Have a job starting Monday in which I have to completely remove a 12′ corner of a home (both ways). The home is 2×4 stick framed with plywood sheathing and stucco. The builder built some fake decrotive columns on the front of the house and they actually extend out past the gable end of the roof. Someone nailed a flimsy piece of aluminum facia over the top and it leaked like a sieve. Double top plate is rotted, studs are rotten and drywall is gone halfway up the walls. They used greenboard in the shower and it has failed and tiles are history.
Met with the homeowner this morning and he is a nut case. Wanted me start at 9:30 am because he and his wife spend 2 1/2 hours each morning on an online spirtual website. Told him no. He was okay with us starting at seven as long as we didn’t make “too” much noise. Doesn’t want us in the house without him being there for security reasons. I explained I didn’t know what I was going to find once I open up the walls and that may be a problem. He was okay with that.
Superintendant calls up this afternoon and tells me to brace up the roof trusses from the OUTSIDE of the building by building a temporary A-Frame wall under the truss tails (subfacia). Ten foot walls with a sloping grass landscape under the tails. This will leave me 16″ between the framing and the temporary support wall in which to work. Now I’m a pretty skinny guy and everything but this just sounds retarded. I have to remove the plywood and the studs and replace as I go. I am also in East central Florida and I have afternoon thunderstorms to contend with. I know he is bowing to the HO wishes to avoid being inside the home and I am no structural engineer but this just seems wrong to me.
So basically I am being instructed to support a roof load by placing bracing under 2×4 top truss chords instead of placing braces inside under the bottom chords. Albeit they are only 16″ and the drywall will act as some lame shear wall does this sound safe?
I have worked with this super for nineteen years on and off and this one is being dropped in my lap but I have serious issues with doing it this way. I am meeting him tommorow to get scaffolding and crap set up for Monday and I am going to try to convince him this is the wrong way to do this.
Am I worrying over nothing here?
Thanks.
Replies
If it were a job I had a choice of taking or leaving, and apparently you don't, I would run, not walk, away from it. But...I don't know what to tell you. I think you are right, but you can hope that the roof sheathing and any cross bracing inside the trusses will help hold it all together. Just go slow and watch for signs of failure and shifting and such.
Just a thought, but is there any way you could really nail the heck out of some sort of triangular brackets going from the subfascia to near the base of the gable walls, or better yet, sort of extensions of the front and back walls that are well triangulated so they angle and support back to the base of those walls which could resist loads? I'm imagining extending the top plate of the front and back walls out as far as the gable overhang and then using some serious timbers angled back to the base of those walls, a cross member at the top to keep the two brackets from spreading and then "rafters" to support the top cords of the gable end truss. I'm hoping I'm sort of understanding the condition you are going to encounter.
I'm hoping this is a single story house? But beefy angled brackets going back to a sound wall or the foundation walls would be a lot better than bracing it down to God knows what kind of soil, especially if it is sloped. Or park a big freaking truck (like a dump truck) inder the gable to help catch it if it falls!
If I am not understanding you, consider this a "bump" to push your question up the list so others can take a stab at answering it.
Thanks for the reply but the problem is I have to remove the plywood and studs from the exterior while the roof is braced. I only have a 16" overhang. The more I sit here and think about this the more I want to call the boss. I don't have much choice in walking away unless I quit. I will voice my concerns tomorrow and take it up with the GC if needed.This is a 6/12 gable roof with shingles but I don't have the specs on how much weight is on these walls. It is permitted but under a restoration permit which doesn't require drawings or engineering.I have a good knowledge of construction and we have always braced from inside. This just seems like the wrong way to do this.
If it was me, I would make sure to get the orders IN WRITING and SIGNED by the sup and the HO. ALSO, write up your objections and the reasons for them and have the SUP and the HO sign that they have read them. That way if the poo hits the air recirculating system in one of the various possibilities you are not the one hung out flapping in the wind.
It is a sorry state of affairs, that we have to do things like this, but with playing CYA by sups, subs and others as well as a HO who will lie if they tell you someting and you warn them and they say fine go ahead - nothing in writing and you held responsible. I am not saying that everyone is like that, but there are enough that you have to protect yourself or you could find yourself on the hook for some big money.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
I am just the pawn in this game as I work for the GC. Showed up Monday morning and began removing the soffit and facia. The "spirtual" wife came out with the dog in one hand and a joint in the other. I petted the dog and passed on the joint. TS Alberto showed up around 9am and we secured the lumber and scaffolding and retreated. GC get's a call at 4pm asking why we didn't do what I said we'd get done (i.e. removing 30' of stucco from west wall) DUH! Didn't show up again today as thunderstorms and wind were non-stop. Get another call today from HO worrying about the schedule. We have five weeks in the contract that starts on JUNE 19TH and I figure three weeks at most.How much of a raise should I demand for this? ;-)
That's what you get for passing on the joint. You missed your chance to bond with these clients. Next time hit the joint Clinton style.
blue
You're probably right, but it's a slippery slope... then he'll have to start bringing weed to work himself, and offering them some.
I gave that stuff up the day after high school graduation. It doesn't bother me if other people smoke it I just choose not to. Update: Got the entire west side stucco removed and found termite trails up 2 rows of plywood and 30' down the entire wall. Pulled the fake column off the front of the house and found not only no studs left but the plywood had decomposed into a pile on the concrete slab. Discovered the top chord of the trusses are 2x6 so I braced the hip King only (6' run) and when I pulled the stucco in front of the shower I got everything! I'm talking stucco, plywood, rotted off studs, damp draywall and tile. I even got the towel bar with the towel still hanging on it!I'm beat. I secured it for the night and met with the GC. I took digital pictures at every "discovery" and at the end of the day to show it was dried in for the evening.I'll keep this post updated and post the pics online this weekend.
A simple pin and socket gate hinge is an easy lift off. Get four - two top each side and two bottom each side
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Tough call cuz it sounds like you're pretty locked in with this super.
All I can tell you is this. I'd do a job like that in heartbeat. I love stuff like that. BUT.... there's no way I'd do it anyone else's way but mine if I had any liability involved in the project what-so-ever. Basically, we'd do it my way..... or I'm your new employee. There's just too many things that can go wrong doing something like that. You know what your gut is telling you. If they want me to cook dinner, they gotta let me shop for the groceries, know what I mean?
Now, that homeowner...... he might just be the deal breaker for me. Tread lightly. Get compensated fairly. And trust your gut. That's the best I got for you.
Thanks. I agree with you and will make my case in the morning with the super. This is a 17K job and we currently have 3.6 Mil worth of contracts. Not only would I be putting the companies reputation on the line but my safety and my helpers safety. It's just a bad idea.
The super's plan is ridiculous. There will be no room for you to work or maneuver materials safely. The shoring should be inside the house. Support the bottom chord of the trusses and then block up from there to the top chord so that both are supported. That's basic, but you already know it. If they want the job done you have to go in the house, period. They should move their computer to a temporary inner sanctum and do the spiritual thing there, so you can commune freely with your inner carpentry child and open up the remodeling chakra. Shee-it!
I used to work for a guy who made ridiculous promises to the HO during the sales process. I was always the one who had to go break the bad news and burst their bubble. Who needs it. I was talking to some folks this morning who want their master bedroom and bathroom remodeled extensively, and I told them that it would be somewhat similar to the invasion of Baghdad. People's expectations have to be managed correctly.
Like DP, I do this kind of thing all the time. Just take it easy and thinkit thru. The material setup I could handle but the owners being a weird baskeetcase is what screws the job from my POV. As a contractor, I'd have suggested they spend a week on vacation visiting disney world or the inlaws
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I mentioned the HO was a "Nut case" and that is probably not politically correct but the guy has at least 40 windchimes hanging in his trees. The exterior of this wall is opposite of his masterbath and closet. One day of bracing shouldn't effect his lifestyle much. I have made up my mind. My way or no way. Thanks to all who responded.
Not sure I have the interior floor plan clear but can you build an interior load bearing partition with plywood that will carry the trusses, and solve the security issues at the same time?
I would indeed cite safety for both yourself and the occupants to your boss. If those trusses fail because you've supported the top chord, it could ruin the feng shui of the house.
Norse
No way would I ever go for holding trusses up by the overhangs.
How about angled braces going from 3' or so away from the house up under the top plates?
I see what you are saying but I have to remove the double top plates also. This is a 12' run and there is a closet approximately 6' from the exterior corner which is not a load bearing partition but I think it would help some. I'm going to have to put something inside atleast for a few hours whether anyone likes it or not. I'm on my way over in an hour to have a meeting with everyone about this. I'll post back what the outcome is.Thanks.
You have already left but I'll pipe in anyway...Norse and a couple others are right.Have the homeowner take a day to stay in the house so they can watch.Build another bearing wall 10 to 12 inches in from the outside wall. Cover the inside of that with plywood, or drywall, or whatever makes the homeowner happy.Make sure there is extra support under the floor under your new bearing wall.Now the HO has a complete and secure new "outside wall", while you R&R the real outside wall. When you have finished demo, rebuild, sheathing, and siding... then you can go back inside for a day, remove your temp wall, and drywall the real outside wall.Or does your HO also expect you to demo the outside wall, rotten studs and plates and all.... and never disturb their drywall ???
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
The super probably promised them that.
Alright, met with the GC, super and the HO yesterday morning. They have all agreed on doing it my way now. After debating for 45 minutes the Home owners wife piped in and said "Why can't we just use the other bathroom while they are doing this?" This was an option?!!!I talked to the GC alone this afternoon and told him that we all need to work on communications a little better. Another one of my pet peeves I'll save for another post. ;-)Thanks again for all the responses.
I would still use the suggestion about creating a partition wall comepletely sealing them in and you out.make sure they are there, that way there will be no trust or dust issue!!These sound like the kind of people that could give you a whopper of a headache if you don't cover your a$$!!
Not to sure if this is a possibility but in situations like this I have put in a floating header, a pair of 2x12's nailed together with a piece of angle iron lagbolted to the bottom of each side of the header.
The header will be installed in the attic and can stay there after you are long gone. A pair of 1/2"x2-1/2" into each chord is how I do it.
The header will span from the gable wall to the closest interior wall parallel to the trusses. Lag bolt the header to the bottom chord of each truss it intersects and place the right sized blocking on top of each wall to place the weight on each wall. A pair of 2x4's around 4' long on each wall is usually good.
This way you in this weirdo's house for an hour or two and then your outside for the rest of the time. I wouldn't do this if the trusses are monsters or if there is any other rooflines crashing in with large weight issues.
I only golf on days that end with a "Y".