle-eye'd as before?
well, well, well... mr carpenter.... as i live and breatheMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It....is...........ALIVE!!!
Well look what the cat done drug in...<g>
Darn good to see your name up in lights again. I tried hunting you down a few months ago for a canolli-fest up in the North End. Rebecca and I walked in to the place...and we just about had to be rolled out.
I thought you would get a kick out of that big 12" Speedsqaure marking that 2x10 .
ps thats a very manly speed square!
It's called a SPEEDMANSQUARE!
Joe Carola
Edited 11/1/2004 8:06 pm ET by Framer
That is one manly square....which pouch do you put that beast in?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
That is one manly square....which pouch do you put that beast in?
No pouch it stays on the shelf in my box truck. I only took it out for you today. I'm doing an add-a-level with the house wide open and I'm thinking of you instead of Terry Hatcher..........I must be Insane........................
Joe Carola
Blue,
Looks like you are about to run out of space to post disclaimers on your posts.
Yeah I know Intrepid_cat...
and I have to add a safety disclaimer now!
Geez...when will it end?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!