Boss Hog Lateral Bracing Tags or No
karteberry
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Boss, Just wondering if you guys put ‘lateral bracing required” tags on your trusses, and if so do you put them where truss engineering or cutting says it must be placed or just somewhere on the truss. Had a contractor, who I had pointed out to when the trusses were delivered to site, that the tags where to alert to bracing, but not at actual location. He put the bracing where the tags were, inspector says that will not pass. Contractor wants us to come up and redo bracing?!? WTC says those tags are not “required”, but it must be on roof cutting or engineering. Just wondered what you guys do ?
Replies
Every truss plant I know of puts bracing tags on the webs. Some do a better job than others.
I think I know what you mean. If you look at the attached example, CLBs (Continuous Lateral Braces) are required on 3 webs. The bracing symbols are shown at the center of the webs.
But the plant guys, being lazy, will put the lateral bracing tags near the bottom of the truss where it's easy to reach. (Where I put the red "X" on the webs)
The framers often don't know any better, so they put the braces where the tags are instead of in the center of the web.
Whom exactly is the "WTC" you refer to?
As far as I know, there are no specific requirements that the truss companies put the bracing tags on - It's just done as a courtesy.
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As a side note - Some longer webs in compression require 2 rows of bracing. If that's the case, those braces should be at the 1/3 points on the web.
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In the case you're talking about, how close to the center of the web are the braces actually located? If they're reasonably close, a call to the truss company might get an O.K. for where they actually fell. Or it might not. But if you're talking about a lot of bracing that needs moved it might be worth a call.
Boss, I disagree.
Those framers should be brought back and forced to fix their bracing. They learn their lesson from that and furthermore, they will be diligent in the future to do it right.
They do not have any legitimate argument to do anything else. They need to accept responsibility because they accepted the pay.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
You're certainly welcome to disagree with me - God know you have plenty of times before.I think the framers should definitely learn where the CLBs go. But saying that they should HAVE to move them in any once instance won't do anything except maybe make you feel better.Framers need time to learn stuff just like everyone else. If they have to be moved in this case, fine. But if the CLBs are O.K. where they are, what's the point?.I also think the guys in the truss plant shop should know where to put the bracing tags. Maybe if THEY had to go out once or twice and move some CLBs they'd be a little less lazy.
Q: What's the difference between a blonde and an ironing board?
A: It's often difficult to open the legs of an ironing board.
But if the CLBs are O.K. where they are, what's the point?
The point is to learn to read the specs. Learn to ask questions if the specs aren't clearly understood and to learn to be professionals.
There isn't any excuse for them to be coddled.
If the framers are the homeowners, then I take it back. If they are professionals, operating as subcontractors, then they ought to rush back over there, without question and hesitation and pull all the nails and move the lacers to where they belong. That's how I've taught my guys and guess what? It works! They know that if they choose to be lazy in their trade, it will come back to haunt them. I pay them once for being ignorant, but the second time I fire them. If I was the builder, I'd demand that the framers move the lacers or never work for me again and I'd backcharge them for moving them.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
That's kind of what I expected from you - Your basic "my way or the highway" attitude.As long as the framers learned where the CLBs need to be in the future (And it sound like they did) there's absolutely no point in forcing the framer to move them. If you tried to force me to do soemthing like that just to satisfy your own ego, I wouldn't want to ever work for you again anyway.
Strip mining prevents forest fires.
Boss, I can see Blue's point ... the trusses are sold and delivered with a set of specs and drawings that clearly show where the bracing is required. If they toss the papers and do the install "like we always do" then they are negligent. Same goes for temp bracing during installation. You have said more than once that your packages include instructions on how and where to brace the trusses. So if they don't temp brace properly and the trusses fall, who's at fault?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
This isn't temporary bracing - It's permenant bracing. CLBs are for webs that are in compression to keep them from buckling. I wasn't suggesting the bracing should not be corrected UNLESS the actual bracing was reviewed and found to be O.K. As long as the truss manufacturer stands behind it, there should be no problems from it. Blue just wants to see the framer correct the problem in order to "punish" them, even if it isn't necessary. To me, that's childish and silly.
Sometimes you go fishing to catch fish; Sometimes you go fishing just to fish.
Blue just wants to see the framer correct the problem in order to "punish" them, even if it isn't necessary. To me, that's childish and silly.
Wrong.
I want to teach them. That is my style and it has worked wonders over the years. I have tried other methods, including forgiving and forgetting and letting them 'get away with it this time" but no other method works as good as making them fix it.
Wanna hear the story about the guys who wouldn't listen to me about breaking the double top plates at least 4' from the top plate joint? I let them slide with warnings.....I warned again......I warned again....I was being a good guy. Then, the BI knocked them down one day. Three guys spent 4 hours cutting out top plates and reinstalling them.
I never saw any of them do it again.
Hmmmm? Was that a punishment? I don't think so...they should have thanked the BI and payed him for teaching them so well. Maybe I'll start charging them when they learn their lessons from me!
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I was using two examples, one for temp bracing and one for permanent.
And I still agree with Blue ... if the framers would install according to the printed specifications, there would not need to be a call to the truss plant to see if their version of bracing is ok."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I agree with Blue on this one too. The whole "good enough for who it is for" theory is way too prevalent out here in Southern California. We won't even lay out for trusses much less try to install them without the wet signed truss engineering and lay out diagram. If I can I like to run a spray paint line on the webs that require bracing, but in the end it is up to the installer to do so per specs. The weeding out of the incompetents is a never ending job in construction, and when you find the good ones you feel like you hit the lottery.
I agree Framerboy. I've done the paint thing too.
I usually assign the final lacer responsibility to the newest guy (laborer/apprentice) on the crew. I'll drop a stack of spec drawings on the new guy, give him a two minute explanation, then let him go at it. I'll watch to make sure he gets them in the middle of the strut (usually they don't). I'll watch to make sure he puts in the right amount of nails. I'll watch to make sure he braces each run (usually they don't) etc.
After this first house, I'll walk with him and inspect every sheet and put my mark on it. I tell him to do this too.
On the second house, I have him do it by himself. I have him do the walkthrough and put his mark on each sheet. When he proclaims he is done, I check it. If he passes, I never check again. I expect him to get it right forever.
I give this job to the rookies, so if they can do it, certainly a framing Professional can do it, right?!!!!
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I never suggested that it was "good enough for who it is for". Either the trusses are O.K. or they aren't. It's not like the trusses would be drasticly compromised by having the CLBs a little off center. (The OP never said how far they were away from the center of the webs)It could very well be that the CLBs did in fact need moved. Then it's a whole different ball game. But until it's known for sure, what's the point in being a hard-a$$ about it?
One good turn gets most of the blankets.
I don't think it's that cut and dried - There were extenuating circumstances. The tags WERE in the wrong place.The framer may or may not have known about CLBs - Many framers don't really understand how trusses work and what the CLBs accomplish.So I'm trying to think win/win. Like let's figure out the best solution for all involved. I don't see any reason to take a hard line and say "You fix it at your expense or else". That's hardly a way to build good business relationships.
There may be some things better than sex, and some things worse than sex. But there is nothing exactly like it.
Boss, That was exactly the case here sort of. Framer was a full time sticker, though he has done several projects with me before, so it wasn't his first time. By his own admission and his lead guys admission, the first time the engineering or a print for that matter was looked at was when WE looked at it. Was it his fault, Yes. Do we want him to be an enemy, no. Besides it was a nice day Tuesday, The G.C. was impressed we took care of it right and in a timely fashion. So while I agree with Blue, I have to look at the long term for us, and I agree with you.
Thanks for the update. I've been thinking about this thread over the past couple of days, and wondering if a thread about CLBs would be a good idea. Like I said earlier, not everyone understands exactly what they're for and why they're required. It might be interesting reading for some of the framers.If I start one, I expect you to contribute.(-:.BTW - Do you ever hang out at the forums at trussbuzz.com?
Sign in hearing aid department: Over 5,000 ears of experience.
1) I think it would be a good idea 2) I would 3 No
Boss, I would certainly like to see a thread on CLBs and other forms of truss bracing. What/how to brace is important, and so are the reasons why bracing is done that way.
The thread should help framers realize that trusses (relatively fragile roof components when on their own) will only meet their full load design capabilities when working in conjunction with proper bracing, lateral and otherwise.
" I would certainly like to see a thread on CLBs and other forms of truss bracing."
There's a thread going on CLBs here:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=87378.1
I've done a few thread on erection bracing. But they generally don't get much response. Everyone already knows all they need to know about it...
To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association--the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it. [Thomas Jefferson]
Edited 3/20/2007 7:32 am by BossHog
If you tried to force me to do soemthing like that just to satisfy your own ego, I wouldn't want to ever work for you again anyway.
I consider that as a form of baby sitting. If I had to inform you to read and follow the specs, then argue with you to fix it and do it right, I'd have been so sorry that I ever had to deal with you that I doubt that I'd ever deal with you again.
You seem to be quite forgiving about the lack of professionalism. The problem with crews like that is that the builder will discover their flaws one item at a time and eventually they will also commit some other serious act that goes un-noticed and ends up being very costly.
I don't mind anyone making mistakes, but don't stand there and make excuses and blame others...just get up there and rectify it. If they don't make mistakes and offer to fix it immediately, I'D BEND OVER BACKWARDS TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO LEAVE IT!
It's all about attitude Boss and I've dealt in the muck with too many of these characters. Yes, it is my way or the highway. It's up to me to teach these kind of guys a lesson because they obviously haven't learned any before they got this far in life.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
A great training site that Leads can direct their carps to:
http://www.alpeng.com/upload/19273/BGT_BOOK_small.pdf
I discovered this site while researching what to do about 52 mono-trusses (c/w 40' bottom cords) that were delivered with confusing bracing info. I had a heck of a time convincing others that proper and full bracing is crucial to load/wind-bearing performance, roofing longevity, and occupant safety. I prevailed, and the roof swallowed a lot of labour and 2x4s.
Payback followed because sheating was a breeze. When the BI told the General and the Owner that my roof was one of the few he'd seen that were properly braced from the get-go, I felt like I'd earned my keep.
We could discuss the all to frequent ignoring of the temporary bracing that is required for safe installation as well.
I personally have seen 3 roof structures collapse from carps not taking the time or making the effort to adequately brace trusses during erection.
Two of those required emergency medical care for the carps involved.
I've brought up erection bracing many times here on BT. I think everyone's probably tired of hearing about it...
In broadest generality, whenever a politician makes a decision--right or wrong, good or bad, corrupt or honorable--he makes enemies. [Ferdinand Lundberg]
Boss,
You are probably right.. like drinking and driving.. the message just doesn't get thru to some people.
Thanks Pierre1!
That's the best truss site I've ever visited.
As we move more into using subcontractors, I'll be sure to have a copy of that printed and made into a document that will become part of the contract language for framing subs.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Boss, WTC.. Wood Truss Council. You are right our guys in the plant put the tags at the bottom of the truss and webs. The framer didn't look at the engineering we sent with the roof and put the rat runs where the tags were. I took three guys today and put them all in where they should have been. Also pointed out to the framer that the tags were indicative where permanent bracing goes, not exact location. It has never been an issue before but...We are now going to put tags closer to actual location...till the next time. Until last night, I thought tags were required, they are not. Location is required to be called out on engineering. In fact if you look at our tags they call out that they should be "rolled on" with plates.
Edited 3/14/2007 7:36 pm by karteberry
Edited 3/14/2007 7:37 pm by karteberry
It's just another minor incident in a long history of carpenters not bothering to read anything.
If the carpenter bothered to read the truss specs, he would have noticed that the lateral bracing was shown in the middle of the strut. When he saw the tags, he'd notice that the tags were lower than the middle. If the guy has anyting inside his knucklehead, he'd recognize this as a conflict.
What should a professional do when a conflict arises? I tell Frank he has two choices: make a decision, or make a call. I also give him( and anyone I've ever mentored) full authority to make either decision. I teach him to balance the risks. If the risks are small (moving a few lacers is a small risk), then make the decision. If the risks are large, make the call.
These guys have cellphones on thier hips and take calls all day long from their wives and pregnant girlfriends. Perhaps they might start using the cells to call the truss companys or superintendents, eh?
I feel no pain for them. All they have to do, is do their jobs.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Sorry - I kinda forgot who you were and that you were involved in the business. You need to post more so I remember. (-:We use tags from the WTCA (Or TPI?) that are color coded, and we plate them on the webs with a 1X3. In the past, we've had framers who have torn off the CLB tags and claimed they were never on the trusses. By having color coded tags and having part of it under a plate, they can't easily do that anymore.
If walking is so good for you, why do mailmen look like that?
color coded tags and having part of it under a plate
I like that."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
having part of it under a plate,
yeah, like that too, copied the phrase before reaching the end of the thread.
Edit PS: Ron, was there a claim or lawsuit that led to that proceedure?
Edited 3/14/2007 11:47 pm ET by junkhound
"...was there a claim or lawsuit that led to that proceedure? "
I don't really know. The WTCA came out with the tags like that. I don't know who came up with the idea.
Just FYI - Here's what our bracing tags look like:
View Image
As a rule, he who has the most information will have the greatest success in life. [Disraeli]
We get tags too....sometimes. It depends on the truss company.
I view the tags as a courtesy, but they certainly aren't a substitute for reading and following the written specs.
Boss, I think you are mischaracterizing my position as being a hard a$$ about lacers. My position isn't about lacers, it's about the framers attitude, which was/is typically far below normal business standards. I thought about how I probably missed lacers in my early years of setting trusses...mainly because I never saw a spec sheet for the first ten years that trusses were sent out. I never knew spec sheets existed, but when they first arrived in a package, I was thrilled to study them and to learn everything I needed to know about the trusses I was using.
I dont think that type of mentality is exceptional or anything to pat myself on the back about. It's about as basic as could be expected to work with products and materials in our trades. Maybe using the word thrilled is over the top, but certainly the guys in the field, who's in charge should take an active role in understanding his building components and if he fails to get things right, he should be EMBARRASSED.
Embarassed is the word I use to describe myself when ANY CALL COMES IN REGARDING SOMETHING ABOUT OUR FRAMING THAT IS WRONG! I'm not defensive until I study the situation and prove to myself that I'm right. In the absence of that proof, I am embarassed, and willing to do anything, immediately, to rectify the situation. That workmanship warranty extends for my entire life. Even today, if one of those homeowners called and wanted me to restructure their lacers in their attic, on a home that was 25 years old, I'd send the crew out there today or tomorrow to fix it at my cost, including all materials and labor. I don't give a hoot about warranty schedules....I'm willing to do what I said I was going to do.
If there is one thing I'm hardnosed about it is this: If there is something wrong....don't try to pass the buck, then expect me to work with you and coddle you. If you are sincerly trying to learn something and am willing to do whatever it takes to make it right, you have earned my utmost respect and I would go to bat for you in whatever way I can, but if you want to act like a spoiled teenager, then I have no use for you. If you act that way when a simple thing like lacers are involved, I know that if a serious multithousand dollar screw up occurs, you'll be long gone, never to return to do what's right.
I use simple problems like this to guage future actions or non-actions. We all have to accept responsibility for ourselves. It's time all framers step up.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I made my case and am not going to change my mind. You've made yours and aren't going to change your mind either. So how about we let it lie, and everyone else can make up their own minds too.
Gotta run. The neighbors just sighted Elvis making crop circles.
After seeing your post this morning I shot an email off to the engineer that seals my drawings.
The answer I got was that there was no specific tolerances regarding how close to the center of a web the CLB had to be. That surprised me - I assumed there must be SOME sort of guideline.
The engineer DID mention that most webs requiring CLBs would still work with the CLB off center. So what I said in my first reply is likely true - They could very well be O.K. if they aren't TOO far from the center of the web.
But they'd have to be reviewed on a case by case basis to determine how far off canter would be acceptable on each truss.