Hello Gents, my question today is about blueprints. I am finding a lot of people want substantial work done to their homes, additions etc. and don’t want to incur the cost of having an architect draw up prints. No wonder with the tax burden we bear here in upstate N.Y., among other things. So should I go out and buy software which will help me with the bids etc. or look for another solution. I don’t have a problem with buying software I just don’t want to invest a lot of money to and have the stuff be obsolete in two years. How much should I expect to pay and what are you guys using that you like? Thanks Joe
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joe.... to do const. drawings requires some fairly sophisticated software, a long learning curve to become proficient in it,
an investment in some equipment like new computer/ plotter
when you get done.... how will you charge for your design services?
will you charge enough to pay for your time ? from the same people who don't want to pay an architect ?
of course... the least expensive plans are done on a drawing board.... how are your drafting skills ?
Add in, what are his design skills?One can imagine the reaction if someone said that to save money they'll cut some other professional out of the process and expect to achieve the same result. Maybe they can and maybe they can't. But just as a framer brings a lot more to the building than a hammer, and an electrician a lot more than wire cutters, a designer brings more than CAD or a pencil. Since these are "substantial" renos or additions, design could go a long way toward making a successful or unsuccessful project. With designers and architects having a wide range of costs and services, maybe it'd be a better use of his time to find one whom he could work with and regularly use and at a reasonable cost. Might work out better than the cost of a CAD seat and the months and months of work needed to master it.
as a follow-up...
i use Chief Architect... they come out with a new version apx. every 18 - 24 months..
the old version doesn't become obsolete, it's just that the newer versions are so much better that you upgrade to stay current
Chief runs about $1500 - $1900....
i would think you can get something from about $500 - $5000 depending on what you like..
the main thing is the investment in time in learning any CAD software
You usually don't need an Architect to draw plans unless there are special circumstances that need a stamp. Some of the better lumber yards have draftspeople that may be able to help. The better software programs like ACAD are real expensive and difficult to learn. Getting some things plotted can be frustrating. I hand draw my prints, if there are truss or beam applications, the suppliers can give you the stamped drawings for those. In my area, the permit office is just looking for a plot plan, floor plan and an elevation detail of the construction assembly. You can get the original plot plan at the Registrar of Deeds. Draw in the addition and note the set backs. Some of the towns require a surveyor to check the lines, but you don't need a complete survey. Government work is a different story, sometimes they want specks on the towel bars
You may want to check your local Vocational Center or Tech College that has a drafting program. The teacher may be able to recommend a good student that will moonlight for a small fee or a graduate that is in the business.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
He is in NY.
State law- any project over 10K in cost requires an architects or PE's seal.
Ah, life in a big town. Can't fault the NY archys and PEs for their job security program. My father is a PE and his stamp has come in handy a few times. If those are the rules, it's just part of doing business and you have to include the price of those services in the project.If contractors hadn't done crappy work, there wouldn't be a need for those rules. Problem is, having a stamp doesn't mean you know what you are doing either. At least, the buck will be stopping at their address. I'd make sure the estimate included my time at their offices too.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Joe,
I have always said that a clear set of plans and specs are necessary for a clear understanding. They define, and confine, the scope of the work that is included in the bid.
I give free estimates only. If I provide the plans and specs then I charge competitively for that groundwork. The client is free to get other bids after that, if they wish. I use Auto CAD Lt and print plans with a HP cp 1700 printer. At the time I made this investment I spent around $1000 total. This printer prints 11x17 plans. I personally like the smaller format. I do floor plans 1/8 scale. Details are done in 1/4 scale. ACAD Lt is not as advanced as Chief but will produce very good set of 2-D working prints. I just have to turn the page more often but they organize nicely on a clipboard.
But like Mike Smith points out. “ the main thing is the investment in time in learning any CAD software”
But if you have the time, it’s worth it.
MrJ,
I use AutoCAD lt too--how do you like the HP 1700? I am just getting back into design work after a stint of carpentry, and just couldn't justify the cost of CA or Softplan when I am already proficient on AutoCAD. Those object-based programs do look good though.
Mike
Mike,
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You know what they say, “There is nothing “automatic” about AutoCAD Lt”. But once you get proficient at it, it doesn’t seem so bad. I’m using ACAD Lt 2000.
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The HP cp 1700 is OK for me doing “Design - Build” projects. Most of the custom builders I frame for all use the large format prints though. One of the nice things about the cp 1700 is that it has color, which is cool for doing joist and rafter overlay layouts on the floor plan. I use green for joist and red for rafters and blue for beams. If I’m away from the job, my guys still put the correct lumber in the correct place without to much verbal instruction.
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The draw back is the ink isn’t cheap. But compared to the cheapest plotters I looked into it’s very cheap.
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As far as printing goes, about the only problem I’ve had is printing dashed lines. It doesn’t like to do it, so I just off-color them instead.
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I hope that provides a little insight for you. If you decide to go with the HP I’d appreciate a tool review back too. Mine has been almost trouble free. Good Luck.
Thanks. I have an older HP 500 printer-scanner-copier that has been a great machine, but only does 8.5" wide. Large prints I send down to the local copy center, which has the obvious drawbacks. I just checked the plan I'm drawing now though and it wouldn't fit on an 11x17 at 1/4" scale, and since I am dealing directly with homeowners I don't think I could get away with a smaller scale. That, and the builders wouldn't be too happy. Guess I'll keep saving up for a large-format machine....
Mike
If you have the equipment to do 11x17
print out prrofs in the 11x17 and use 1/8 scale. Its a little small
however you can then write in that it is a 1/4 scale, send /burn to a pdf file (PDF 995 is free on theinternet) , take to kinkos or smiliar and have them print as a 22x34.
It will take the 1/8 scale to a 1/4 scale
try one first, double check the measuremnts, might have to adjust a little or have them adjust a little.
where Ive run into problems was when they did not double it, but printed to fill page
+++++++++++++++++++++++
a decent used large format used is gonna cost 800+, thats a lot of prints at Kinkos
and if your looking at used large formats, get as much memory as you can, usb cable or better, 24 inch wide sheet feed is ofthen cheaper to buy, however in the long run the paper in 36 inch rolls is the most cost effective if you look at roll feed
warning, large format is just a small printer on sterioids, but getting it serviced is often expensive due to its a "special" product, so stay away from a used one with problems
mike... we've had the HP DesignJet 500 for about 3 years now..
(24" roll feed)..
http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=119652&CMP=KAC-1F9R75590788
our standard print is Architectural "C" ( 18x24).. almost all of our projects fit that size at 1/4" scale
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/25/2005 5:53 pm ET by Mike Smith
Mike, that looks like an easy setup to get started in.
How bad is Chief Architect to learn?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
ok
the hp 500 is great , good way to go , if you can afford it
not that it is expensive, comparatively, I wold like to have one
probablly a better machine then my 750c and now maybe nore cost effective
Cheif architect
not a very hard program to learn, if you can read, have time and know construction ( in my opion, as anyone can draw a pretty box, but draw what can be built ???)
however it is not a builder, it will not tell you if spans are correct, if trusses will work, it will tell you you need a 2x7 header , things like that
thats where you come in, as a builder, you know what can be built and what cant, what availabel in materils and what is not ( wihin a budget) 14 foot bath tub. no problem chief will give you one if you want
am I being negative, no its a secret, I use cheif, and I am a design/builder, adn in a few years, maybe sooner, I will shift to strictly design and let my crews build
hardware requirements dont go by thier minimum, thats like going wiht minimum code for floor bounce, dont go there
me ......Chief verson 9.5, pent 4 ...3 ghz, 2 gig ram, open gl video card, xp pro and I still have lag times
and a few days ago I got the new vrsion of Boise Cascades joist program. minimum of 1 gig ram required
lastly buying used chief, caution. you can find used version of Chief at various places, but most used version are not upgradable as they are not so much seriel number specific but buyer specific. current version is version 10. buy a used version 8 and you are million miles behind, and used , no tech support.
Edited 3/25/2005 6:35 pm ET by Isamemon
blue.... you can download a demo.. it will not let you save or print..
my problem with Chief is that i'd rather be doing something else.. which makes it hard to learn.. but if you are a video gamer.. and you have some discipline... you can pick it up pretty well..
as long as you don't log onto BT..
i started with vs. 5 in '97.. now running 10.02.... it's a lot better than working off a drawing board.. you can handle as many projects as you have time for..
with a drawing board it was always whatever was taped to the board..
i had some training in architectural design and drafting ( 4 semesters ).. so i've been doing our design work since '73... adn a little engineering background from the army.. so the typical engineering we see in homebuilding is fairly rudimentay..
anything beyond that i hire a PE
it always surprises me the number of people in the building trade who do not have design capabilities so i guess it's one of our strengths
Chief can do so many things.. so can a lot of them... there seems to be some concensus among people i talk to that some programs are better...but the fastest set of construction drawings will come from a Chief DesignerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
A client gave me this.
I have switched the apparatus on it to a Mutoh arm thingy.........I need to put one of those parallel slide thingys on it.
Room gets northern light, I have a nice little cd player.............nice way to relax.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Mike, that looks like a nice setup. We had a similar one at the office where I used to work; I think it was an older HP they don't make anymore. 24" roll. Slow as death but did a nice job. They leased theirs--seems like the way to go if cash is tight (when isn't it?).
BTW, I just saw your pics from JLC in another thread. I was there with my friend George--we had dinner at Angelo's Friday nite based on your recommendation. I'm pretty sure we sat at the same table you took the picture from! Good food, but man, neither of us had ever heard of getting spaghetti and sausage or meatballs with french fries! Is that a RI thing? Next year I won't be shy, we'll have to meet up. Or I'll see you this summer at Calvin's.
Mike
yes.. we had smelt..... agli olio....calamari....and antipasto.... and lots of little plates.. just kept passing everything around until it was gone... oh, yeah.. a glass of red , since we weren't running any saws or nail guns..
fries ?... of course
did you stop by the Chief Architect booth ?... or the Softplan ?.. even VectorWorks was thereMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I didn't have time to make it to the software booths on Friday--I was showing George around, looking at stuff of mutual interest which was more in the tools and materials category. Planned to interrogate the software guys on Saturday but didn't feel well at all and had to bail.
I went to two excellent seminars on Friday, one on selling kitchens and baths by Shawn McCadden, and one on wiring a home for hi-tech by Helen Heneveld. Both were really, really good presenters, the end of the class came way too soon. Can't wait for next year. Do you and your guys go to the seminars, or just the floor stuff?
Mike
just the floor...but alot of hte seminars are free on the floor..
took in Michael Byrnes and his tile act... really like his talksMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
oh ... U went o JLC?
I didn't know ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
But I am trying to figure out which JLC that he went to.John Leggott College http://www.leggott.ac.uk/sections/beacon/beacon_welcome.htmlJames Lumber Center for the Performing Arts
http://www.clcillinois.edu/aboutclc/fac_grayslake.aspThe Junior League of Chicago
http://www.jlchicago.org/index.cfm/fa/snp.news/nid/163/y/
Seems like good food- stuff to increase your ignoranceall the more.!
what's this got to do with blueprints ???
Hey Guys thanks for all the replies. I don't have a lot of time to learn how to use the software most of you are talking about right now as its time to get some work done after a long winter. Would any of you guys like to take a look see at what I need? I've convinced the cust. that its the best way to go. I could send the original prints plus all other pert. data.
I'm not sure why you would want to do all that re-scaling for PDF. I can set paper size of the pdf at that 22x34 or any other size I want, and set scale to the scale i want it to be printed at and then print to pdf.There is another way to deal with this for outsourcing the prints too. I have the printer driver from my local print shop for the machine they use, so I can priont to their format and plunk it onto a floppy that they will print off of. Strangely enough, they won't let me email it too them. virus fears maybe, i don't know.Cost issues on printing - an architectural office will cjharge for the prints anyways. so anything beyond one set of prints - I charge the cost plus on to the customer.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm using an HP 9650 that will print up to 13" x 19" but you won't just walk into any old store and find paper that size. I had to order it from Staples onlinefunny thing though, I rarely need that size. The 11x17 handles most jobs at 3/16" scale which is comfortable on the eyes. 1/8" is too small for me, especially once all the electrical details are added, but 1/4" is best for carps on jiob. At 1/4" scale, it is easy to read the scale with a tape measure. My 3/16" prints dictate that you have a scale right there handy on the job
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, the plans I'm doing now are for a big addition my brother is contracting back on Nantucket. He's the kind of guy that wants every single detail worked out, in 1/2" scale, before ground is broken.
I personally have no problem filling in the blanks and scaling dimensions on site, and enjoy working out the details with the homeowners as we go, but I can respect the other viewpoint too. I know he wouldn't approve of 11x17's or 3/16" scale. I do like the idea of 18 x 24 though--sure would fit better than 24x36 on my desk. Your guys don't mind the smaller scale though?
Mike
Edited 3/25/2005 8:58 pm ET by mike maines
I prefer to work with smaller scaled drawings. I can't see the dimensions on the 1/4 scale anyways so I might as well use a drawing that I can stuff in my pouch!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
A lot depends on the amt of detail needed. A framer doesn't need as many numbers. I have been known to do a small scale for framing and then a large scale in detailed rooms like a kitchen, bathroom or recroom with lots of electronics.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I put all the pertinent dims and openning sizes on the drawing, so the scale is not that important to the guys doing the work. I'm usually there for layout too, and for problem solving if it happens to come up.scale is more important when it comes to placing some fixtures - can't put all those dims in place.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
i just recived some info from soft plan architectural design software for the basic plan software costs about 1085.00 the top of the line is about 2385.00 kinda curious myself has any one found anything cheaper? (sorry not to steal anything from your post away from you joe) thanks.
sharkey... here's a link to the Chief pricing.. looks like $1295 for a base version..
i'd recommend you get the 6 cd training cd also.. wether you get the Full version or the Base versionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Your not alone. I'm running into that same issue this year in VT. Glad you asked the question. I appreciate all the guys who replied with good info!
Mark