We have a customer who has a circuit which continues to pop it’s breaker.
The circuit provides power to two GFCI protected receptacles, each in a different bathroom. It may power more receptacles, at this point I’m uncertain.
This problem occurred once before, the electrician came in and found a loose connection, fixed it and checked receptacles, switches etc. in adjacent rooms to make sure there were no other loose connections. Problem was solved for well over a month, maybe as much as two.
Today I get a phone call that again, when they use their hair dryer, it pop’s the breaker and the breaker is apparently “locked” in the off position.
I don’t know much about electricity, any advice?
Replies
A typical hair dryer draws 1500 watts, which works out to about 12.5 amps. If the circuit breaker that's popping is 15 amps, it wouldn't take much more to overload it.
If this is an older house, that one circuit is probably snaked all over the place. Someone may be trying to make a cup of coffee or a piece of toast in the kitchen while they're using the hair dryer.
How many megawatts does it take to run that hair dryer? When my daughters were still living at home, popping the GFCI breaker was almost a daily ritual. Three hair dryers (two daughters and SWMBO) running full tilt got it every time. After a few times, I showed them how to reset the breaker and told them to either learn to stagger their hair drying - or spend lots of time flipping the breaker switch - lol.
Is the breaker locked open or in the mid position? You need to turn it off before you turn it back on.
Since this circuit is feeding two bathrooms; there is possibly a shared neutral. That will cause nuisance tripping.
Edited 7/19/2006 10:22 pm ET by HowardM
" breaker is apparently "locked" in the off position."
I don't know what you mean by that.
But I suspect that you might have a bad breaker.
It is not unknow for breakers to trip at lower current levels.
Also I ran into one on a dryer where the wire was loose on the breaker cause local heating which caused it to trip early.
A bad connection between the breaker and bus bar can cause the same problems.
For a very rediculous fee I will make the trip to Larryville and consult about this.
I'd buy a cup of coffee for the trip... ;)
that cover your fee lol? Just yesterday I was all over KC, burned over 20 gallons of fuel...
Anyway, I'm calling the electrian tomorrow but I'd like to have somewhat of an idea of what it could be.
I do not know the wattage of the hair dryer, thought I did ask if they were running anything else at the same time. They didn't not think so, but I do not know what other devices are on that circuit.
I haven't looked at the breaker I recieved the call this evening, the homeowner said he could not flip it back after it popped.
Edited 7/19/2006 10:23 pm ET by CAGIV
"I'd buy a cup of coffee for the trip... ;)that cover your fee lol?"That won't even get me to the stateline."I haven't looked at the breaker I recieved the call this evening, the homeowner said he could not flip it back after it popped."That could be a dead short on it also. Someone that knows what is going on can tell the difference, but it can be confusing.Worked on one just like that last week.It went out right after all the rain last thursday (wednesday?). And they called the power company although it only affected one circuit. But they might not have realized it. It covered part of a finished basemnt and then went outside for some lights and a fountain.Took a couple of hours of search and still might not have found it but I noticed a switch mounted on the outside about a ft off the ground. They said that it was for the fountain.I dug below it and found a handfull of splices in the dirt, with ordinary wirenuts and tapes.Never found the actual problem, but it was in the circuit for the fountain and the fountain had failed earlier (or it might have been the power). But it was HOT and a lot of it was under concrete so bypassed it.
Edited 7/20/2006 12:44 am by BillHartmann
BTW, what a breaker closing into a short will click - from the mechnanical arm moving the contact over, a POP - from the arching at the contact, and 2nd click as the breaker trips. That is all in a very short fraction of a second.
Normally its a weak breaker that needs replaced . Once that has been done it needs the amperage tested on this line with the phantom hair dryer running .
DW always plugs in curling iron as well and leaves it on. I suspect there is a curling iron in the deal as well.
Electrician will figgure it out .
Tim
Can you get them to try a different hair dryer? It is possible that the ultimate source of the problem is the hair dryer, though I don't understand why the breaker is tripping rather than the GFCI outlet.Take the breaker out and see if there is any signs of arcing; smell of smoke or discoloration. If so, replace the breaker.
"Can you get them to try a different hair dryer? It is possible that the ultimate source of the problem is the hair dryer, though I don't understand why the breaker is tripping rather than the GFCI outlet."On current or tempature rises that it thinks are over current (such as bad a bad connection with the circuit or bus bar).A GFCI trips because amount of current in the hot leg differs from that in the neutral by 0.005 amps.TWO completely different processes. While some faults, such as direct short from hot to ground, are big enough to cause either one to trip they it has to be at a point where both would see it. That is a AFTER the GFCI. If the there is a short in the wiring up to the GFCI receptacle the GFCI won't see the problem.
A GFCI only trips on the difference in currents in the two legs--not on the absolute current. It can only take 10 milliamps going through your body to kill you. A circuit breaker is way to insensitive and too slow to help. A GFCI can carry the full load (20 amps) as long as it is going out and coming back equally.
I would check that all connections were good, that the GFCI's were wired correctly, and replace the breaker ($3-$9)
I had this once w/ a friends house........turns out they had an attic fan added (near the ridge, above the bath), and the guy tapped off the wire above the bath (feeding the GFCI), so if they ran a blow dryer when the attic fan was running........pop.
Stranger things have happened..........
Bill,
You don't happen to know anyone in KC or surrounding area looking for a 6' Pella Designer Series French door do you?
Long story short I miss-ordered one and looking to sell the "extra"
I saw that.No I don't.
Youre about to wear me out checking the thread . LOL>
What did the electrician find ?
Drop the other boot wud ya ? hehehe
Tim
Well the electrian went and looked at it today.
Prognosis is, that it is most likely a weak C/B that is causing the problem, he recommended replacing the breaker now and seeing if that works. The hair dryer is rated at 1875 watts and was running on a 15 AMP GFCI breaker which was poping. The wierd thing is that the hair dryer works fine on the 15 AMP circuit on an extention cord from the hallway.
I guess time will tell.
At this point re-wiring the bathroom for a 20 AMP line isn't pratical.
Breaker is tripping due to overload.
Repeated tripping has caused breaker to fail. That's why it won't re-set. Generally molded-case breakers (as used in residential panels) are good for a few trips, then they fail. Most fail safe, or in the "off" position. The idea behind this limited life for breakers is that an overload or short cirtcuit shouldn't happen in a properly designed and maintained system. Having a breaker trip should be a rare occurrance.
Think this is poor engineering on the part of the panel and breaker manufacturers? Well, what does a 15 or 20 amp single pole breaker cost? Around $6-8 bucks for a plain vanilla GE or a Homeline (Sq-D)? They're inexpensive, and just aren't designed to take the abuse of overload of short circuit repeatedly. Breakers could be designed and manufactured to handle dozens of trips, but at several times the current cost. Why design and manufacture a product for something that shouldn't happen, and if it does, when replacement is cheaper by far than building a more robust breaker?
It's really interesting--homeowners often will continue to have a breaker trip, and reset it, many times over weeks or months, expecting the cause fo the tripping to somehow magically resolve itself. On the other hand, the thing about an overload, it takes an awareness of what's on the circuit, when and how long it's being used, and how much current the various loads draw to make any sense of an overload trip. Using two hair dryers at the same time on the same circuit doesn't trip the breaker every time, because they both may have to be on "high" for 10 minutes or more to trip the breaker (a 20 amp breaker will carry a lot more than 20 amps for a little while before tripping--it doesn't trip at 20.1 amps).
Solution: run new circuits, one to each bathroom for the receptacles.
Cliff
You said, "I don't know much about electricity, any advice?"
Yes, tell them to hire an electrician.
Gee thanks for the Stellar piece of advice
I also said
"Anyway, I'm calling the electrian tomorrow but I'd like to have somewhat of an idea of what it could be."
Sometimes things actually work the way they're supposed to. The breaker just might be tripping because there is something wrong. Call the electrician- or try another one!
Weak breaker? Breaker only able to trip a few times? Codswhallop! In the course of testing by UL, sample breakers, taken at random from the production line, are cycled and tripped thousands of times. True, there are things that, over time, can damage a breaker- but almost all of the time, the breaker is NOT the problem.
"Codswallop"? Wow, what a great word. I had to look it up...you learn something new every day.
Reno, I'm interested in how you know that in the course of UL testing, breakers are cycled and tripped "thousands of times". Have you worked for UL or a breaker manufacturer?
The stuff I've seen from breaker manufacturers like GE and Square-D says that their breakers meet applicable UL (and various other standards organizations) standards.
I believe that is UL 489, the Underwriters Laboratories Standard which covers molded case circuit breakers. (For the non-electrician--that's the technical term for garden-variety branch circuit breakers. Molded-case breakers are sealed and are not maintainable, whereas some breakers , typically larger amperage breakers, can be opened and the contacts and other parts maintained).
UL 489 requires, among other things, that under short-circuit conditions, the CB interrupt the circuit twice and still function normally. In the first test, the faulted circuit is closed on the CB, and in the second, the same CB is closed on the fault. After these tests, the CB must still be functional and pass a dielectric test.
My source here is EC&M magazine: http://ecmweb.commag/electric_circuit_breaker_not/index.html. The UL standard at $500 is not something on my bookshelf, since I don't work for UL and am not a breaker manufacturer. BTW, I've found this same info (two trips) about UL 498 in other reputable secondary sources.
Notice that UL 489 requires that the breaker work after experiencing a short-circuit fault twice, in a scenario very much like what would happen if a branch circuit experienced a short circuit--the breaker trips because of the fault, and then the breaker is re-set on the fault. Which of course (again for you non-electricians), is the wrong way to do things--if a breaker trips, it's important to figure out why it tripped, and fix the problem before re-setting the breaker.
I believe there is no corresponding test or performance criterion for overload tripping. Maybe some day I'll get to a reference library with a copy of UL 489 and have a look...yea, right!
Anyway, if the UL standard requires the breaker to operate normally after at leaset two short-circuit overcurrent trips, do you think breaker manufacturers are going to design and build product that is infinitely durable? And with no requirement (at least that I can find) for durability under overload conditions, do you think manufacturers are going to build breakers that endure overload trips "thousands of times"? Greater durability = higher cost.
The durability requirement of UL 489 is consistent with what I've observed in the field; a breaker that has opened several times due to a short circuit sometimes fails. And I've seem the same thing for breakers that in all likelihood have been subject to repeated overload tripping. In either instance, if its tripped too many times, the breaker fails and just won't re-set.
This is not to say that every breaker inevitably fails if it's tripped just a few times. Although your profile doesn't indicate what your trade is, given your comments, I assume you're an electrician. How many years of experience do you have, and in that experience, haven't you occasionaly seen a breaker fail? A failed breaker is not usually the original source of the problem, rather it's the result of not addressing the short circuit or overload before re-setting the breaker.
Cliff
Fair enough... I have spent most of my working life in a number of fields that touched upon either electrical work, or testing. For the past five years or so I have been doing electrical contracting. Not that that makes me any kind of special expert... I have one of the most senior memberships in the IAEI- the electrical inspectors' group- though, again, that only means I've lots of copies of their dry magazine! I don't have a copy of the specific UL standard handy, so I must admit to "winging it" some. Over the years, I have read an enormous number of their standards, and participated in their testing. One aspect of every one of their testing projects is that multiple standards are referenced- any product is certain to be subjected to environmental, mechanical, and cycling tests that are not directly related to the function of the device. One example might be vibration testing- putting the item on a table, and shaking the dickens out of it for a few days.... then seeing if it still works. The tests are attempts to both simulate reality, and provide engineering information. For example, it is not unreasonable to infer that something that can safely interrupt a 10,000 amp arc twice will also be capable of opening under a 100% overload a lot more often. And, yes, the things are strapped down, literally switched "on" and "off" thousands of times (while not loaded), then tested to see if they still work. Have I seen breakers fail? Sure- but I've not seen one just stop working, without there being another factor. I will admit that anyone can make a "lemon," but some folks would have you believe that this occurs to at least one breaker in every box. I contest that! The biggest causes I've seen of breaker failure?
Heat is a big one... run 22 amps all day through a 20 amp breaker, and it will have a short life.
Environmental factors... moisture, corrosion, Mississippi River mud... will also interfere with a breaker's operation. (Are you listening, NOLA?).
Design has an effect. It's no accident that certain breakers are regarded as "junk," and no longer manufactured. My main point is... if a breaker trips, you're best off starting with the assumption that the breaker tripped for a reason- and spend your time looking for that reason!. Too often, I've seen folks immediately assume the breaker, the GFI, the switch were 'no good,' when there really was something else wrong. A little story to make the point. A property management firm called me, as one of their rentals 'had no power downstairs.' On arrival, I found an OLD house, with a fuse box. I found a perfectly good fuse wrapped in tin foil- someone thought the fuse was blown, and this was their "fix." Still, "no power" downstairs. That is, you flipped the light switch, and nothing happened. At that point, the other tenant arrived, and exclaimed "I forgot to tell you I took the bulb, because I needed it upstairs." Imagine- wrapping the fuse with foil, when the real problem was NO LIGHT BULB!
Reno,
We're on the same wavelength--breakers fail for a reason. In my experience, repeated tripping is one of the common ones. I agree with you that environmental conditions like dust, moisture, or elevated ambient temp will accelerate failure.
Cliff
Cliff, can you give us a workable URL for the EC&M magazine article you reference?
O.K., let's try this:
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_circuit_breaker_not/
If that doesn't do it, go to http://ecmweb.com, to EC&M on line magazine, to the archives for EC&M mag, to Jan 1, 1998.
Cliff
p.s. Just tested it, the hot link works for me. C.
Edited 7/25/2006 11:55 am ET by CAP
I just had an electrician add a GFCI to an older home. He refused to take the GFCI off an existing circuit. He ran a new 20amp. line drirecty from the panel. I had him run a 12/3 and capped off the additional ine for future use. Added a junction box in a knee wall closet.
Surprising what some Pros do on new homes. I had a new home that shared the same GFCI between two exterior outlet, a 1/2 bath and then the master bath. When ever it tripped I had to travel two flights of stairs and go outside to the porch to reset.... Can't understand the lack of logic in this. Maybe the wire was less expensive than an additional GFCI. Probably wouldn't hold true now with the price of cable.
In the "olden days" GFCI's where relatively expensive and prone to failure.And code did not require separate circuits in bathrooms.My house was wired like that. One circuit looped through 1 bathroom, 2 1/2 baths, and 2 outdoor recpt.I understnad the plan was to install a GFCI breaker and replace it after inspection.I don't know if they did that or not, but there was none when I moved in and still none.In another forum that has come up....
"And in one case someone found a gfci in a closet that feed the garage recpts."That was my cousin in Coatesville, PA. It was a new house and he had to call the sales office and get help because by the time we realized the Bathroom was out the closet was full of boxes and the GFCI was hidden. I couldn't find a GFCI anywhere. ....
My friend also had the same problem. The offending outlet in his house was in the back of a closet off the entry way. ...
"Outdoor recepticals should have been on the home inspectors checklist."Maybe they were!! As a home inspector I've had many occasions when I had to go searching for the GFCI after testing ext. oulets. One, in a double wide, was in the master bath about 8" above the floor between the water closet and vanity cabinet. The other was a 60 y/o house that had been owner "improved". The GFCI was on a vertical framing member in the attic and not visible from the ladder. The buyer's mother mentioned hearing a "click" in the attic when we were outside the garage.
Good stories ..lol
My present house has the kids bath and master back to back. The GFCI in the kids bath was getting old and taking out all the lights in our bath. If our GFCI trips we have to crawl back in the whirlpool cabinet to reset that circuit.
Would have a good conversation if I ever ran into the electrician that wired this house.
Did you try a new breaker? They do go bad.
Does the hair dryer blow the breaker on any other circuits? If so, get a new hair dryer.
We could build a new house at the time its taking this electrician. <G>
Tim